Growth What Is True Faith?

[K2CHRIST]

I often hear the terms
True Faith
and
True Believer.

I'm not sure what this means.
Is the word faith not sufficient?
Is the word believer not sufficient?

How would you explain TRUE faith and/or a TRUE believer?

I liked this OP. It is a question that comes up when I listen to "Christians". I put Christians in quotes because when listening to other "Christian" you can't help but wondering about us "Christians". We use these wonderful terms about being saved by faith, or "True Faith" , but it soon becomes clear we ourselves don't agree on a meaning of what we are saying. And so I thought I would go back and just look over the thread to see what was said. Perhaps I missed something. Perhaps there is a universal understanding, but I don't really see it?

In my opinion, true belief and true faith are from warnings of Jesus. Saying that not everyone who calls Jesus Lord is His disciple, but those who do the will of God

I kind of like the above quote. There is a warning from Jesus. And the Scriptures do point to those doing "the will of God". Ok, who are those doing the will of God? I guess they are the ones with "True Faith", but it we don't know who they are we don't know what "True Faith" means. So I like the post, but it leaves us still lacking a definition. Luke 8:21 Seems to answer that. "
But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.” (NASB)

I do believe the "True Believer" is the person that hears the Lord speaking to them and go about doing what He personally tells them to. This might not tell me if another person is a "True Believer" but it can sure tell me that I need to be personally seeking the Lord's voice for my instructions. And that is who I need to be concerned about first.

True faith comes from God, and is based on the truth of God, and always points to God.

I like this post also, but again it seems so vague. Ok, "True faith comes from God" but how? And ok, it is "based on the truth of God", but what does that mean? That is going to require a whole other thread. And we have that it "always points to God". Don't most religions point to God or gods, in some form or another? So I like the post and what was in it, but it didn't clarify, and in fact is very much like the things I hear from Christians which lead me to liking the OP question.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Carl Sagan, the late and noted atheist and author, once said, “Faith is believing in something in the absence of evidence.” (I actually like this from an unbeliever, but as believers we know the power of God toward us.)

I found this post very interesting, but still very vague. It's interesting because of the contrast of a non-believer (Sagan) and a believer (the author of Hebrews). They almost sound identical, but difference is most noteworthy. The unbeliever says faith is believing without evidence and the believer is believing because of evidence of things not seen. So Eugene points out the power of God, which we believers do come to see. We may not see God, but we see miracles. The problem I see with this is that many are going to say to Him on that day the cast our demons, healed the sick, and such in His name but the Lord is going to tell them He never knew them! That is a problem indeed!

True Faith: When I use the term true faith, it is meant to imply a unique kind of faith. I don't really know how to express it, other than to say it is a faith that is not dependent upon my own beliefs.

I like this, and perhaps "ezrider" is correct in saying we "don't really know how to express it". Still, if we are going to tell people they are saved by faith in Jesus Christ, we had better come up with some idea of what that means!

Faith is faith.
But what exactly are we putting our faith in would be the most appropriate question.

I do think we also need to know "what exactly are we putting our faith in", but politicians, when they don't like the question, tend to change the question. I do think, that as Christians, we are putting our faith in the Christ (Jesus Christ, a person in the God head). So who we are putting our faith in is not so tough a question to answer, but may need to be answered before we ask what a "True Believer" is.

True faith, to me, means a form of trust and faith in the grand scheme of things that goes beyond my personal level.

But if my answer to "what exactly are we putting our faith" is a who called Jesus Christ, why then do I see our faith put "in the grand scheme of things"? Yeah, we may need another thread as to what or who we are putting our faith in. I actually think I did a thread on that questions once. I think we do need to make it clear that our faith is in Jesus Christ. Jn 3:16 ...His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

Again, the post sounded nice, but if out faith is not in "Jesus Christ", but is "in the a grand scheme of things" it is not "True Faith". Maybe I did get something out of that post. Maybe I just didn't understand JohnDB. If that is the case this thread is all the more important. We just don't do a good job of making it clear what a "True Believer" is.

You can't say that faith or belief is true if it's not based in the 'true' Gospel. So in reality, you can know if faith or belief is the real deal if it's based on the Gospel.

I believe in the gospel, or "good news" but what is it? Again we open up the need for another thread. I believe the Good News is that, because of the cross and the forgiveness there-in, I can hear from the Lord and have access to the King and His Kingdom. In short. I can hear from God. That is indeed good news. But that is how I see it, and thus I believe a "True Believer" is someone that hears from the Lord Jesus Christ and does what He says.

