What The Bible Has The Others Don't...

[VaultZero4Me]

Re: What The Biblle Has The Others Don't...

But what about the point of so many hells? If you pick Christianity over Islam, and Islam is correct, you will go to hell for Idol worship.

Are you not afraid that you picked the wrong belief system and you are destined to burn in the Islamic hell? There are so many other hells. How do you know you picked the right life boat?

I know that you'll say because you know that the NT is right, therefore Christ is the only way, but an Islamic person would say the same thing with as much conviction, and they will claim you to be destined for hell as much as me.

My point is that you believe that a few hells do not exist, I just take it one step further and say no hells exists. I find the idea of a loving deity who damns people to eternal torment to not mesh.

It's either one way or the other. He loves, or his is vengeful.

 

[turnorburn]

Re: What The Biblle Has The Others Don't...

I'm going to

you said that.

 

[Rick W]

Re: What The Biblle Has The Others Don't...

It's either one way or the other. He loves, or his is vengeful.

I suppose you class everyone into one of those distinct categories? Can't be anything in between or even a mix of both?
That's quite a system that you use to judge God or anyone else for that matter.

 

[VaultZero4Me]

Re: What The Biblle Has The Others Don't...

Not vengeful.

If I seek retribution, I certainly do not do that out of love.

For instance, if your child disobeys you, do you correct them to get back at them, or do you correct them so that they do not do the undesired action again?

What if a parent told you their child ate some candy they were not supposed to. Then the parent said that because they were mad at being disobeyed, they poisoned the candy, and the child did it again and died. And to top it off, the parent knew for sure that the amount of poison they used was enough to kill the child and meant for it to happen.

Certainly you would not consider that an act of love. Maybe they did love the child, but were chemically imbalance and not thinking clearly, or maybe they did not love the child and the thought of getting back at them made them happy.

Now, before you say that is a bad analogy, think about hell. If it is under God's control to send anyone there, how can it be an act of anything else but retribution to that person if hell is eternal.

How can it be a deterrent if people are sent there when they do not even know it exists, or have even ever heard of God. Such as the Native Americans before the pilgrims, or the Mayans. Or countless other cultures and people now and in the last 2,000 years.

What about all the people before Christ who were not Jewish. There was no established way for them to get out of hell, even if they heard of YHWH, because they were not of the chosen people.

What purpose does it serve God to burn people in hell eternally? If it is because they can not be near God and have sin, why does he just not poof them out of existence after death? It certainly would be in his power if he was omnipotent. It just doesn't mesh to me.

 

[Rick W]

Re: What The Biblle Has The Others Don't...

Satan doesn't want people to believe he or Hell exists and many people are willing to accept that. Satan takes pleasure in deceiving people not to take God's warnings seriously. He did it in the Garden and he does it now.

Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

Did God really say...?

He puts doubt into the mind of Eve, makes her reconsider her position, mixes a little truth with the lie and Eve falls for it.


Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

So Satan contradicts God's word. Nah, she won't die.



Ye shall not surely be condemned. No loving God will do that.
Same ol' same ol'

Eve fell for that line. I don't have to. Not after seeing the results of doing so.

 

[Christopher]

Re: What The Biblle Has The Others Don't...

That's great Christopher. You do what's right, you don't steal or drive fast. In other words you're a good person in your eyes. You'll get what you deserve.
As for me I don't care how "goody goody" I think I am. It's my hope, my faith that in salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ that I don't get what I deserve.
:wink:

Let me say, first off, that I did not intend to appear "goody goody" or self righteous in my last post. I was attempting, in good faith, to answer your questions.

As for your "You'll get what you deserve" remark, I'm sorry, you're not going to scare me back into Christianity. No one has established to me that hell exists, and, no, quoting the Bible doesn't count. It might help if some actually gave cogent responses to my posts instead of nit picking and simply repeating Christian talking points.

Somebody needs to tell Jesus that ...

Fear of punishment is completely selfish, and it doesn't promote concern for others.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Luke 16:23 And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luke 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luke 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Luke 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Luke 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luke 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luke 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Matthew 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Luke 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

Could you actually provide context or commentary on how these passages actually counter my claim? There are many things I could say about these verses, but I want to know why your are quoting these specific passages.

I've known someone else to argue the judgment/punishment of God.

Genesis 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
Genesis 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Genesis 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Genesis 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Oldest lie in the book.

Nice ad hominem there. Nothing I wrote is anything like this. Can anyone here actually answer my posts without demonizing me?

