What is your understanding of the "144,000"?

[The Word]

I find this verse to be rather mysterious... I will go over it point by point and then end with a little summary.


"1 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads."
-Ok, so there were 144,000. Thats clear.

No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.
-Ok. This is clear as well.


4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins.
- Curious how "virginity", and not "accepting the sacrifice of Jesus" is a factor establishing the "chosen-ness" of the 144,000. Does it mean that non-virgins are defiled?

They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb.
-Im guessing "lamb" is interpreted to be Jesus... so of all the christians throughout the ages, only these 144,000 follow the lamb??

5 No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.
Here is where it starts getting mysterious...Given the doctrine of "original sin", doesnt it mean every one is born a sinner? So then how can anyone be blameless?
Even if I say they are redeemed by Jesus sacrifice, these verses say nothing hinting towards the 144,000 accepting the sacrifice of Jesus.


So...Who are these 144,000?
Rev 7:3-8, describes them as being 12,000 each from the Israelite tribes (mentioned by name), meaning its established they need to be Israelite in origin and be genetically related to the tribe leaders ( Judah, Reuben, Gad, Levi etc) and NOT non-israelite christians.

What are your thoughts?

These are God's chosen people such as the prophets, Jesus and us saints. Here's a few scriptures to show that we were created together in Christ.

Romans 9:
28: We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him, who are calledaccording to his purpose.
29: For those whom he foreknew he also predestinedto be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren.
30: And those whom he predestinedhe also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Psalm 33:
12: Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD, the people whom he has chosen as his heritage!

Revelation 17
13: These are of one mind and give over their power and authority to the beast;
14: they will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful."

144,000 is only a symbolic number as this is one of God's ways of keeping thing hidden for only us saints to understand. The number 12 stands for heavenly kingdom so the 12,000 from each tribe of Israel, which is symbolic for all God's created people, is a number describing the prophets, Jesus and us saints. Jesus was the only man in the flesh to be born sinless so he could receive the knowledge of God before he died for the forgiveness of all sins. This made it possible for us saints to be made sinless so we could receive the knowledge of God, too.

The prophets had to die as sinners so they didn't get the knowledge of God but they will in paradise when we get new immortal bodies to live forever. So those of us who are the 144,000 will be the reign with Christ, the Word, over all God's people who weren't a part of this group. They will be eternally separated from the knowledge of God but they will speak the language of truth so everyone will know who God is and who they are in God.

 

[Ashua]

The 144,000 are not symbolic. They are literally 12,000 from each tribe.
People like to spiritualize this away because it interferes with their Israel hostilities. The truth is, after this very same chapter finishes discussing the 144,000, John explains that he sees a "great multitude which no man can number" out of every kindred and tongue and nation ---these are the gentile saints which were martyred. So you see, the 144,000 are the remnant of Israel in the last day. The great multitude is the martyred saints from every corner of the world.

 

[jasoncran]

The 144,000 are not symbolic. They are literally 7,000 from each tribe.
People like to spiritualize this away because it interferes with their Israel hostilities. The truth is, after this very same chapter finishes discussing the 144,000, John explains that he sees a "great multitude which no man can number" out of every kindred and tongue and nation ---these are the gentile saints which were martyred. So you see, the 144,000 are the remnant of Israel in the last day. The great multitude is the martyred saints from every corner of the world.

12x12,000 =144,000 math error

 

[Ashua]

12x12,000 =144,000 math error

Yeah, you caught me just before I fixed it. I'm multi-posting ha. For some reason I was thinking 7 X 2=14 and not 12X12= 144

 

[The Word]

The 144,000 are not symbolic. They are literally 12,000 from each tribe.
People like to spiritualize this away because it interferes with their Israel hostilities. The truth is, after this very same chapter finishes discussing the 144,000, John explains that he sees a "great multitude which no man can number" out of every kindred and tongue and nation ---these are the gentile saints which were martyred. So you see, the 144,000 are the remnant of Israel in the last day. The great multitude is the martyred saints from every corner of the world.

Most everything in the scriptures are symbolic that only a sinless saint can understand. That's why you sinful Christians shouldn't be trying to interpret them because you don't have the truth in you. You have to be sinless to be born of God and then you won't sin anymore.

1 John 3
6: No one who abides in him sins
9: No one born of God commits sin; for God's nature abides in him, and he cannot sin because he is born of God.

1 John 5
2: By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments.
3: For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.
18: We know that any one born of God does not sin, but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.

Galations 5
24: And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Romans 6
22: But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life.
23: For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Ephesians 1
1: Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are also faithful in Christ Jesus:
2: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3: Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
4: even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.
5: He destined usin love to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

To deny these scriptures is to deny God who chose us to be conformed to Jesus Christ from the very beginning.

 

[jasoncran]

back one up..

" you sinful christians?"

really? that is over the top. no man on this side of heaven is perfected not even the apostles when they were alive.

paul never stated that he admited that he struggled with sin.