My faith is based upon hearing with my spiritual ears.

Yeah, the above quote was from me. It makes perfect sense to me. It is written faith comes from hearing, I hear from this being whose first words to me were, "Read Your Bible", and I hear from Him everyday. And while I don't always do everything He tells me.

I almost always find that True Believer and True Faith are used in a pejorative sense, to distinguish the speaker (True Faith and True Believer) from someone else (Not So True). I use the term True Believer in many contexts, religious and otherwise, in a completely pejorative sense, as meaning "mindlessly dogmatic." For example, New Atheists are True Believers (and Fundamentalists besides!).

The above is what I expect from someone that doesn't hear from Him. They can't possibly know how easy it is to hear from Him, because they can't hear from Him.

We walk by faith not by sight, but we do not walk blindly, we do not walk in our own understanding, we walk with an understanding given by God.
Faith is not evidence of things you do not see, it is seeing the things that are not seen.

Yes, I like this post! But again, I hear things like this it seems vague to me. It's like a walk around and by some means an understanding just comes upon me.

Jn 16:13 But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own imitative, but what He hears, He will speak

The Holy Spirit speaks, and a "True Believer" will hear what He speaks. The Spirit of God, is of course a spirit, so we are not talking sound waves, but He does speak and we should be able to hear words, unless of course our hearing is dull or we are not paying attention like we should. I don't always pay attention like I should. I don't always have the faith to pick up what He is telling me as words, but usually I can, and I do hear "words"

Jn 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

Ok - I am back to where I was before. I read or listen to other Christians and I often like what the say or write, but too often they don't make sense to me. I ask the questions like asked in the OP. I don't ask them because I don't have an answer, but I ask because I can't understand why they don't have an answer. A "True Believe" to them is a 'power of God on them', or 'an understanding given by God', or perhaps 'faith in the grand scheme', or some other vague idea. To me it is hearing words from this One I call Lord and believing that He is God.

Gen 15 ...the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision saying...Then he believed in the Lord and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

That is what my faith is like. I hear from the word of the Lord saying to me, and I believe in the Lord, and that belief seems to be counted to me as righteousness.

 

[Edward]

In my opinion, true belief and true faith are from warnings of Jesus. Saying that not everyone who calls Jesus Lord is His disciple, but those who do the will of God, and again another warning is that people will be surprised by who is saved and who isn't. True believer in reference with being born again has the merrit that Jesus said you must be born again of the Spirit.

I think you're right, Brother. I've been pondering this for awhile now and want you to consider this and tell me if you'd agree.

Faith is synonymous with trust.No one trusts another right off, it takes a bit of time. Time for one to show that he is trust worthy. The same is probably true with God. We have to build a resume of trust with the Lord...

So how do we build a resume of trust with our Lord? By obeying and doing the will of God, that's how. I think that when we do this, then God will give us something as a reward...and whenever the Lord does something for us, then our duty is a response of faith. To keep building on...(What do you think?)

 

[Eugene]

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Carl Sagan, the late and noted atheist and author, once said, “Faith is believing in something in the absence of evidence.” (I actually like this from an unbeliever, but as believers we know the power of God toward us.)
http://housetohouse.com/meaning-faith-substance-hope-evidence-hebrew-111/

I found this post very interesting, but still very vague. It's interesting because of the contrast of a non-believer (Sagan) and a believer (the author of Hebrews). They almost sound identical, but difference is most noteworthy. The unbeliever says faith is believing without evidence and the believer is believing because of evidence of things not seen. So Eugene points out the power of God, which we believers do come to see. We may not see God, but we see miracles. The problem I see with this is that many are going to say to Him on that day the cast our demons, healed the sick, and such in His name but the Lord is going to tell them He never knew them! That is a problem indeed!

The problem lies in the unbeliever, not the believer regardless the weakness of their faith. To me the difference in the unbeliever is that they partake of the Holy Spirit in seeing the miracles, hearing the word, and all the illustrations of Godly influence upon mankind, and yet commit the unpardonable sin in turning back before calling upon God's name.

The unbeliever believed unto repentance, but repentance doesn't save as one study I have says. Even Judas repented, but was called a son of perdition. Of course at judgment I imagine all these will point to the good they have done, but without the measure of faith God dealt to them (Rom 12:3), the blood of healing was not applied, and without shedding of blood there is no remission. (Hev 9:22)

There was the man Simon in Act 8:18 that wanted to purchase the gift of laying on of hands; he believed, didn't he? My thinking tells me that these will plead that they believed in God, but He will say to them that He never knew them. and of course that is knowing them as belonging to Him.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Last of all there are different levels of true faith which begin as children, become young men, and then fathers of the faith (1 Jn 2:13) if they grow into the full measure of the fulness of Christ we read of in Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ. What is the source of believing?
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?

