[_ Old Earth _] What kind of theory is Creationism? (THE HOCUS POCUS THEORY)

[Soma-Sight]

This was posted in Heidi's evolution thread and I would like to start a discussion on the mechanism that God uses to create....... If evolution is so "fallible", what is "unfallible" about the Creationism theory as far as verifying empirically the "Sola Scriptura Science" explanation?

How can you be a Christian and not believe that God created man and animals the way the bible said he did?

The problem here Heidi is the simple fact that the Genesis account of the creative act of physical reality as we know it..... is as "specific" as a three year old explaining the science of RNA transcription to a college graduate educational convention.....

Not only does the child not know of the existance of RNA Polymerase II, he probably doesnt even know how many hydrogen bonds Adanine forms with Uracil......

The exact "mechanism" of God's creative abilities as described in the Biblical account is "lacking" in the simplest semblance of terms with any "definable" humanistic parallels....

So a simple question for you Heidi is..... what is the correct "hypothesis" that a Christian should take in regards to interpretting the Genesis account in light of its description.....? Should we believe in "THE HOCUS POCUS PARADIGM" which is an overweight, white God sitting on a cloud waving a magic wand around creating things into existance on a 2 Dimensional electrical gradient?

That is basically what the Evangelical camp holds to be true in recent times.... I just am not too sure on empirically validating this theory with our current scientific and rational knowledge....

 

[Heidi]

I just answered this post in another thread.

 

[Heidi]

How can you be a Christian and not believe that God created man and animals the way the bible said he did?

The problem here Heidi is the simple fact that the Genesis account of the creative act of physical reality as we know it..... is as "specific" as a three year old explaining the science of RNA transcription to a college graduate educational convention.....

Not only does the child not know of the existance of RNA Polymerase II, he probably doesnt even know how many hydrogen bonds Adanine forms with Uracil......

The exact "mechanism" of God's creative abilities as described in the Biblical account is "lacking" in the simplest semblance of terms with any "definable" humanistic parallels....

So a simple question for you Heidi is..... what is the correct "hypothesis" that a Christian should take in regards to interpretting the Genesis account in light of its description.....? Should we believe in "THE HOCUS POCUS PARADIGM" which is an overweight, white God sitting on a cloud waving a magic wand around creating things into existance on a 2 Dimensional elecrtical gradient?

That is basically what the Evangelical camp holds to be true in recent times.... I just am not too sure on empirically validating this theory with our current scientific and rational knowledge....

Yes, the explanation in Gensis is simple enough for a 3 year old to understand it. But evolutionists apparently cannot.

Gensis 1:25, "And God made the wild animals according to their own kinds, the livestock according to their own kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their own kinds."

"Then God said 'Let us make man in our image in our likeness and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground...the Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being."

This is, as you say, clear enough for a child to understand. God created men separately in his image and formed him from the dust of the earth, not coming our of the wombs of animals!

But again, man thinks he know better how we were created. So he invents a theory that the DNA of primates spontaneously and accidentally developed new characteristics of speech, cognition, the ability to conceptualize, etc.. So again, where did these characterisitcs come from? :o Mutation cannot produce new genes that are of a superior quality & not inherent in the cell structure of the species they inhabit! It can only act on the characteristics already present in the cell! This has been shown throughout history. And the odds that 2 couples of primates had the exact same mutation so as to produce 2 different offspring who will eventually mate and produce thier own offspring that will eventually turn into man is not only astronomical, but preposterous and has not been shown throughout history.

But since evolutionists simply can't admit there's a God, they have to find some way to prove that God did not create man. So they go back to the drawing board to study the cells and find some way to turn the impossible into the possible. But reality shows the opposite. It bears out the biblical account of creation perfectly! Humans still breed humans and animals still breed animals. Humans rule over anumals and are in the likeness of God because we can form concepts, think, speak, build buildings, rocket ships, etc.

But it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what humans breed & what animals breed. That's why Jesus said to come to him like a little child. Children do not have the sin of pride to think they have all the answers. All they do is observe reality and that is why they understand it far more than many adults do. They're not interested in playing God, they're only interested in experiencing & enjoying the reality around them. And that is why they are much happier than adults and more resilient. It is only when they begin to observe what adults do to each other that they become miserable.

 

[Ray Martinez]

Re: What kind of theory is Creationism? (THE HOCUS POCUS THE

This was posted in Heidi's evolution thread and I would like to start a discussion on the mechanism that God uses to create

According to the Bible the mechanism is His word which is synonymous with physical things in reality.

Scientific data says information and matter are two separate domains and must be discussed in their own terms.

The Bible says in the begininng was the word (information) and the word was with God and the word was God. (John 1:1) source: Philip Johnson.

