[_ Old Earth _] What is TIME?

[Sparkey]

The title is the question: What is TIME?
<thank you for your thoughtful replies>

 

[Ashua]

I do not think "time" in this tangible sense truly exists as something that can be thought of as physically real. Time is "amorphic" and not as it were, an infinite series of "saved states"

What is time?

Time is an abstract human concept for sequentially arranging events on a ray oriented "time line"; the origin of which is unknown.

They say "Time" exists as the fourth dimension, but really? Time is the inverse of the paradoxical vacuum of the concept of Oblivion. Time is defined by variance relative to things contained within a space. No, nouns means no verbs; no verbs means no sequence; no sequence means no time.

This universe and existence itself is the forced contingent alternative to the concept of absolute oblivion. It's a vacuum of necessity (We are the proof that reality has a propensity towards "being" instead of utter Oblivion)

So what is time? Its a human cognitive invention that allows us to reckon the order of events. "True" Time exists by necessity. They say the universe is expanding, but what is it expanding into? by definition UNI (one) verse implies that ALL (physical) existence falls within the boundary of the "One" zone of tangible existence. Time is infinite by proxy.

Edit:

OKay... I rambled my thoughts. Let me clean it up for you:

The conclusion of what I was trying to say is this:

If the universe is a massively infinite volume of "Spacial capacity" wherein all things are contained; then time is the equally massive infinite "framerate" in which all things move change and operate.

 

[Sparkey]

Ashua, you're a Christian, aren't ya? I can tell because I undestood your reply and there was zero accusation in it. You didn't make me feel stupid. Thanks.

I followed what you said with the exception of when I reached, " forced contingent alternative to the concept of absolute oblivion" and you explained that part well enough.

My whole thought came (as I consider it now) from the fact that when I examine all the "real experiences" that I've had in the Spirit (there have been less than a dozen that I categorize as "real" to my own heart) I've never once thought of time while in His presence.

There was one time though when the Lord poured out His Spirit on me and my best friend right after we had prayed. He and I were "slain in the Spirit" --hmmm.... we felt immediately comforted as we were caught up and there was no questioning what was happening ... except for that single moment...

He and I turned to look at each other, as if to say, "Is this happening to you too?" and when our eyes met we both understood the intent of the look of the other, like we were in lock-step, "Is this happening to you too?" --mirrored immediately and reflected perfectly. Right at that moment, after the glance, (and this was when I was a teen) I looked at my watch but I it didn't register on me. That's the closest to being able to understand "time" that I've ever experienced while in His presence.

This isn't something that people normally admit to and I made the thread yesterday, before I really understood why I created it. Mostly the idea I had when I made the thread was just to see if any Christian would reply, pretty much I figured it would be too bland for "trolling"... and nobody would object. I made the thread yesterday (no clue why, honestly) but thought, "There is always somebody writing about evolution and time in the Christianity and E. forum, that's where it should go..." Maybe this will convince them that to Christians, time doesn't matter. It won't exist.

Anyway, thanks Ash and God Bless you Mightily as you continue in the Truth of your Witness to our Lord and Savior Jesus.

~Sparrow

 

[Ashua]

Ashua, you're a Christian, aren't ya? I can tell because I undestood your reply and there was zero accusation in it. You didn't make me feel stupid. Thanks.

I followed what you said with the exception of when I reached, " forced contingent alternative to the concept of absolute oblivion" and you explained that part well enough.

My whole thought came (as I consider it now) from the fact that when I examine all the "real experiences" that I've had in the Spirit (there have been less than a dozen that I categorize as "real" to my own heart) I've never once thought of time while in His presence.

There was one time though when the Lord poured out His Spirit on me and my best friend right after we had prayed. He and I were "slain in the Spirit" --hmmm.... we felt immediately comforted as we were caught up and there was no questioning what was happening ... except for that single moment...