 

[K2CHRIST]

Many claim to believe, but they really do not

You call me lord lord, but don't do the things I say.

To do the things someone says, you have to listen to what they say. If you listen to the Lord and believe He is Lord, then you will do what He says. He stands at the door and knocks and if anyone hears His voice and opens the door (Rev 3:20). So He is talking and trying to communicate with us with His voice. We have to listen and do what He says. But if we don't believe, we won't listen because we don't believe. If we do listen and take action, it is because we believe. So as a rhetorical question; what do you hear and do? We need to ask ourselves that question.

Everyday I hear, and it is not me. This morning I sat down and talked to the Lord and listened. I heard (and I don't hear this every morning) His voice telling me to post on the Christian Forum. Indeed, He personally told me that He had me working on my business and my personal relationships this weekend, but this morning He needed me to post. I heard that. Though is was a spiritual (still small voice) is was still a voice with words which gave me an instruction. It was not an unction, or a feeling, or and understanding, but rather were words spoken to me.

And right before turning on my computer I was talking to Him. I had thought about this thread much of the day, though I had much work to do because it was Monday and I have business to run also. But business was done and I turned back to Him to talk about this thread, which He had me post on. It was interesting what He was telling me. I will post it after this post.

 

[K2CHRIST]

The problem lies in the unbeliever, not the believer regardless the weakness of their faith. To me the difference in the unbeliever is that they partake of the Holy Spirit in seeing the miracles, hearing the word, and all the illustrations of Godly influence upon mankind, and yet commit the unpardonable sin in turning back before calling upon God's name.

The unbeliever believed unto repentance, but repentance doesn't save as one study I have says. Even Judas repented, but was called a son of perdition. Of course at judgment I imagine all these will point to the good they have done, but without the measure of faith God dealt to them (Rom 12:3), the blood of healing was not applied, and without shedding of blood there is no remission. (Hev 9:22)

There was the man Simon in Act 8:18 that wanted to purchase the gift of laying on of hands; he believed, didn't he? My thinking tells me that these will plead that they believed in God, but He will say to them that He never knew them. and of course that is knowing them as belonging to Him.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Last of all there are different levels of true faith which begin as children, become young men, and then fathers of the faith (1 Jn 2:13) if they grow into the full measure of the fulness of Christ we read of in Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ. What is the source of believing?
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?

I like a lot of the above post, and many of the posts on this thread. They, and the Lord have caused me to think a lot more on this subject of "True Faith". And I was talking it over with my Lord. He was pointing out to me that I believe in Him. He is a person, whom I talk to and who talks to me. He pointed out that He has attributes, but I am not believing in an attribute but a person. That is why I talk to and listen to Him a person.

Now He had power, but I do not believe in His power. I believe He exists. Yeah, He exists and He has power, but my faith is not in the power of God but the person of God.

And again, He has grace. That is to say that one of His attributes or part of His personality is that He gives unmerited favor (grace) and that in abundance. But I don't believe in His grace I believe in Him who as part of His personality give unmerited favor.

So my faith is not in the power of God, or the grace of God, or fullness of God, or the plan of God, or any of the attributes, behaviors, or personality of God, but rather by faith it is in in the One whom I call Lord because He is my Lord. He is my friend. He is my wonderful counselor. He is also Mighty God, and the Prince of Peace, and so much more, but still my faith is in Him who talks to me.

For example: He currently has me going and working in a healing ministry. I see miracles almost weekly, but my faith is not in the miracles, but in Him. So I go because He, my friend and Lord, told me to go and serve there. So I don't say I believe in Him because I see the miracles, but rather I say I believe in Him who told me to go and serve, and I love the miracles. The faith came from hearing Him. The miracles just show that He was who I believed He was.

Perhaps you and I understand some of the verses you quoted differently. Maybe not, but when I read, "whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved", I think about calling on Him and asking Him questions and listening to what I hear from Him. Just like I called upon Him to answer questions I had after reading the posts. He then talked to me and He pointed out that I am believing in the person of Jesus Christ, my Lord who has attributes, and not in the attributes. Yes, He as God has attributes, but my faith is in the person not the attributes. So I wouldn't say I believe in the power of God, but rather that I believe in the God of power.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

I think you're right, Brother. I've been pondering this for awhile now and want you to consider this and tell me if you'd agree.