 

[Christopher]

Re: What The Biblle Has The Others Don't...

Satan doesn't want people to believe he or Hell exists and many people are willing to accept that. Satan takes pleasure in deceiving people not to take God's warnings seriously. He did it in the Garden and he does it now.

Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

Did God really say...?

He puts doubt into the mind of Eve, makes her reconsider her position, mixes a little truth with the lie and Eve falls for it.


Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

So Satan contradicts God's word. Nah, she won't die.

Ye shall not surely be condemned. No loving God will do that.
Same ol' same ol'

Eve fell for that line. I don't have to. Not after seeing the results of doing so.

I am not attempting to spread lies, but asking questions and making completely valid observations. I believe that VaultZero4Me is too.

I'd admit that if hell existed and was an actual place, and if Satan existed, that he would want to deceive people and cause doubt. Well, then...clear the deception and doubt. Answer VaultZero4Me's and my questions, please.

Let me repeat a few of them. Please note that VaultZero4Me and I don't believe that everything written in the Bible is true. You'll need extra-biblical evidence and/or arguments.

1. If hell exists, and is an actual place as the OP claims, provide evidence of its location. (Here's an extra question: If you think hell exists, but isn't a place, please give me hell's ontology without stealing from materialism. i.e. you can't use location, time, matter and energy for they are part of the material universe. I'd prefer a positively stated ontology.)

2. If you believe in these died, went to hell, but was revived stories, please answer my questions regarding how these stories do not conflict with orthodox Christian beliefs. Please also give evidence that they were experiences of a something external, and not solely in the person's mind.

3. Please answer my points about Gehenna and Sheol.

4. Answers to my moral/ethical objects still could use some developing, as laid out in my previous post.

5. VaultZero4Me's main point seems to be: how do you know you aren't being deceived. When all sides make the same claim - my religious views are right, yours are wrong, and if you don't believe me you're going to hell - the claims no longer are convincing. We need something more, something independent. Something more convincing than I'm right and you are wrong.

In closing, it boils down to this. I know what the Bible says, I know what the orthodox beliefs are, but I have questions about them and objections to them. By repeating the Bible and the orthodox doctrines back to me, you're not answering a thing. The questions I ask and the objections I raise are not meant to convince you I'm right. I'm asking them because I'm curious if any Christian can actually provide real answers to my questions and objections. I'm searching, not proselytizing.

[Edit: grammar & clarity]

 

[turnorburn]

I think your using your time unwisely, if you don't believe you won't believe, Christ did many miracles, so many in fact that the bible says the number is so great they would fill the library's of the world. The point I'm trying to make is, if you don't believe this you won't. Have a look at this world stat clock, it counts the number of births and deaths, and one day you'll just be another statistic, once launch into the eternity there's no second chance. Today I fixed a glass of ice water,
and I got to tell you it tasted great, pure crisp clean and icy. In hell there isn't any ice water, there isn't any water at all, I thought of the rich man speaking to Abraham and pleading for just one drop, he was told there wasn't any. No I saw myself waking in the middle of the night and grabbing for that glass next to the bed, but there wasn't a glass, there wasn't a bed, and there wasn't a night stand where it would have been. Then I awoke, by myself thirsty and burning in a place of torment, no door, no floor, its bottomless, and my heart is bursting with fear. Nobody will ever hear me again, ever, tick tock tick tock.. :

http://www.chippynews.com/worldclock.htm

 

[Rick W]

Re: What The Biblle Has The Others Don't...

turnorburn hit the nail on the head. If you don't believe then you simply don't believe. Period. Our answers will never satisfy your questions since you've already made up your minds what you don't believe. If you object to something then no amount of scripture will change your mind. You'll object to the answers anyway for one reason or another since those answers aren't the answers you're looking for in the first place. That's just the way it goes.
Why should we bang our heads against the wall for nothing? Makes no sense.
:smt102

Please note that VaultZero4Me and I don't believe that everything written in the Bible is true. You'll need extra-biblical evidence and/or arguments.

"Please note that VaultZero4Me and I don't believe that everything written in the Bible is true."

Noted.

"You'll need extra-biblical evidence and/or arguments."

