What is the 'work' that may or may not get burned up in 1 Corinthians 3:8-16?

[FreeGrace]

Again, God see's before hand through His foreknowledge, who will be saved and who will not, but it is still each person's choice.

Because He see's the end from the beginning, doesn't mean He chooses who will and who will not will be saved.

The Bible disagrees with you strongly. He most certainly DOES choose who He will save.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

Now, since your view contradicts the Bible, please explain God being well pleased to save those who believe ISN'T a choice on His part. This should be interesting. Where's the popcorn?

Romans 11:29 doesn't say God's gifts are irrevocable, those are your words which is why you don't post the actual scripture, you post your own opinion, then tag it with a scripture reference.

This seems to be the pattern with the OSAS camp.

It's either posting half a scripture, and another half a scripture, then leave out the context and viola: Instant heresy.

Here is what Romans 11:29 says -

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29

The gifts and calling together are irrevocable.

Also - Irrevocable in the original Greek, doesn't even mean what you are claiming it means.

For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. KJV

without repentance - Strong's G278 - ametamelētos

not repentant of, unregretted

God does not regret calling Israel into covenant, even though they have been disobedient.

29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. Romans 11:29-31

Anyone can see for themselves how the various Bible translations render the word at this link:
http://biblehub.com/romans/11-29.htm

Now, the only issue for you is to prove that the meaning of "unregretted" or "not repentant of" can STILL result in taking back the gift. One would only have to find some verse where God removed a gift.

 

[FreeGrace]

We don't need no education!

Also seems the "want" is wanting. ;)

 

[JLB]

The Bible also says that the gifts of God are irrevocable. Do you believe this or not?

No!

The bible says the gifts and calling, not just gifts...

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29

The gift, expressed through the call, is conditional based on believing.

Believing for a while then returning to unbelieving, violates the condition by which the gift is obtained.

Hear it straight from the gift Giver:

He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:16

Believe = Saved
Believe for a while then return to unbelieving = condemned



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Those who believe, and are "in Christ" are secure.

Those who believe for a while, and do not abide in Him, are not secure.

How come this claim has never been shown from Scripture? Just saying it doesn't EVER make it true.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

So prove from Scripture that not abiding means "not saved". I've already explained what "abiding" means. Which has to do with fellowship, a concept that seems totally missing from your theology, sadly.

If abiding is related to the state of salvation, then salvation would depend upon US, not on Christ, as the Bible teaches. Just as the prodigal physically left his father, meaning he no longer was abiding with him, so the believer can leave the Lord. Yet, just as the prodigal remained a son, though not abiding, so the believer remains a child of God, though not abiding.

You've not proven otherwise. All your claims have been only opinions, without any Scriptural support.

And Jesus refuted such man made ideas in Rom 10:28 and 29 by teaching who holds who. It is God who holds His children in His hand, and NO ONE, meaning no person (which would also include the believer himself) can remove the believer (even himself) from the hand of God. Because NO ONE is greater than God.

If a believer had the ability, power, authority, etc to remove them self from the hand of God, then Jesus was indicating that such a person was GREATER than God.

So the logical conclusion is that those who claim that they can lose salvation (removed from God's hand by whatever reason) are GREATER than God.

Those who do not: abide in Him, remain connected to Him, continue to be joined to Him, continue to be in Him, continue to have Him...

Have no eternal security, because eternal life is conditional on remaining connected to Him.

Nonsense, as just proven from Jesus' own words about who holds who.

Apart from Him, there is no promise of eternal life.

Correct. Those who have never believed have no eternal life.

Jesus Christ Himself is our eternal life: Knowing Him is eternal life.

Putting one's faith in Christ is HOW they know Him. And once they know Him, they are eternally secure.

Your theory seems to be that those who cease to believe cease to have ever known Him.

 

[JLB]

How come this claim has never been shown from Scripture? Just saying it doesn't EVER make it true.

Now your claiming you don't need to be "in Christ" to be saved.:drool

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:2,6

Those who are in Christ, yet do not remain in Him, are cast into the fire and burned.


Is that you "idea" of eternal life, Freegrace, being cast into the fire and burned?

Jesus gives the example of those who are in Him, yet do not remain in Him, are are cast into the fire and are burned.

