Bible Study What subject did Jesus teach on more than hell, money, salvation or repentence

[Danus]

When I think of the KOG, I think of it's definition in its simplest form to be a spiritual domain where God is sovereign. This to me is the essence of a belief in God, in Christ, in salvation, the Christian life, and all related to the very embodiment of Christian spirituality, which for the Christian has no boundaries, and in fact does manifest it's reality in the physical world in the lives of those whom God has chosen.

So, I think this subject is more an issue with definition than anything else, with the problem being that some see the KOG as "Temporal" (relating to worldly as opposed to spiritual affairs; secular in essence), I think this is a huge mistake, because it attempts to make the KOG a legalistic collective conformity on mans terms.

God has never, and will never, meet with man on mans terms. If God reigns, then He is King, and if He is, then he is sovereignty so. His Kingdom is obvious both then, now and in the future, regardless of anyone's awareness of it. It encompasses all we see and know, or ever could.

And so, to me, much of the preached messages on the KOG that attempt to bring the temporal world into some sort of Godly conformity in line with the idea of Gods kingdom, have in fact not recognized it to begin with, but are never the less a part of it.

When Christ spoke of hell, money, salvation or repentance, he does not separate these things from the KOG, rather he delineates the KOG. All anyone can do is repeate what Christ said, or point it out. However to the OP point I say "yes". Jesus Christ spoke of the KOG more than anything else.

 

[P31Woman]

When I think of the KOG, I think of it's definition in its simplest form to be a spiritual domain where God is sovereign. This to me is the essence of a belief in God, in Christ, in salvation, the Christian life, and all related to the very embodiment of Christian spirituality, which for the Christian has no boundaries, and in fact does manifest it's reality in the physical world in the lives of those whom God has chosen.

So, I think this subject is more an issue with definition than anything else, with the problem being that some see the KOG as "Temporal" (relating to worldly as opposed to spiritual affairs; secular in essence), I think this is a huge mistake, because it attempts to make the KOG a legalistic collective conformity on mans terms.

God has never, and will never, meet with man on mans terms. If God reigns, then He is King, and if He is, then he is sovereignty so. His Kingdom is obvious both then, now and in the future, regardless of anyone's awareness of it. It encompasses all we see and know, or ever could.

And so, to me, much of the preached messages on the KOG that attempt to bring the temporal world into some sort of Godly conformity in line with the idea of Gods kingdom, have in fact not recognized it to begin with, but are never the less a part of it.

When Christ spoke of hell, money, salvation or repentance, he does not separate these things from the KOG, rather he delineates the KOG. All anyone can do is repeate what Christ said, or point it out. However to the OP point I say "yes". Jesus Christ spoke of the KOG more than anything else.

Job Well Done!

Best explination of Kingdom of God I can remember hearing.

 

[SlickPen50]

Danus, DO you feel I am attempting bring the KOG into the the temporal world in what I have said thus far?

 

[vocalyocal]

I believe you are correct, and in the overlooking the fifth and final kingdom that we are told would come upon the earth, the one that would never be left to another, Its apparent that the kingdoms mentioned in Daniel are spiritual kingdoms manifested by real live humans, just as Gods kingdom is manifested by real live believers, which have no borders or single nationality.

It makes only sense that the only interest in the Kingdom of God, in its coming will be destroying false satanic kingdoms that were shown to Jesus on the high mountian top. These kingdoms we are told are all destroyed "at the same time" thus making the kingdoms impossible to be human manmade empires that have already expired into history

 

[SlickPen50]

Vocalyocal, are you addressing me? If so, please detail what you mean by the fifth kingdom and its differentiation from the former four.

Secondly, how is God's kingdom, which I agree is manifesting in the lives of real believers, really evident in today's believers who all see themselves from within borders and nationalities?

It seems your eschatology informs your view of God's kingdom being fully viable only in its final state. Did I understand you correctly?

 

[SlickPen50]

I read George Eldon Ladd's landmark book on the Kingdom of God. It was great but it did not seem to imbue the same character as that in the NT. The one thing that is present in all forms of modern teaching about the kingdom of God, is that all teach from within the presupposition of belonging to the society around us, or being acceptable to it.