 

[The Word]

back one up..

" you sinful christians?"

really? that is over the top. no man on this side of heaven is perfected not even the apostles when they were alive.

paul never stated that he admited that he struggled with sin.

I see you're denying the scriptures so that means you're only concerned about yourself and not about God.

 

[jasoncran]

I see you're denying the scriptures so that means you're only concerned about yourself and not about God.

dude, tell me what was the sin i was in before i came to christ? tell me? what sins did i do ere 1996? and even after?

 

[The Word]

dude, tell me what was the sin i was in before i came to christ? tell me? what sins did i do ere 1996? and even after?

Anyone who doesn't have the truth in them are sinners. All sinners are genetically made to sin and only God can change the genetic traits to stop the power to deceive their thoughts.

Every word you speak is a lie because God wanted that to happen with all his people except Jesus. By making the whole world liars, it was easier for us saints to hear the truth. We are the people who are important to him during this age to gather knowledge for paradise. This knowledge that's revealed to us remains in the Word that we're created in so when we get new immortal bodies in paradise without any memories, we'll have to depend on this knowledge to get us to form vocabulary words and a new language so God can start communicating with us again. Then his other people will be reborn into paradise with their new immortal bodies.

 

[jasoncran]

Anyone who doesn't have the truth in them are sinners. All sinners are genetically made to sin and only God can change the genetic traits to stop the power to deceive their thoughts.

Every word you speak is a lie because God wanted that to happen with all his people except Jesus. By making the whole world liars, it was easier for us saints to hear the truth. We are the people who are important to him during this age to gather knowledge for paradise. This knowledge that's revealed to us remains in the Word that we're created in so when we get new immortal bodies in paradise without any memories, we'll have to depend on this knowledge to get us to form vocabulary words and a new language so God can start communicating with us again. Then his other people will be reborn into paradise with their new immortal bodies.

really? and you arent? heres the problem

uh 1 john 1:8 if we say that we have no sin, we decieve ourselves, and the truth isnt in us. then vs 9" if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness"

vs 10 if we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar and his word is not in us.

problem the we has an antedecent of the audience of that church and the writer. now then John admits he sins.

how can that be since he is one you say didnt sin as he was an apostle.

and uh i have through christ overcome these;
bisexaulity
porn
and others those i couldnt do by myself.

 

[The Word]

Jesus was crucified just outside Jerusalem.

The 144,000 are specific believing Jews, and not all of Israel.

What did Moses write about the 144,000? Please give references.

The 144,000 is a symbolic number that has many other names to describe God's chosen people, the prophets, Jesus and us saints. Some of the names are Remnant of Israel, Jacob, Judah, Jerusalem, Kingdom of God, the gospel, Kingdom of Jesus Christ, Kingdom of Heaven, Counselor, Holy Ones, Elect, the Chosen, etc.

The reason for so many names is that we are the only reason for this age to exist. We need to gather knowledge from God before we live in paradise. So the Bible is a testimony about the Word of God but no one can find eternal life in the scriptures. Eternal life is another name for the Word and the truth of God. Only through us can another saint find eternal life by obeying the gospel, which is the voice of God, another name used to describe us.

 

[jasoncran]

i have never heard any saint called the voice of God. that usually implies a prophet.

and while we are ambassadors of christ thats a stretch to say that we know God so well that we can pass judgments and call those saved , saved.

 

[The Word]

i have never heard any saint called the voice of God. that usually implies a prophet.

and while we are ambassadors of christ thats a stretch to say that we know God so well that we can pass judgments and call those saved , saved.

As long as you look at the flesh instead of God, you will never know the truth. A saint is the flesh of man that the Word uses to speak through. All the saints, Jesus and prophets died in the flesh but the Word is still a live and well and using my flesh to speak through today. I am the voice of God, the Word, the Kingdom of God, the truth, the gospel, Heaven, Jesus Christ, Counselor, Holy One, Elect, Remnant of Israel, Jacob, Judah, Jerusalem and many other names to describe us saints, Jesus and prophets. We are the Holy Spirit as long as I'm not talking about the flesh of man, which I'm not. All these names describe our invisible existence within God.

 

[jasoncran]

As long as you look at the flesh instead of God, you will never know the truth. A saint is the flesh of man that the Word uses to speak through. All the saints, Jesus and prophets died in the flesh but the Word is still a live and well and using my flesh to speak through today. I am the voice of God, the Word, the Kingdom of God, the truth, the gospel, Heaven, Jesus Christ, Counselor, Holy One, Elect, Remnant of Israel, Jacob, Judah, Jerusalem and many other names to describe us saints, Jesus and prophets. We are the Holy Spirit as long as I'm not talking about the flesh of man, which I'm not. All these names describe our invisible existence within God.

wow, i thought some my charismatics friends were out there.

so you are jesus christ? really? i never heard paul say that in fact he even said that he was the least of the apostles.

heres the problem, bud. you cant be all that since if you were then what of others that are kingdom of God that is with in more then one, thus a logical conundrum.

paul never said he obtained that prize while on this earth meaning that he was always striving to make that prize which was perfection and only would get it once dead.

really so you should have the authority to cast me into hell. you claim to be christ!
only he could do that and he said that only he would judge.

name on time after his death any of the apostles did that?