The information each cell contains is proof positive that an intelligent agent encoded it into cells.

Darwinists simply assert it somehow hocused pocused into existence.

The problem here Heidi is the simple fact that the Genesis account of the creative act of physical reality as we know it..... is as "specific" as a three year old explaining the science of RNA transcription to a college graduate educational convention.....

Insult = inability to refute.

Also known as very preditible atheist rant.

We know what you believe/your philosophy. What is at issue is if you have any evidence to support and if you can coherently produce an argument.

That is basically what the Evangelical camp holds to be true in recent times.... I just am not too sure on empirically validating this theory with our current scientific and rational knowledge....

How does any alleged scientific data harm Genesis ?

All you have in reality is the naturalist presuppositions packaged as science.

Ray Martinez

 

[Heidi]

Excellent points, Ray. Especially the part about the cell being "hocused-pocused into existence. :D

 

[reznwerks]

hocus

Excellent points, Ray. Especially the part about the cell being "hocused-pocused into existence. :D

You thought that was good? That is no different than claiming that as yet an unprovable , unevidenced God did it. If you don't have an answer to something then God did it , case closed. LOL
Ray had no good points to speak of. He referenced as fact that the "word" was physical. How so? The word could also reference "law" or "power" depending on what you wanted to convey.

Ray also said:
"Scientific data says information and matter are two separate domains and must be discussed in their own terms."
This is somehow earth shattering? Since when has anyone tried to link or discuss info with matter in the same definition. It's no different than apples and oranges.


Ray said
"The information each cell contains is proof positive that an intelligent agent encoded it into cells."
No it doesn't. That is an assumption on your part. All it means is that cells operate on a program and nothing more. If you are amazed fine but again it doesn't mean a God did it.

Hocused pocused into existance?I suppose it makes perfect sense to just say an invisible , unproved God, who somehow always existed and had no beginning did this. The human mind cannot even comprehend the meaning of "never had a beginning" yet theists just repeat the dogma as fact. Not having an answer is OK.
Ray said
We know what you believe/your philosophy. What is at issue is if you have any evidence to support and if you can coherently produce an argument.
A more important question is DO YOU have any evidence to make the claims you do. Evolutions DO have evidence to make the claims they do , they do have the evidence that 98%of scientists study and test and accept as fact.

Ray said
How does any alleged scientific data harm Genesis ?
Alleged? Scientific data is derived from fact and observation. Anything alleged would be the first step in the scientific task of hypothesis. You see this is where theists get confused. Science starts with a hypothesis then tests that hypothesis and then draws a conclusion. Theists on the other hand have started with the solution and are now trying desparately to find out how they got there.

All you have in reality is the naturalist presuppositions packaged as science.
Actually if anyone can be accused of using presuppositon it is the theists. They have no evidence for what they believe. Evolutionists accept what they believe based on what is shown and tested. Try looking the word up in the dictionary.

Ray Martinez

 

[Heidi]

Sorry, rezenwerks, but I have been where you are. I know exactly how the mind works in a person without the Holy Spirit because I have experienced it. You however, do not know what living with the Holy Spirit is like so you cannot decide which way is better.

Your arguments are very predictable because I once used all of them too. Therefore, you cannot see beyond them because you do not have the perspective of the other side. Once again, it's called tunnel vision. Genuine truth seekers are able to see all sides of an issue. Narrow minds can only see one side. Until you receive the Holy Spirit, you will not be able to understand anything more than the way your mind works now. You will also be outwitted by your opponent because you underestimate him. And underestimating the Holy Spirit has dire consequences from which you can never escape. But since you don't understand the Holy Spirit, you'll have to wait until you experience those dire consequences before you can see the other side. And by then it might be too late.

But you can go ahead and pass on beliefs that we Christians had but have discarded for something better. But thinking that we don't know what you're up to is only fooling yourself, not us. ;-)

 

[reznwerks]

better

Sorry, rezenwerks, but I have been where you are. I know exactly how the mind works in a person without the Holy Spirit because I have experienced it. You however, do not know what living with the Holy Spirit is like so you cannot decide which way is better.
I didn't say it was better only truthful. A drunk is far happier while drunk and delusional then then when sober and faced with reality.

Your arguments are very predictable because I once used all of them too.
They should be predictable because they only echo the truth. To an atheist if there is not reliable evidence then why accept it? In your world if it cannot be disproven then it must be true.

Therefore, you cannot see beyond them because you do not have the perspective of the other side. Once again, it's called tunnel vision.
On the contrary it can't be called tunnel vision as we have already looked at all the evidence or rather not found any that can be considered as such.

Genuine truth seekers are able to see all sides of an issue.
Another cliche that you don't follow yourself. If you honesty looked at what was involved in your claims you would suddenly see the how shallow the evidence is.