The social gospel is about improving the social order that religionist belong to.
The prosperity version of the KOG seeks to take advantage of the temporal order, call it God's blessing and proof of His kingdom through our lives.
The dominionist version of the KOG seeks be the most dominant force in temporal society so as to be a dictator over it.
The dispensational (hear after notion) doesn't have an "in this life" aspect to its teaching but seeks to seem acceptable to the society, be it's citizen and fill the roll of the religious element.

All four are fixated with the doings of the temporal order because they either will profit from it or they will be victimized by it and they want to keep the former going.

Christ's teaching though unsettled the temporal order whether it was Rome or Judea and the religious community. He seemed to care less about what they were doing and how it might affect Him and the progeny of His ministry. Paul was the same way. They did not try to improve Rome, human condition, social evils or even the unjust aspects of humankind.

Jesus and Paul taught as if they had initiated an entirely new order, one that coexisted with the temporal order but one that contrasted it utterly. And the temporal order was continually unsettled and scared of it.

The social order today could careless about what calls itself church, there is nothing notable about it, there is nothing irrefutable about it other than than its merely exists. Its pronunciations are meaningless, its following is powerless over themselves: meaning they are more of a bad testimony than good. To compare the current what calls itself church and the early church as being one in the same could not be more unprovable.

The kingdom of God is merely an ethereal topic today that is woven enough into awareness that the simple dismiss concern and the disparity between the NT and the modern teaching about the KOG. This meager representation is sufficient to confuse it with the real mccoy.

But God is going to sovereignly going to bring the reality of the KOG back into the temporal realty, even in the west. And church folks will largely be surprised by it as well as scandalized.

 

[reba]

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[John 8:32]

Strictly by scripture, money.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

The dispensational (hear after notion) doesn't have an "in this life" aspect to its teaching but seeks to seem acceptable to the society, be it's citizen and fill the roll of the religious element.

I have to take exception to this. As a dispensationalist, I know for a fact that we view the Kingdom of Heaven/God as having an internal existence for the believer now, with the coming Kingdom on the New Heaven and the New Earth it's ultimate fulfillment.

 

[SlickPen50]

John 8:32, I think if you check the number of mentions money receives and that of the kingdom of God, you will find that the KOG ought weighs most subjects in the NT, and certainly the most popular subjects in "church" today. In many cases, money was was allegorically used to talk about the KOG. I can provide a list of texts that speak of the KOG, its quite lengthy.

 

[SlickPen50]

thisnumbersdisconnected, In my experience in the CMA and with dispensational fundamentalists, any focus on the KOG places the vast majority of concentration on the kingdom of the hereafter. I would like you to substantiate what you are saying, because it run counter to my experience and exposure with dispensationalists. Even George Eldon Ladd's 1959 book about this subject, doesn't really say much about the here and now.

But why don't we get to the scriptures. We can find all sorts of diversions in theology. But what about the scriptures. What do they say about "the now" aspects about the KOG and does this take away from "the then" realities. Can both be equally true and dynamic?

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

thisnumbersdisconnected, In my experience in the CMA and with dispensational fundamentalists, any focus on the KOG places the vast majority of concentration on the kingdom of the hereafter.

Then I would submit that your "experience" is limited in scope and has not sufficiently investigated the dispensationalist teaching, because your view is only partial, and does not reflect an accurate image of that teaching.

 

[SlickPen50]

thisnumbersdisconnected, I am not here to argue theology or have to do so because of thinking I have to stand on a piece of it. Neither am I here to attack or marginalize other's theology. I am sorry your apparent view seems disrespected by my comments.

This subject is hard for folks to deal with, which is why I think it is given a backseat in "church" today. I can't speak for the entirety of "dispensationalism" only that which I have experienced, read and dialoged about. I feel your comments about what my experience is on this subject is a bit of a reach on your part. You don't know me from Adam and so you can't say for sure.

I can say with certainty, that no from of "theology" at any point in "ecclesiastical history" has produced the dynamics of the early church. And it is my understanding that this stark contrast is directly because the KOG was understood and lived in a totally different fashion that at virtually any other point in history since.

If you don't think so, or if you think I am all wet... Blessings to you! Be at peace. You won't be standing before God for me, nor I for you.

I have found something that the typical explanations can't explain away, nor can they out shine. Why am I the bad guy if it doesn't line up with your chosen theology?