Faith is synonymous with trust.No one trusts another right off, it takes a bit of time. Time for one to show that he is trust worthy. The same is probably true with God. We have to build a resume of trust with the Lord...

So how do we build a resume of trust with our Lord? By obeying and doing the will of God, that's how. I think that when we do this, then God will give us something as a reward...and whenever the Lord does something for us, then our duty is a response of faith. To keep building on...(What do you think?)

I don't know about the resume aspect. (Do you mean a resume of our experiences to build our trust in God?) But in my experience trusting God grows with both experience with God and with understanding. When I was younger though I think I trusted Him the most. That was before I learned to doubt so much, or to question if God loved me and if I was still saved. So with that in mind I'm not sure about the resume aspect because though after some pitfalls in faith and life, my trust in God grew, and my understanding made more sense to me. However when I was young I think I had the faith that children have. My trust in Him was unquestioningly strong, but I had no clue what it meant or how to follow Him.

After some time in confronting controversies in doctrine and theology I found a new idea (new to me anyways). In Proverbs 3:5-6 it says

5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight.

The aspect of trusting God even if we don't understand became a huge aspect in my faith. Let go of all the controversies of being saved or not, having the Holy Spirit or not, or anything and everything else. Just trust in God and rely on Him. That's where it really seems to matter anyways with what He dies, not with us or our understanding.

Trust grows though. And if that's what you mean by a resume then I agree. I've philosophized it probabley too much so I might wrong in my conclusions. So far the way I figure it we are told to trust in God. For if He is for us who can be against us. The second is to trust His commandments and His teachings. Like when we trust a person's advise we follow it. Thus our trust in God should show an obedience in His ways. Concepts of belief and trust overlapped to be a heavy element of what it means to hold onto faith.

 

[K2CHRIST]

5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight.

I love the verses. They seem to explain it the best to me, but I don't seem to read them as other sometime do.

Leaning not on my understanding, to me means seeking His understanding. That requires I hear what He has to personally say to me about the topic I have concern about.

And submitting to him, and he will make your paths straight, again to me mean that I hear what instructions He personally has to say to me. How else can I submit to Him if I don't know what His instructions are to me?

Yet it often seems that other Christian quote theses same verses to mean that they can just go about doing whatever and thinking whatever they like and trust that God will make it all ok. To me that is indeed leaning on our own understanding and indeed is not actually submitting to God, but doing what I want.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

I love the verses. They seem to explain it the best to me, but I don't seem to read them as other sometime do.

Leaning not on my understanding, to me means seeking His understanding. That requires I hear what He has to personally say to me about the topic I have concern about.

And submitting to him, and he will make your paths straight, again to me mean that I hear what instructions He personally has to say to me. How else can I submit to Him if I don't know what His instructions are to me?

Yet it often seems that other Christian quote theses same verses to mean that they can just go about doing whatever and thinking whatever they like and trust that God will make it all ok. To me that is indeed leaning on our own understanding and indeed is not actually submitting to God, but doing what I want.

If I don't lean on God in spite of who I am, all I will see is my failures. Both in faith and in life. It's a dark place I don't want to return to. God is greater then our sins (otherwise He couldn't save us from them), He's greater then our understanding (He's God), and He's greater then our deeds and behavior. He's also sovereign and in control.

K2CHRIST, do you know you're just one perspective of at least a dozen that try to outline how to be close to God? And if people don't mesh up then they are't saved, aren't close, or are otherwise false Christians. (You put Christian in quotes usually so that much is already implied).

I do hope it's true that you have talks with God. But there is so reason to doubt. After all have you ever heard of a book series called "Conversations With God?" It's about a man who apparently started a conversation with God over the years and wrote it down. The down side is that unless you're familiar with the bible you won't know how false these conversations really are.

The second thing to consider is though I hope you actually do have talks with God. It can be easily observed bums that I do not have these conversations with Him. He's in control and is sovereign, so if I don't hear Him now, there's not much I have to change that. That's His call not mine. If or when that changes I doubt it'll happen because of one of the many extra biblical insights that say how to be close to God instead of being a false "Christian."

Sorry if this is defensive but you've really hit a nerve. All we have to work with is what we have now. If God changes that later then wewill have whatever He offers. Until then the bible is the hope and the message. God's grace and His Love are the foundations of His promise, so that we do not have to step through hoops to earn His presence and salvation.

 

[Watching Thomas]

I often hear the terms
True Faith
and
True Believer.

I'm not sure what this means.
Is the word faith not sufficient?
Is the word believer not sufficient?