Your denial of this, doesn't make OSAS true.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I asked this:
"The Bible also says that the gifts of God are irrevocable. Do you believe this or not?"

No!

Well, there you go. But good to know. I'm not very interested in debating those who don't believe the Bible yet claim to be Christians.

btw, I wonder why the first question was not answered:
The Bible says that eternal life is a gift of God. Do you believe this or not?

The bible says the gifts and calling, not just gifts...

So, somehow, the words "and calling" changes EVERYTHING? Is that it? Really? How absurd! Please explain how those 2 words refutes my belief about Rom 11:29.

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29

Of course.

The gift, expressed through the call, is conditional based on believing.

Of course. Your point?

Believing for a while then returning to unbelieving, violates the condition by which the gift is obtained.

OK, let's get over this man-made up stuff. Unless that can be shown from Scripture, please just STOP making stuff up.

He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:16

I didn't anything about ceasing to believe. Still making stuff up, I see. Please don't.

Believe = Saved
Believe for a while then return to unbelieving = condemned
JLB

Until someone can prove this from the Bible, rather than just making stuff up, there is no reason to believe it.

 

[FreeGrace]

Now your claiming you don't need to be "in Christ" to be saved.

Unless you can cite the quote and post # from which it came, please retract this nonsense. I've claimed no such thing.

I've explained what being "in Christ" means and how one becomes "in Christ" many times. Your claim is shameful.

Since you believe that salvation can be lost, I think you'd better start worrying about all your shameful claims and where all that will lead.

 

[JLB]

Putting one's faith in Christ is HOW they know Him. And once they know Him, they are eternally secure.

False!

Once they are reconciled to Him, and are in Him, they must remain in Him, or be cast into the fire and burned.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

That's why we are taught to continue in the faith, to the end.

21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:21-23

Faith in Christ = Salvation
Faith in Christ for a while = Salvation for a while

In Him = Eternal Life
In Him for a while = Eternal life for a while

Believe = Saved
Believe for a while = Saved for a while


JLB

 

[Mike]

I'm giving this thread a breather with the intention of reopening it after you've had a little while to reconsider saying such things as:

• That is laughable.
• You should be ashamed of your claims.
• This is nonsensical.
• I choose to believe God's Word over your opinions.

Everyone is providing an honest interpretation of scripture. If you take this much to be true, you'll see how unbecoming these kinds of comments are.

 

[Mike]

I'm opening this up again. Let's be respectful with the assumption that everyone is expressing their thoughtful and prayerful interpretation of His Word.

 

[JLB]

Well, there you go. But good to know. I'm not very interested in debating those who don't believe the Bible yet claim to be Christians.

btw, I wonder why the first question was not answered:
The Bible says that eternal life is a gift of God. Do you believe this or not?

How does the gift eternal life come to be obtained by an unbeliever?

14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”
Romans 10:14-15

Before a person can receive the gift of eternal life, which is Jesus Christ Himself, they must believe the Gospel by hearing the Gospel.

• And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?

Before they can believe the Gospel, they must hear the Gospel.

• And how shall they hear without a preacher?

Before the preacher can express the call of the Gospel, he must be sent.

• And how shall they preach unless they are sent?

The gift is presented by the call of salvation through the one sent.

You have attempted to separate the gift from the calling, as if God just bestows a free gift in our pocket with no condition of believing what was heard, by those sent to call sinners to repentance.

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The resistance to interpreting 1 Corinthians 3:8-15 NASB as unbelievers and ex-believers being the work of the saved laborer that gets burned up seems to stem from the particular OSAS belief that even ex-believers still have eternal life. But Paul clearly refutes that doctrine when he says "you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. (that is, unless Christ has not really been resurrected from the dead)" (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB parenthesis mine)

If Paul and Apollos, or whoever, labors in the building of God with sloth, or with a watered down message, or with whatever else and in whatever way that does not build people up into the building blocks of the temple that will pass through the coming Fire of Judgment safely they will lose reward for their labor in the building:

"24Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. 25Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They thendo it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 27but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified (for the prize)." (1 Corinthians 9:24-27 NASB parenthesis mine)

 

[FreeGrace]

How does the gift eternal life come to be obtained by an unbeliever?