No, I don't need a thing. You need the spirit of belief. A request on your part doesn't mean an obligation on my part. I'm not getting paid to do this you know. :-D

For us scripture is the Word of God inspired by God and penned by those He chose. It's His witness of His pursuit of man, not man's pursuit of Him. Man is already going to Hell, God doesn't have to send anyone there. Besides, if men choose not to be with God in life then why should He make men be with Him after death?
All you have to do is take his outstretched hand in faith that He can save you from Hell and He will be faithful, loving and merciful to do so. But if you don't reach for Him, turning your back on Him instead you'll arrive at said destination. If you don't believe you need saved then you won't be. Simple as that. I can't be any plainer.

 

[VaultZero4Me]

Re: What The Biblle Has The Others Don't...

If I came on strong I apologize. I am not on here to try to unconvenience you of hell.

My questions really just center around how does one who believes in hell as eternal torment, rationalize that with the rest of their faith. I just do not know any christians who believe in a literal hell anymore.

First of all, why do you think hell exists?

Was it in existence before the universe?

Was it created by God?

What happened to all the gentiles before Jesus Christ?

What happens to all the Jews after Jesus Christ? Are they no longer Gods chosen, therefore doomed to hell?

What happens to the young and babies who dies before being saved?

What happens to the many people of the world who died without ever hearing the message of the bible?

I promise you I won't try to start some kind of debate. You won't convince me in a hell nor I convince you of its non-existence.

 

[turnorburn]

You must understand why hell was created, it wasn't created for you or me, it was created for the
the Devil and his angels. They attempted to overthrow the kingdom of God in a rebellion of universal proportion, and when that failed

was created. Satan has been a lier from the beginning, he has deceived the world by causing people to think hell was made
for them. Jesus came to rescue you, to give you back that relationship we had with God before Adam and Eve destroyed it. He suffered in your stead, all of the sins of mankind from the beginning were put on his shoulders. I'm sure he was quite terrified knowing that separation from his Father was coming. Now he waits for you to go forward and accept the pardon he paid for with his blood.

In His Service,
turnorburn

 

[Rick W]

Re: What The Biblle Has The Others Don't...

If I came on strong I apologize. I am not on here to try to unconvenience you of hell.

My questions really just center around how does one who believes in hell as eternal torment, rationalize that with the rest of their faith. I just do not know any christians who believe in a literal hell anymore.

First of all, why do you think hell exists?

Was it in existence before the universe?

Was it created by God?

What happened to all the gentiles before Jesus Christ?

What happens to all the Jews after Jesus Christ? Are they no longer Gods chosen, therefore doomed to hell?

What happens to the young and babies who dies before being saved?

What happens to the many people of the world who died without ever hearing the message of the bible?

I promise you I won't try to start some kind of debate. You won't convince me in a hell nor I convince you of its non-existence.

In the presence of God there can be no sin, only good. Totally separated from God there can be no good.
God created light. Without light there is darkness. Likewise without heat there is cold and where there is no good there is only evil.

(I know. If God is omnipresent and He's everywhere then how can He not be somewhere?
He's also omnipotent. He can do or be where He pleases or not. )

2Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

"What happened to..."
Scripture doesn't tell us. But what about you?

You can believe there is an existance where there is no good but only evil or you can choose not to believe. Either way, in the end, the existance of Hell doesn't hinge on your belief or mine. But I prefer to believe what Christ preached for He mentioned Hell many times.
I believe Him. You may not. You may believe something else, I don't know. And I can't provide you or anyone else with the reasons why I believe. I don't know myself. Why did it take 45 years for me to come to Christ, to believe Him? I don't know. Nor do I know why I had to believe at all. One minute I thought God's Word was hogwash... the next the power of God. It was that quick.

1Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

I don't have all the answers. Nobody does. Do I have questions? You bet. Will I get all the answers while locked in the physical? No. And will I get proof why I should believe? Again, no.
I accept that.
I can no more give you proof why I love Jesus anymore than I can give you proof why I fell in love with my wife. It happened. I didn't just up and decide one day after looking at all the evidence or lack thereof to make a solid logical/practical decision to love her. Didn't happen that way at all.
Did some people have objections? Did some people have questions? Would it have mattered even if I couldn't give them satisfactory answers? Nope. Wouldn't have mattered at all. I love her.

Can I come to love the Lord if I seek Him, if I come to know Him more? Can I come to love the Lord if I choose to stay away from Him? And if I choose to stay away from Him why should He make me be with Him when I didn't want to be there in the first place?