He and I turned to look at each other, as if to say, "Is this happening to you too?" and when our eyes met we both understood the intent of the look of the other, like we were in lock-step, "Is this happening to you too?" --mirrored immediately and reflected perfectly. Right at that moment, after the glance, (and this was when I was a teen) I looked at my watch but I it didn't register on me. That's the closest to being able to understand "time" that I've ever experienced while in His presence.

This isn't something that people normally admit to and I made the thread yesterday, before I really understood why I created it. Mostly the idea I had when I made the thread was just to see if any Christian would reply, pretty much I figured it would be too bland for "trolling"... and nobody would object. I made the thread yesterday (no clue why, honestly) but thought, "There is always somebody writing about evolution and time in the Christianity and E. forum, that's where it should go..." Maybe this will convince them that to Christians, time doesn't matter. It won't exist.

Anyway, thanks Ash and God Bless you Mightily as you continue in the Truth of your Witness to our Lord and Savior Jesus.

~Sparrow

Thanks, Sparrow. More to this thread than meets the eye for sure.

"Forced contingent alternative to the concept of absolute oblivion" is just a way of saying "the lights have to be on rather than off." (where light = existence of the physical universe and lights off= the absence of all things including the universe.

Thanks for sharing that experience. Nothing like a genuine "slaying of the Spirit."
God bless.

 

[Pizzaguy]

Ah, Time. I have thought and thought about "time" and just what it is and how God is not limited by it.

I was listening to a physicist speak once, he was trying to describe faster than light travel. He spoke of the energy requirements (which appear to be infinite), the effects on the human body (which appear to be daunting) ... and then he spoke of an imaginary observer living outside of space and time and what that person would "see".

He spoke of how, if you lived outside of space and time, you could see the future and the past - you could see anytime you wanted to see.

I then thought of God, and how this guy was (probably unknowingly, since he sounded very much like an unbeliever) not thinking of God at all... but it almost started to sound like an "explanation" of how God can know the past, present and future.

I think that Time is something we humans are trapped in, but I tend to think we'll live outside of it once we leave this life.

 

[Deavonreye]

Past and present, sure. Future, . . . it may come to nothing more than a "good guess based upon past experiences with humans".

Time, in the most fundamental sense, is based upon movement, and not necessarily physical movement. IN the physical, if anything has even the slightest of movement, time must be present, and in a linear direction.

 

[Sparkey]

Past and present, sure. Future, . . . it may come to nothing more than a "good guess based upon past experiences with humans".

Time, in the most fundamental sense, is based upon movement, and not necessarily physical movement. IN the physical, if anything has even the slightest of movement, time must be present, and in a linear direction.

Greetings Devonreye,

I've seen demonstrations while studying Quantum Mechanics that show that time does not necessarily "flow" in a single direction. It is men's perception that define the progression from organized to chaotic that give the concept of the direction of time. Are you perhaps familiar with that? The video I'm talking about is frequently used showing a pool table and the balls are racked before the cue ball smacks them into a disorganized state. The "magic" of showing the video in reverse where the balls go from an unorganized almost random state of order into an ordered group is used to show what happens on a sub-particle basis. The subject is time and we are told that on the smallest order (sub-particulate matter) the concept of the direction of time, from past to present, does not apply in the way that we think.

I don't pretend to understand those observations but thought I'd bring it up for clarification. Welcome to the discussion, Deavonreye. I don't mean to ask you that directly but maybe you know what I mean. Your phrase, "and in a linear direction" reminded me what I learned before about time because you're right, of course, to not state emphatically which specific direction. Does time flow? What is time?

~Sparrow

 

[Deavonreye]

I am looking at the subject on a practical level. There are areas of quantum mechanics that play with the idea of a flexable "time". To be honest, I don't understand how "near the speed of light travel" can also speed up time. But for the practical, time itself is the most seen/understood when a body is in motion. Of course, it really is more involved than that. A completely stationary object, with all atoms frozen [no movement] is still passing in time because of the amount of time that is passing while the object is apparently "on pause".