The question doesn't make sense. Only those who have believed receive the gift of eternal life. And they receive it WHEN they believe, according to Jesus in John 5:24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, HAS eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”
Romans 10:14-15

Before a person can receive the gift of eternal life, which is Jesus Christ Himself, they must believe the Gospel by hearing the Gospel.

• And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?

Before they can believe the Gospel, they must hear the Gospel.

• And how shall they hear without a preacher?

Before the preacher can express the call of the Gospel, he must be sent.

• And how shall they preach unless they are sent?

• Not sure how any of this relates to the notion of loss of salvation.

The gift is presented by the call of salvation through the one sent.

The gift is given by God Himself.

You have attempted to separate the gift from the calling, as if God just bestows a free gift in our pocket with no condition of believing what was heard, by those sent to call sinners to repentance.

I have no idea why anyone would come to such a false conclusion regarding what I believe.

I know what the Greek word for "call" means. It means "to invite". And God invites for various reasons.

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29

Correct. WHEN one believes, they RECEIVE the gift of eternal life, and since it is irrevocable, those who have received the gift of eternal life cannot lose it, or have it taken away, or revoked. And no verse says so.

 

[FreeGrace]

The resistance to interpreting 1 Corinthians 3:8-15 NASB as unbelievers and ex-believers being the work of the saved laborer that gets burned up seems to stem from the particular OSAS belief that even ex-believers still have eternal life.

Paul taught that God's gifts are irrevocable, and that eternal life is a gift of God. Since there are no verses that exclude eternal life from the gifts of God that are irrevocable, it obviously is irrevocable.

But Paul clearly refutes that doctrine when he says "you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. (that is, unless Christ has not really been resurrected from the dead)" (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB parenthesis mine)

The Bible Knowledge Comentary: New Testament says this about 1 Cot 15:2 - As the former message was an essential element in the Corinthians’ experience of ongoing salvation (the pres. tense of the verb saved focuses on sanctification), so was the latter. To reject bodily resurrection eviscerated “the gospel” and made faith vain ( eikē , “without cause” or “without success”; cf. vv. 14, 17) because it had an unworthy object (cf. 15:13, 17).

This link explains the 3 tenses (past, present, and future) that relate to "salvation".
http://www.preceptaustin.org/titus_34-8 Scroll down to the title "Three tenses of salvation".

So, the proper understanding of 1 Cor 15:2 isn't about eternal soul salvation by means of "holding fast", but rather, one's progressive sanctification (present tense salvation) is only possible IF one holds fast to the Word.

From the Grace New Testament Commentary on 1 Cor 15:2 -
"This statement, "by which also are saved, if they hold fast that word", stresses the fact that the gospel includes more than justification, which brings forth eternal life; it also includes a daily sanctification (are saved) if believers hold fast (or abide in) the word."

I'm sure there are commentaries that indicate salvation is based on on-going faith, without mention of the present tense aspect of "salvation". However, the point is that salvation in the present tense emphasizes one's sanctification, which requires on-going faith, obviously.

iow, how can a believer grow up spiritually IF they don't "hold fast" to the Word? Impossible. That is Paul's point.

What he wasn't teaching is that one must continue to believe the gospel in order to continue to be saved eternally.

 

[JLB]

• Not sure how any of this relates to the notion of loss of salvation.

I see your not sure, which is why I'm showing you many scriptures, that will clear up your being unsure.

The question doesn't make sense. Only those who have believed receive the gift of eternal life. And they receive it WHEN they believe, according to Jesus in John 5:24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, HAS eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Here is my question that you said, does not make sense.

How does the gift eternal life come to be obtained by an unbeliever?

An unbeliever who is to obtain eternal life must believe the Gospel.

Those who believe... for a while, then turn back to unbelief, no longer have what their believing obtained for them.

These are said to fall away... since they returned to unbelieving, they believed in vain.


Those who endure to the end are saved. Matthew 24:13


36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:

37 “For yet a little while, And He who is coming will come and will not tarry.
38 Now the just shall live by faith; But if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him.”