How would you explain TRUE faith and/or a TRUE believer?

I personally do not use the terms true faith or true believer. Well, maybe I do but very rarely. It may come up in a conversation like this where I am making a comparison, for example:

Person: "Well I have faith in Jesus but I don't see any need to pray to God or ask forgiveness of sins!"
Me: "Okay, if we look at Scripture, we see that true faith [or 'real faith' or 'the faith God wants us to have'] means that we . . ."​

So, as a normal thing (apart from rare times making a comparison), I don't put adjectives in front of 'faith' or 'believer'. I find the plain words sufficient. I do like my burgers with the works but my words plain. But that is just me.

Watching Thomas

 

[Brock]

I often hear the terms
True Faith
and
True Believer.

I'm not sure what this means.
Is the word faith not sufficient?
Is the word believer not sufficient?

How would you explain TRUE faith and/or a TRUE believer?

This is posted in the Foundation of Faith Forum because I do not intend it to be a debate, but the poster's personal belief. Beliefs could be questioned for better understanding, but not debated. This is not a salvation issue...thus, no debate necessary.

Thanks.

The difference is that a true believers faith will never fall it will always stand, true believers will never walk away. False believers just say that they have faith they say that only to make themselves look good only false believers will part from God. there's a verse that says "they parted from us because they were never one of us" Also James 2 explains this subject pretty well.

 

[K2CHRIST]

If I don't lean on God in spite of who I am, all I will see is my failures. Both in faith and in life. It's a dark place I don't want to return to. God is greater then our sins (otherwise He couldn't save us from them), He's greater then our understanding (He's God), and He's greater then our deeds and behavior. He's also sovereign and in control.

K2CHRIST, do you know you're just one perspective of at least a dozen that try to outline how to be close to God? And if people don't mesh up then they are't saved, aren't close, or are otherwise false Christians. (You put Christian in quotes usually so that much is already implied).

I do hope it's true that you have talks with God. But there is so reason to doubt. After all have you ever heard of a book series called "Conversations With God?" It's about a man who apparently started a conversation with God over the years and wrote it down. The down side is that unless you're familiar with the bible you won't know how false these conversations really are.

The second thing to consider is though I hope you actually do have talks with God. It can be easily observed bums that I do not have these conversations with Him. He's in control and is sovereign, so if I don't hear Him now, there's not much I have to change that. That's His call not mine. If or when that changes I doubt it'll happen because of one of the many extra biblical insights that say how to be close to God instead of being a false "Christian."

Sorry if this is defensive but you've really hit a nerve. All we have to work with is what we have now. If God changes that later then wewill have whatever He offers. Until then the bible is the hope and the message. God's grace and His Love are the foundations of His promise, so that we do not have to step through hoops to earn His presence and salvation.

We do need to lean on God. And that will of course mean that we have to have some trust in Him even when we are having trouble hearing from Him. Still there is a "perspective" on how to be close to and follow the Lord. And it is not "my" perspective.

Jn 10:3-5... and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice

We are supposed to seek the voice of the Lord, Of course God is more than just a voice, but over and over we see a focus in the Bible about hearing from God. We are supposed to be doing that! And that instruction is from above.

Mat 17:5... "This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!"

And this is a problem that God's people have always had. They don't want to listen to Him, but want to tell themselves that 'God will take care of me'.

Ex 20:19 ...but let not God speak to us...

and then prophets were sent to them saying,

Is 1:2 Listen, O heaven, and hear, O earth; for the Lord speaks

Is 28"12... but they would not listen.

Now perhaps when we say we are following the Lord we mean that we are listening to the Lord and what He has to say to us. But it so often seems that trusting Him means that we Christians are doing what we want and trusting it is going to be ok. Yet that is exactly the problem we see in the Bible. HIs people went about doing whatever they thought was good to them and were telling themselves it was going to be ok. They trusted in God to make it ok but they didn't ever seek the instructions of the Lord. They did not seek His voice, and they did not want His instructions They wanted to go their own way and trust that is was going to be ok because God was out there looking after them. But they didn't listen to the instructions.

Is 30:9 For this is a rebellious people, false sons, Sons who refuse to listen to the instruction of the Lord.

This is a general problem the people of God have!! It is not a personal attack, but a problem we Christians have, just like it was a problem the Jews had. We are grafted into the Jewish root, but we also are people. So we often say that 'every thing is going to be ok because I trust in God.' Does that trust mean we are seeking God and His instruction, or does that trust mean we are not seeking God and trusting that it is going to be ok anyway?

The Bible tells us that following Him means hearing His voice!