Narrow minds can only see one side. Until you receive the Holy Spirit, you will not be able to understand anything more than the way your mind works now.
Recieving the Holy Spirit is nothing more than ones imagination as time and time again those that claim info and insight from the holy spirit conflict with others that claim the holy spirit made insightful info to them. They can't all be right but they can all be wrong.

You will also be outwitted by your opponent because you underestimate him. And underestimating the Holy Spirit has dire consequences from which you can never escape.
Another hollow threat of doom and gloom. There is no evidence of the consequences you make.

But since you don't understand the Holy Spirit, you'll have to wait until you experience those dire consequences before you can see the other side. And by then it might be too late.
Might be to late? Even you are not sure at this point. At the very least this is another hollow threat without any evidence. As I said if there is a God he is not going to judge me based on what I believe. In fact there is no evidence that he is going to judge me at all.After all you have to prove there is a God in the first place then you have to prove he is the God of the bible. This will be no small task on your part.

But you can go ahead and pass on beliefs that we Christians had but have discarded for something better. But thinking that we don't know what you're up to is only fooling yourself, not us. ;-)
I am not trying to decieve anyone. That should be perfectly clear. You should have no delusions as to what I am saying. I don't believe in a supernatural being simple because there is no reason too. There is no evidence of the bible God nor evidence of the fantastic claims in the bible. It is nice to believe such tales but sooner or later one usually wants assurances that what is believed is true. No assurance is available and the bible plainly states this.

 

[Heidi]

Sorry, rezenwerks but I too have looked at everything evolutionists say. As I said, I grew up being fooled by them just as you are. But I can see the flaws in the theory but you cannot. Sorry.

What echoes the truth is reality, my friend. Reality shows that apes breed apes & humans breed humans. It does not show an ape breeding a "homonid." Only those in touch with reality can see that apes breed apes & humans breed humans. Those not in touch with reality make up creatures that come out of the wombs of apes.

Again, the truth can only be found in reality. But reality is the last place you look which is why you can't see the truth about what apes & humans breed.

I guess you'll have to wait until you die to find out what the consequences are of thinking you know better than God. Again, even animals know not to bite the hand that feeds them.

Once again, I used to be as deluded as you are, thinking that I knew better than God. I'm just thankful I learned the truth before I died. You, on the other hand, will probably be deluded until you die. But that's your choice. As Romans 1:18-15 says, God has made himself plain to man through of his creation so that men are without excuse. The truth has been told to you. Your fate is now your responsibility. Debating with you is therefore, a waste of time. I can do nothing more for you.

 

[reznwerks]

amazing

Sorry, rezenwerks but I too have looked at everything evolutionists say. As I said, I grew up being fooled by them just as you are. But I can see the flaws in the theory but you cannot. Sorry.
It's amazing that you with your understanding know more than all the scientists who have studied all the ins an outs of evolution and have tested and retested questioned and requestioned the theories ,ideas etc and somehow all but 2% have been fooled by all the evidence. Absolutely amazing!

What echoes the truth is reality, my friend. Reality shows that apes breed apes & humans breed humans.
Absolutely. Man is an animal or if you will a species unto himself. You can conveniently ignore this fact as you are doing right now but sooner or later this fact will turn on that light that is presently out and you will awaken from you self induced slumber.

It does not show an ape breeding a "homonid." Only those in touch with reality can see that apes breed apes & humans breed humans. Those not in touch with reality make up creatures that come out of the wombs of apes.
Only those in touch with reality can see the obvious. None are so blind as those will not see. Man is in the same family as apes. You may not want to admit it because to do so will show how incorrect you are but the facts are facts. Common sense would tell you that if God existed he surly wouldn't have made us so much like the monkeys and apes. This also means that if we are made in the likeness of God then he must be like an ape as well. Somehow I can't picture a God with a lot of hair or in need of bodily functions or organs.

Again, the truth can only be found in reality. But reality is the last place you look which is why you can't see the truth about what apes & humans breed.
What is your definition of reality? Mine definition is things that can be seen, touched, tested shown to others. It is not claims without evidence , made by invisible beings that can't be seen by others and it is not asking others to believe because you have no other evidence. It is one thing to believe something because it is possible it is quite another to believe something you know is impossible.

I guess you'll have to wait until you die to find out what the consequences are of thinking you know better than God. Again, even animals know not to bite the hand that feeds them.
First the hand must be seen. As I said when one is dead they are not alive , when one is alive they are not dead. You can't occupy both states at the same time. If there is a God and a hereafter for man I will be there and God will not condemn me or anyone else for not believing in that which has no evidence. God of the universe(if he exists) does not reward gullibility.