I could be wrong, and what would be the damage for it? You could be wrong too, and what would be the damage? In my study, if I was categorically wrong, it would serve God's purposes beter than if I accepted the common views on this subject (of which Dispensationalism is one).

I'd like to study and dialog about this subject with folks. If you've got it all figured out, then what need is there to hang out with us dummies who are still talking?

 

[YosefHayim]

If we were to go and mark a Concordance with the number of mentions of the subjects that I listed in the title of this thread, we'd find a good number of occurances of each. But imagine a subject mentioned more than all of those combined?

Jesus spent a ton time articulating this subject, yet it doesn't make it into the top 100 of subjects preach upon in modern times.

I'm curious if others have caught on to this detail.

Take a stab at what you think this subject is.... it appears more than 130 times by Christ and it also mentioned by almost every NT author, another 28 specific times.

Two or three things come to mind.

1. Love
2. Forgiveness
3. Do not judge

 

[SlickPen50]

YosefHayim, While the three subjects you mention do have significant mentions they do not rank even close to mentions the Kingdom of God.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Slick, in the gospels -- because we're talking about what Jesus taught, not what was taught by other, right? -- there are only 92 mentions of the either the Kingdom of God or the Kingdom of heaven. Other mentions of the word "kingdom" often are not referencing that Kingdom, so I'm not sure where you're getting over 130 mentions.

Also, Jesus taught on love over 140 times. So I have to say, your premise is on shaky ground here.

 

[SlickPen50]

thisnumbersdisconnected, The Kingdom of God (or Heaven) is as you say... But, there is a detail which many over look. Check out these references: Mk 1:14; Mt 4:23; 9:35. Here we have a phrase combining "the gospel" with "the Kingdom of God." In fact, the correct flow is the gospel OF the Kingdom of God. So when we see the plain word "the Gospel," is it then disincluded of any association with the kingdom of God? Or are we separating it out of simplistic thinking?

To me, there is no separation. The gospel is the gospel of the kingdom and nothing else. So, how many more "passive" references did Jesus make concerning the KOG, by only saying "the gospel"? Additionally, there are a couple of texts in Acts which Jesus made reference to the kingdom of God... I believe the entire count is 109 mentions of the KOG directly and 13 passive references to it only using "the gospel." So you are correct, on the count" 122 mentions total.

Now, love:
According to one site I went to "love" is mentioned 131 times in the KJV. So technically you and YosefHayim are correct.

Does this detail take away from my point? In my initial post, I mention hell, money, salvation and repentance, four of the chief subject you will hear in what calls itself church to the abandonment of what Jesus taught, the KOG. Yes, love is a big subject too. But what of it? What calls itself church doesn't abide by that message, even though they talk about it incessantly.

My point is that one of the largest subjects in the NT what calls itself church doesn't talk about it hardly at all and they don't do it either....

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

thisnumbersdisconnected, The Kingdom of God (or Heaven) is as you say... But, there is a detail which many over look. Check out these references: Mk 1:14; Mt 4:23; 9:35. Here we have a phrase combining "the gospel" with "the Kingdom of God." In fact, the correct flow is the gospel OF the Kingdom of God. So when we see the plain word "the Gospel," is it then disincluded of any association with the kingdom of God?

Yes, because the Kingdom of God is not the gospel. I'm sorry, I have to disagree with you there. You have an incorrect grasp of what the Kingdom truly is.

The kingdom of God is the rule of an eternal sovereign God over all creatures and things (Psalm 103:19; Daniel 4:3). The kingdom of God is also the designation for the sphere of salvation entered into at the new birth (John 3:5-7), and is synonymous with the “kingdom of heaven.”

The kingdom of God embraces all created intelligence, both in heaven and earth that are willingly subject to the Lord and are in fellowship with Him. The kingdom of God is, therefore, universal in that it includes created angels and men. It is eternal, as God is eternal, and it is spiritual—found within all born-again believers. We enter the kingdom of God when we are born again, and we are then part of that kingdom for eternity. It is a relationship "born of the spirit" (John 3:5), and we have confident assurance that it is so because the Spirit bears witness with our spirits (Romans 8:16).