 

[The Word]

wow, i thought some my charismatics friends were out there.

so you are jesus christ? really? i never heard paul say that in fact he even said that he was the least of the apostles.

heres the problem, bud. you cant be all that since if you were then what of others that are kingdom of God that is with in more then one, thus a logical conundrum.

paul never said he obtained that prize while on this earth meaning that he was always striving to make that prize which was perfection and only would get it once dead.

really so you should have the authority to cast me into hell. you claim to be christ!
only he could do that and he said that only he would judge.

name on time after his death any of the apostles did that?

The Romans were the ones who produced the new testament but first the deleted anything that would show the true gospel and then they added their pagan ideas to them. This new testament has deceive every single Christian who ever lived.

There is no hell so don't worry about that. Every one of God's people will be saved from their sinful flesh so they can get a new immortal flesh in paradise.

Jesus Christ is a symbolic name for the Word, Holy Spirit, Kingdom of God, etc. All us saints prophets were created together with Jesus in the Word. Here's a couple of scriptures that shows we're created together.


Romans 9:
28: We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him, who are calledaccording to his purpose.
29: For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren.
30: And those whom he predestinedhe also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:
1: Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are also faithful in Christ Jesus:
2: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3: Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
4: even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.
5: He destined usin love to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

All of us saints can judge. Here's a saint named Paul who judged an immoral man.

I Corinthians 5:
1: It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and of a kind that is not found even among pagans; for a man is living with his father's wife.
2: And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.
3: For though absent in body I am present in spirit, and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment
4: in the name of the Lord Jesus on the man who has done such a thing. When you are assembled, and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus,
5: you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

 

[Alabaster]

The 144,000 is a symbolic number that has many other names to describe God's chosen people, the prophets, Jesus and us saints. Some of the names are Remnant of Israel, Jacob, Judah, Jerusalem, Kingdom of God, the gospel, Kingdom of Jesus Christ, Kingdom of Heaven, Counselor, Holy Ones, Elect, the Chosen, etc.

The reason for so many names is that we are the only reason for this age to exist. We need to gather knowledge from God before we live in paradise. So the Bible is a testimony about the Word of God but no one can find eternal life in the scriptures. Eternal life is another name for the Word and the truth of God. Only through us can another saint find eternal life by obeying the gospel, which is the voice of God, another name used to describe us.

You may believe it is merely symbolic, but God uses specific numbers for a purpose and while His use of numbers comes with distinct meaning, they are often literally applied, also! The 144,000 are exactly 144,000 people, according to scripture.

 

[jasoncran]

shakes head. what no hell?

really jesus talked about the gnashing of teeth! and outer darkness and weeping and wailing and that verse in the vision of John in revalation that says that the torment of them that were not found in the book of lifer was before the lord and his holy angels day and night.

you are off way off.

that isnt judgement like i mean. he means i have decided what i will do and you will do this. that isnt the condemnation of sins that havent been forgiven or repented at the white throne judgment.

the verse that you should have used was in acts5 annias and saphira lying before the holy spirit and peter being moved by the holy spirit!

that is only once for example that happened.

men lie to god alot and yet none of that happened.

i'm Glad that i have had some Good teaching in my life and also read the word myself.

 

[The Word]

You may believe it is merely symbolic, but God uses specific numbers for a purpose and while His use of numbers comes with distinct meaning, they are often literally applied, also! The 144,000 are exactly 144,000 people, according to scripture.

Why are you arguing with God?

 

[The Word]

shakes head. what no hell?

really jesus talked about the gnashing of teeth! and outer darkness and weeping and wailing and that verse in the vision of John in revalation that says that the torment of them that were not found in the book of lifer was before the lord and his holy angels day and night.

you are off way off.

that isnt judgement like i mean. he means i have decided what i will do and you will do this. that isnt the condemnation of sins that havent been forgiven or repented at the white throne judgment.

the verse that you should have used was in acts5 annias and saphira lying before the holy spirit and peter being moved by the holy spirit!

that is only once for example that happened.

men lie to god alot and yet none of that happened.

i'm Glad that i have had some Good teaching in my life and also read the word myself.

Judgment is death of the flesh but our souls live on forever. The wages of sin is death and nothing else. Christians changed God's laws with pagan beliefs.

 

[jasoncran]

i really dont know what to say that one tops the cake.

uh no we werent there with christ we werent even alive that predestitanation things means this God knew we would come to be and what choice we would made and already set things up for us(that is a calvin pov) mine is al little different from that but close enough.