39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.
Hebrews 10:36-39


JLB

 

[JLB]

Correct. WHEN one believes, they RECEIVE the gift of eternal life, and since it is irrevocable,

What is the "it" you are referring to.

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Hebrews 11:29

These two things together, both gifts and calling, are what the scripture says are irrevocable.

Irrevocable in the original, doesn't mean what you are claiming.

The original word in the Greek, means without regret.


The call of repentance to Israel, as well as the gifts that administer the call to repentance, are given without regret.

22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. Romans 11:22-23

They were cut off because of unbelief.

They can be grafted back in, if they do not continue in unbelief.

 

[JLB]

Paul taught that God's gifts are irrevocable, and that eternal life is a gift of God. Since there are no verses that exclude eternal life from the gifts of God that are irrevocable, it obviously is irrevocable.

It says the gifts and calling are irrevocable, not just gifts.




JLB

 

[MarkT]

The resistance to interpreting 1 Corinthians 3:8-15 NASB as unbelievers and ex-believers being the work of the saved laborer that gets burned up seems to stem from the particular OSAS belief that even ex-believers still have eternal life. But Paul clearly refutes that doctrine when he says "you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. (that is, unless Christ has not really been resurrected from the dead)" (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB parenthesis mine)

If Paul and Apollos, or whoever, labors in the building of God with sloth, or with a watered down message, or with whatever else and in whatever way that does not build people up into the building blocks of the temple that will pass through the coming Fire of Judgment safely they will lose reward for their labor in the building:

"24Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. 25Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They thendo it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 27but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified (for the prize)." (1 Corinthians 9:24-27 NASB parenthesis mine)

Aren't you building on the foundation when you say the work is people? Of course you are. If you're right, then you will be rewarded. If you are wrong, you will suffer a loss. Paul tells us to build with the truth, and the Day will disclose it whether we have built with the truth or not.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Not sure how any of this relates to the notion of loss of salvation."

I see your not sure, which is why I'm showing you many scriptures, that will clear up your being unsure.

Just quoting verses doesn't help any discussion, if there's no explanation.

Here is my question that you said, does not make sense.
"How does the gift eternal life come to be obtained by an unbeliever?"

An unbeliever who is to obtain eternal life must believe the Gospel.[/QUOTE]
That's what I said.

Those who believe... for a while, then turn back to unbelief, no longer have what their believing obtained for them.

I keep seeing this repeated, but WITHOUT any Scripture to back it up. Where are the verses that teach this?

These are said to fall away... since they returned to unbelieving, they believed in vain.

Where is the verse that says that one who "returned to unbelieving" loses eternal life?

Those who endure to the end are saved. Matthew 24:13

Context removes this as being relevant to the discussion.

36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:

37 “For yet a little while, And He who is coming will come and will not tarry.
38 Now the just shall live by faith; But if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him.”

This doesn't say anything about taking away or losing eternal life. It says that God has no pleasure in the one who draws back.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Correct. WHEN one believes, they RECEIVE the gift of eternal life, and since it is irrevocable,"

What is the "it" you are referring to.

The sentence was very simple and straightforward. The "it" refers to the "gift of eternal life".

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Hebrews 11:29

And that's the verse I always quote which backs up my claims.

These two things together, both gifts and calling, are what the scripture says are irrevocable.

The gifts are irrevocable, AND the call is irrevocable. What' your point?

Irrevocable in the original, doesn't mean what you are claiming.

I'll trust how scholars in the Greek have rendered it.

The original word in the Greek, means without regret.

I've yet to read any explanation of what you think that means.

The call of repentance to Israel, as well as the gifts that administer the call to repentance, are given without regret.

Just one problem with your theory. Paul never indicated anywhere in the epistle to the Romans that he meant only "the call of repentance to Israel, as well as the gifts that administer the call to repentance".

btw, what EXACTLY are "the gifts that administer the call to repentance"??

And after explaining what these so-called gifts are, HOW do they "administer the call to repentance"?

22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. Romans 11:22-23

They were cut off because of unbelief.

They can be grafted back in, if they do not continue in unbelief.

I've already provided a very reasonable explanation of this, and no one has shown it to be wrong.

Now, please answer my questions about what the gifts that administer the call to repentance are, and HOW they do that.