God is sovereign, omnipotent, omniscient and the ruler over all of His creation. However, the designation "the kingdom of God" compasses that realm which is subject to God and will be for eternity. The rest of creation will be destroyed. Only that which is part of the "kingdom of God" will remain.

Jesus said to seek first "His kingdom and His righteousness." Does that equate the kingdom to the gospel? NO! The true gospel is the good news that God saves sinners. Man is by nature sinful and separated from God with no hope of remedying that situation. But God, by His power, provided the means of man’s redemption in the death, burial and resurrection of the Savior, Jesus Christ.

The word “gospel” literally means “good news.” But to truly comprehend how good this news is, we must first understand the bad news. As a result of the fall of man in the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3:6), every part of man—his mind, will, emotions and flesh—have been corrupted by sin. Because of man’s sinful nature, he does not and cannot seek God. He has no desire to come to God and, in fact, his mind is hostile toward God (Romans 8:7). God has declared that man’s sin dooms him to an eternity in hell, separated from God. It is in hell that man pays the penalty of sin against a holy and righteous God. This would be bad news indeed if there were no remedy.

But in the gospel, God, in His mercy, has provided that remedy, a substitute for us—Jesus Christ—who came to pay the penalty for our sin by His sacrifice on the cross. This is the essence of the gospel which Paul preached to the Corinthians. In 1 Corinthians 15:2-4, he explains the three elements of the gospel—the death, burial and resurrection of Christ on our behalf. Our old nature died with Christ on the cross and was buried with Him. Then we were resurrected with Him to a new life (Romans 6:4-8). Paul tells us to “hold firmly” to this true gospel, the only one which saves. Believing in any other gospel is to believe in vain. In Romans 1:16-17, Paul also declares that the true gospel is the “power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes” by which he means that salvation is not achieved by man’s efforts, but by the grace of God through the gift of faith (Ephesians 2:8-9).

Because of the gospel, through the power of God, those who believe in Christ (Romans 10:9) are not just saved from hell. We are, in fact, given a completely new nature (2 Corinthians 5:17) with a changed heart and a new desire, will, and attitude that are manifested in good works. This is the fruit the Holy Spirit produces in us by His power. Works are never the means of salvation, but they are the proof of it (Ephesians 2:10). Those who are saved by the power of God will always show the evidence of salvation by a changed life.

There is no "kingdom gospel," which is where I am seeing you coming from. The gospel is the good news of Jesus Christ and His salvation. The kingdom of God/heaven is what for now dwells in the hearts of believers, but what will one day occupy the Earth in place of the evil and sinful world that now occupies it.

 

[P31Woman]

Yes, because the Kingdom of God is not the gospel. I'm sorry, I have to disagree with you there. You have an incorrect grasp of what the Kingdom truly is.

The kingdom of God is the rule of an eternal sovereign God over all creatures and things (Psalm 103:19; Daniel 4:3). The kingdom of God is also the designation for the sphere of salvation entered into at the new birth (John 3:5-7), and is synonymous with the “kingdom of heaven.”

The kingdom of God embraces all created intelligence, both in heaven and earth that are willingly subject to the Lord and are in fellowship with Him. The kingdom of God is, therefore, universal in that it includes created angels and men. It is eternal, as God is eternal, and it is spiritual—found within all born-again believers. We enter the kingdom of God when we are born again, and we are then part of that kingdom for eternity. It is a relationship "born of the spirit" (John 3:5), and we have confident assurance that it is so because the Spirit bears witness with our spirits (Romans 8:16).

God is sovereign, omnipotent, omniscient and the ruler over all of His creation. However, the designation "the kingdom of God" compasses that realm which is subject to God and will be for eternity. The rest of creation will be destroyed. Only that which is part of the "kingdom of God" will remain.

Jesus said to seek first "His kingdom and His righteousness." Does that equate the kingdom to the gospel? NO! The true gospel is the good news that God saves sinners. Man is by nature sinful and separated from God with no hope of remedying that situation. But God, by His power, provided the means of man’s redemption in the death, burial and resurrection of the Savior, Jesus Christ.

The word “gospel” literally means “good news.” But to truly comprehend how good this news is, we must first understand the bad news. As a result of the fall of man in the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3:6), every part of man—his mind, will, emotions and flesh—have been corrupted by sin. Because of man’s sinful nature, he does not and cannot seek God. He has no desire to come to God and, in fact, his mind is hostile toward God (Romans 8:7). God has declared that man’s sin dooms him to an eternity in hell, separated from God. It is in hell that man pays the penalty of sin against a holy and righteous God. This would be bad news indeed if there were no remedy.