Anything that moves has time as its master. Nothing that moves [or even exists] can be outside of time.

 

[Sparkey]

You're right to consider it on a practical level. The problem comes when I exceed my own limitations and try to define what "Time" is. In that realm I am more like God than me and that is so false that my conclusions can not be trusted. Still, I'm curious to hear what others say. "Thought experiments" are interesting and challenging. My intellect is aroused by them. As far as "completely motionless object" -- that is an imaginary obect by definition similar to the "unmovable object" that the "irresistable force" can be confronted with. There is no such temperature as absolute zero. We (as humans - or in another way of saying it, while thinking on a practical level) tend to think in a binary, absolute manner. That is a trap that I am too familiar with.

Your speculations are welcome and encouraged. I guess my point (if there is one) is that we don't really know what time is. Yes, I've read Stephen Hawkings book, but no, I don't pretend to understand it. Maybe there is an expert interperter who can help, maybe not. It's a difficult subject for me because I personalize just about everything and can no longer think about that mind and the tragic effect of muscular dystrophy without sadness - but that's another subject. I'm looking for a brilliant mind that can speak like a child so an idiot like me can understand.

 

[Deavonreye]

I wouldn't [at all] consider you to be "an idiot". When it comes to advanced knowledge/logic, I too find it fascinating to hear someone of that quality speak on subjects like this. Love watching such documentaries! Usually I can follow, which is good. Sometimes I am left scratching my head, . . . and I even love that. It means that there is still more to learn.

As for . . . "We (as humans - or in another way of saying it, while thinking on a practical level) tend to think in a binary, absolute manner. That is a trap that I am too familiar with." . . . you are correct. I think it helps people out when they can keep from this "binary thinking".

 

[Sparkey]

I do like the conversational nature of this thread so far. It takes time to understand. I'm only an "idiot" when it comes to understanding, but have been a knowledge seeker almost from birth. Collecting data and then trying to sort and make relevant is the key.

Notice my clumsy attempt to introduce "time" back? "It takes time to understand..."

Now, and since this is the Christianity and Science section, --I go back to the concept of timelessness. There is nothing that has happened to me that is unique to me. While studying meta-cognition I was introduced to the concept of "flow" as expressed by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, it's easy to Google it if you're not familiar.

He states that when we enter "flow" it is almost a religious experience. I think transcendental experiences (or things that can be described in that fashion) are not unique to Christians but are shared in common by all. Csikszentmihalyi was talking about learning and never mentioned "transcendental experience" but it suits my purpose here. That's the first part of my problem in trying to communicate the question. "Does time matter" to the free and unfettered mind? Can we (when we are in our promised new and eternal bodies) still grasp the concept of time?

 

[Deavonreye]

"It takes time to understand..." hehe


I am unable to address "time in the afterlife". I can't imagine how it would be any different than how we perceive it now. Not in the sense that we would be "looking at clocks", but anything we do must have the accompanied component of "time" in it.

 

[Tailgunner]

"It takes time to understand..." hehe


I am unable to address "time in the afterlife". I can't imagine how it would be any different than how we perceive it now. Not in the sense that we would be "looking at clocks", but anything we do must have the accompanied component of "time" in it.

I agree. It's stated that God exists outside of time, but how? Seems to me that even outside of time there has to be one moment following another. I don't know if it's just because I'm not as well grounded in the sciences as I'd like to be, or whether it's impossible for us to understand, but I really DON'T understand what it means to be outside of time.

Oddly, I believe it was Einstein that gave a definition that makes sense, even if it doesn't really answer the question of what time is: Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.

 

[Sparkey]

I agree. It's stated that God exists outside of time, but how? Seems to me that even outside of time there has to be one moment following another. I don't know if it's just because I'm not as well grounded in the sciences as I'd like to be, or whether it's impossible for us to understand, but I really DON'T understand what it means to be outside of time.