 

[VaultZero4Me]

You must understand why hell was created, it wasn't created for you or me, it was created for the
the Devil and his angels. They attempted to overthrow the kingdom of God in a rebellion of universal proportion, and when that failed

was created. Satan has been a lier from the beginning, he has deceived the world by causing people to think hell was made
for them. Jesus came to rescue you, to give you back that relationship we had with God before Adam and Eve destroyed it. He suffered in your stead, all of the sins of mankind from the beginning were put on his shoulders. I'm sure he was quite terrified knowing that separation from his Father was coming. Now he waits for you to go forward and accept the pardon he paid for with his blood.

In His Service,
turnorburn

I looked into that before. And for all I have sought, I cannot find any scriptures to back up that teaching explicitly. It is seemed to be more inferred out of some of the books, especially Revelations. And Revelations is not wholly considered to be a prophetic text in all of Christian belief. Many believe, with much evidence, that it was a poetic book to warn current Christians to stay away from conforming to Greco-Roman society. Pitting that society as ultimate evil. In fact, Neros name calculates to be 666 when written in Aramic and using Hebrew numerology.

Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Take that verse and the fact that speaking of Nero directly would have led to death and torture, and the fact that Neros name equals 666 and it is hard to not believe that the text was speaking of Greco-Roman conforming and the evilness of it.

Also, the Bible is not explicit that even the snake in Genesis was even Satan. The bible always refers to it as a snake and nothing more. It has just been interpreted to be the being of Satan.

 

[turnorburn]

Re: What The Biblle Has The Others Don't...

 

[VaultZero4Me]

Re: What The Biblle Has The Others Don't...

That is grotesque. What is the purpose of displaying that child's suffering?

 

[turnorburn]

These people were a great nation until they chose to forget their maker, a nation that forgot God,
The scriptures speak to it. Listen to the Psalms 9:17~20

17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.
18 For the needy shall not alway be forgotten: the expectation of the poor shall not perish for ever.
19 Arise, O LORD; let not man prevail: let the heathen be judged in thy sight.
20 Put them in fear, O LORD: that the nations may know themselves to be but men. Selah.

If they repent God will heal there land, if they choose to turn to him his mercy is everlasting.
Maybe now you'll understand why a preacher preaches. Our nation is a great nation, there nation "was" a great nation, the choice is ours.


In His Service,
turnorburn

 

[VaultZero4Me]

Re: What The Biblle Has The Others Don't...

I still do not get what the point of displaying that childs suffering for all to see.

There is no link to a christian nation and a prosperous nation. We already talked about that. Japan, Netherlands, Saudi Arabia, Israel. Even China is developing so fast that it stands a good chance of overtaking the US, though it is doing it on the backs of its citizens.

I do not understand how that child's image had any relation to your point, and why it was necessary.

 

[Christopher]

Re: What The Biblle Has The Others Don't...

turnorburn hit the nail on the head. If you don't believe then you simply don't believe. Period.

No. If I don't believe it is because I have seen no good reason to believe. Period.

Our answers will never satisfy your questions since you've already made up your minds what you don't believe.

Just because I don't believe now, doesn't mean I won't ever believe. I haven't made up my mind permanently. Please don't project closed mindedness onto me. It's very insulting.

If you object to something then no amount of scripture will change your mind.

So, use something other than scripture, or use scripture in a way that doesn't require blind faith in it.

You'll object to the answers anyway for one reason or another since those answers aren't the answers you're looking for in the first place. That's just the way it goes.

Of course I'd probably not accept your answers. That doesn't mean I don't want to see them. If you do have answers, how hard is it to give them?

Why should we bang our heads against the wall for nothing? Makes no sense.

True. It is pointless to ask questions to a stone wall. I'll be on my way then.

 

[turnorburn]

You say....

"Just because I don't believe now, doesn't mean I won't ever believe. I haven't made up my mind permanently. Please don't project closed mindedness onto me. It's very insulting"

If you were to leave your computer and take a bathroom break and on the way you tripped,
fell against the tub crushing your skull, then your decision becomes permanent don't you think :

In His Service,
turnorburn

 

[Rick W]

Re: What The Biblle Has The Others Don't...

No. If I don't believe it is because I have seen no good reason to believe. Period.

Just because I don't believe now, doesn't mean I won't ever believe. I haven't made up my mind permanently. Please don't project closed mindedness onto me. It's very insulting.

So, use something other than scripture, or use scripture in a way that doesn't require blind faith in it.

Of course I'd probably not accept your answers. That doesn't mean I don't want to see them. If you do have answers, how hard is it to give them?

True. It is pointless to ask questions to a stone wall. I'll be on my way then.

:smt102

And I've answered the questions already.