But in the gospel, God, in His mercy, has provided that remedy, a substitute for us—Jesus Christ—who came to pay the penalty for our sin by His sacrifice on the cross. This is the essence of the gospel which Paul preached to the Corinthians. In 1 Corinthians 15:2-4, he explains the three elements of the gospel—the death, burial and resurrection of Christ on our behalf. Our old nature died with Christ on the cross and was buried with Him. Then we were resurrected with Him to a new life (Romans 6:4-8). Paul tells us to “hold firmly” to this true gospel, the only one which saves. Believing in any other gospel is to believe in vain. In Romans 1:16-17, Paul also declares that the true gospel is the “power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes” by which he means that salvation is not achieved by man’s efforts, but by the grace of God through the gift of faith (Ephesians 2:8-9).

Because of the gospel, through the power of God, those who believe in Christ (Romans 10:9) are not just saved from hell. We are, in fact, given a completely new nature (2 Corinthians 5:17) with a changed heart and a new desire, will, and attitude that are manifested in good works. This is the fruit the Holy Spirit produces in us by His power. Works are never the means of salvation, but they are the proof of it (Ephesians 2:10). Those who are saved by the power of God will always show the evidence of salvation by a changed life.

There is no "kingdom gospel," which is where I am seeing you coming from. The gospel is the good news of Jesus Christ and His salvation. The kingdom of God/heaven is what for now dwells in the hearts of believers, but what will one day occupy the Earth in place of the evil and sinful world that now occupies it.

I agree they are not the same thing.

1 Cor. 1:17-18: “For Christ did not send me to baptize,” “but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.” “For The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to those who are being saved it is the power of God.” “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes” (Rom. 1:16).

 

[SlickPen50]

Yes, because the Kingdom of God is not the gospel. I'm sorry, I have to disagree with you there. You have an incorrect grasp of what the Kingdom truly is.

Do I now?! I always love when people take one little thing, they've misunderstood, and then stretch it to cover everything about what you've NOT sad.

Thisnumbersdisconnected, Isn't the gospel OF the Kingdom of God? I do think that is what the NT tells us... Are they the same? I don't think I made that statement or implication.... Thats like asking if oxygen is the same thing as water... One helps comprise the other, would you not agree? Hence my point.

You say:

The kingdom of God embraces all created intelligence, both in heaven and earth that are willingly subject to the Lord and are in fellowship with Him. The kingdom of God is, therefore, universal in that it includes created angels and men. It is eternal, as God is eternal, and it is spiritual—found within all born-again believers. We enter the kingdom of God when we are born again, and we are then part of that kingdom for eternity.

I don't find biblical support for this spiritualization of what the bible does say about the Kingdom of God.

I would agree that the KOG is from eternity to eternity.... But I don't think, nor can you prove, that it is merely spiritual. That is an assumption which a certain type of theology allows for that scripture does not include nor imply....

You say:

However, the designation "the kingdom of God" compasses that realm which is subject to God and will be for eternity.

Please cite the scripture that says as much.

You say:

Jesus said to seek first "His kingdom and His righteousness." Does that equate the kingdom to the gospel? NO!

Please show me where I said this? I did mention, Mk 1:14; Mt 4:23; 9:35, where the flow correlates the gospel to the kingdom of God... But, I have not quoted Mt 6:33 the way you have misunderstood me as so doing... I did say, "To me, there is no separation. The gospel is the gospel of the kingdom and nothing else."

Like you, I accept that the gospel is the good news... But modern teachers have made it the good news of getting saved from sin and hell ONLY. And they have cut the connection to the kingdom of God being ANYTHING more than a spiritualized reference. This only can be done by and for theology, not in serving Christ's purposes.

We find that in the full measure of what the bible does tell us, that we are no longer what we were when we follow Christ. And as He died for all and raised us anew, not to live for our own purposes but to reconcile the world (as much as will come) to Him, see: 2 Cor. 5:14-20.

We can only reconcile and be ambassadors towards those we do not belong to... And this is not simply a spiritualization.