Once again, I used to be as deluded as you are, thinking that I knew better than God. I'm just thankful I learned the truth before I died.
I don't think you realize I was where you are now and many on this board were also. Atheists are usually former Christians who started asking questions and trying to prove what they were told to believe. They found the evidence lacking and abandoned the practice rather than believe in something that was false.

You, on the other hand, will probably be deluded until you die. But that's your choice. As Romans 1:18-15 says, God has made himself plain to man through of his creation so that men are without excuse. The truth has been told to you. Your fate is now your responsibility. Debating with you is therefore, a waste of time. I can do nothing more for you.
Paul probably wrote Romans and I think you know how I feel about him. He never met Jesus , was probably there at the stoning of Stephen . He makes a claim of a vision as many who are now under medication have done and the rest is history. Paul contradicts Jesus on many points so using Paul as reference is hollow at best. So now you have to question the messenger on the message.

 

[Heidi]

Who said man is in the same family of apes? Scientists? Talk about gullible! Some scientists don't say that. So who's right? Just a guess? You obviously cannot see the difference between apes & humans even though all children can!

Reality is definitely what we can see! And what we can see (at least sane people) is that apes lives in the jungles or in the zoos where man put them and people make the deicisons in the world That's reality. And it is also reality that apes are breeding apes & people are breeding humans. It is not reality that apes are breeding homonids! That exists only in the imagination. No one has ever seen a homonid come out of an ape!

Sorry but I was in a slumber when I bought into the theory of evolution. I've since come out of it, but you're still sleeping.

Facts don't contradict reality, my friend. Evolution not only contradicts the way animals & humans breed, but the whole reproductive process!

Well if you believe you know better than Christ about heaven & hell, then by all means pass your wisdom along to others, Rezenwerks. But you don't fool me one bit. You will also be held accountable for the lives you affect in doing so. But I can assure you when you die you'll find out who was right. And I'm sure not bettin' on you! Then you'll know for sure who created the universe. ;-)

 

[reznwerks]

meet your cousins

Who said man is in the same family of apes? Scientists? Talk about gullible! Some scientists don't say that.
Surly you can give some names. Please don't use those creationist scientists. The name itself is an oxymoron let alone that those that are propagating the ideas either recieved their diploman from a mill or hold a degree not related to the subject. If you were interested in the truth you could find this out yourself. Anyway if you are going to hold your head in the sand going LA LA LA LA LA LA you will never find out what you are denying.

So who's right? Just a guess? You obviously cannot see the difference between apes & humans even though all children can!
Then you should have no problem with this site.
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:7x ... mily&hl=en


Reality is definitely what we can see!
That rules out God and any supernatural beings. I am proud of you.

And what we can see (at least sane people) is that apes lives in the jungles or in the zoos where man put them and people make the deicisons in the world That's reality.
Yes that is because mans brain evolved to make him more intelligent than the other animals.


And it is also reality that apes are breeding apes & people are breeding humans. It is not reality that apes are breeding homonids! That exists only in the imagination. No one has ever seen a homonid come out of an ape!
No one ever said it did. That is your imagination which is quite active.

Sorry but I was in a slumber when I bought into the theory of evolution. I've since come out of it, but you're still sleeping.
That is impossible. If you believe in the creation theory you do so in spite of the evidence not because of it. Believing in a fairy tale is a lot easier than facing the truth of reality. Remember how you felt when you found out there was no Santa, or Easter Bunny, or tooth fairy? You didn't believe in those things? Well maybe that explains a lot.

Facts don't contradict reality, my friend.
I guess they don't. However facts seem to be very rare where you are concerned. We have had a lot of conviction, but facts? I don't think so.

Evolution not only contradicts the way animals & humans breed, but the whole reproductive process!
Evolution doesn't contradict anything as the theory goes hand and hand with what is found. Reality compliments evolution. You may not like it for obvious reasons but thats the math of the equation.

Well if you believe you know better than Christ about heaven & hell, then by all means pass your wisdom along to others, Rezenwerks.
I am. If you think you can prove what you say do so. At least provide some evidence that is acceptable and believable. Is that too much to ask? In fact that is all we are asking.

But you don't fool me one bit. You will also be held accountable for the lives you affect in doing so.
Judge not lest ye....... You sound like a vindictive person. How can I be held responsible for getting others to prove their faith?

But I can assure you when you die you'll find out who was right. And I'm sure not bettin' on you! Then you'll know for sure who created the universe. ;-)\
As I said before many times. If I get out of bed one day and my body doesn't follow that will be a great day indeed. Secondly I am most assured that if I am in fact judged by my deeds in life , not being gullible is not going to condemn me to an ever burning hell or even a few hours in the oven.Lastly if I am walking about in my new ghostly garb( I hope they have the right size and color) I will be having coffee with you and still debating .LOL