Oddly, I believe it was Einstein that gave a definition that makes sense, even if it doesn't really answer the question of what time is: Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.

That which keeps everything from happening all at once.

That's pretty good, I should keep it simple and understand that all of God's works are completed, that He rested on the 7th day and we are entering that rest. Thank you.

 

[Tailgunner]

That which keeps everything from happening all at once.

That's pretty good, I should keep it simple and understand that all of God's works are completed, that He rested on the 7th day and we are entering that rest. Thank you.

Thank you, Sparrowhawke. But God, after all, did give us curiosity, and I think these discussions and speculations we have are a direct result of that. Interesting topic, and I hope more will post here.

Incidentally, (maybe for another thread) there are things I really do wish I could go back in time and see for myself.

 

[Deavonreye]

I suppose that "going back in time" could be another thread, but it does fit with this one, IMO.

Yes, we have been given [either through deities or learned behavior] curiosity, and even more than that, a desire to KNOW why. Other animals have curiosity, but don't delve into the "why" like we do. If an emergent property [of evolution], then it was somehow necessary to our development. If a property of deities, it was given so that we DO ask questions [of all sorts] and IMO without fear of reprisal. Can't learn if you don't investigate.

As I step down off the soap box, I understand what you are saying, Tailgunner. I have a feeling that "god is outside of time" was just invented by people to make their god more mysterious, . . . but in reality, anything in motion must be bound to a time frame within that action. In fact, I would go so far as to say that "god is outside of time" is as paradoxical/nonsensical as "can god create a rock so big that even he can't life".

 

[jasoncran]

I suppose that "going back in time" could be another thread, but it does fit with this one, IMO.

Yes, we have been given [either through deities or learned behavior] curiosity, and even more than that, a desire to KNOW why. Other animals have curiosity, but don't delve into the "why" like we do. If an emergent property [of evolution], then it was somehow necessary to our development. If a property of deities, it was given so that we DO ask questions [of all sorts] and IMO without fear of reprisal. Can't learn if you don't investigate.

As I step down off the soap box, I understand what you are saying, Tailgunner. I have a feeling that "god is outside of time" was just invented by people to make their god more mysterious, . . . but in reality, anything in motion must be bound to a time frame within that action. In fact, I would go so far as to say that "god is outside of time" is as paradoxical/nonsensical as "can god create a rock so big that even he can't life".

so god is nothing but a big almighty alien that men could elvolve to if somehow ns favored us to be that entity.

lol the Q comes to mind.

 

[Deavonreye]

I hardly think that we can be "god like", in the way that is often understood by specific religions.

The Q. . . . . hehehe

 

[stovebolts]

Past and present, sure. Future, . . . it may come to nothing more than a "good guess based upon past experiences with humans".

Time, in the most fundamental sense, is based upon movement, and not necessarily physical movement. IN the physical, if anything has even the slightest of movement, time must be present, and in a linear direction.

I tend to lean toward this explanation with a bit simpler view. Time, in essence is the distance between two objects.

As we understand time, it is based on the distance between objects in the cosmos and our time is derived from those measurements.

If two objects are not moving, it does not mean that time does not exist simply because there is still distance, and since time is based on the distance between objects, movement is only an expression of the journey.

For a simple example, there are appox 24 hours in one day. But what is considered a day in it's simplist form but the distance between two points?

This seems to agree somewhat with Einsteins theory of relativity that we all learned in grammer school, you know, the one where the space ship is travelling a million miles an hour for a century, yet the person inside only ages a year in terms of earthly time.

 

[jasoncran]

I hardly think that we can be "god like", in the way that is often understood by specific religions.

The Q. . . . . hehehe

but did you not say that God must function within time?

think about the big bang says when it started there was no time.no space, no energy.

if god is bound within time then he or she must be within the limits of the known laws of said universe.