What's goin on here?

[Georges]

Paul sez......

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, [and commanding] to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
1Ti 4:4 For every creature of God [is] good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

and.....

1Cr 8:1 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.

1Cr 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol [is] nothing in the world, and that [there is] none other God but one.

1Cr 8:7 Howbeit [there is] not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat [it] as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
1Cr 8:8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.

1Cr 8:10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;

and....

Rom 14:20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed [are] pure; but [it is] evil for that man who eateth with offence.


Yet Jesus said.....

Rev 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

and,

Rev 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.


Paul said it's OK, because Idols are nothing...

Jesus said it is not OK because Idols are something.....


Paul says....

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, [and commanding] to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.


Is Paul stating that Jesus is teaching the doctrine of devils? I would say to Paul....."That's blaspheme bruddah"......


What so you say?

 

[Georges]

Well?......Tell me what is in err with the above post....

It's in black and white...

Does Paul permit all food.....including meat sacrificed to idols? Yes or No...?

Does Jesus in Revelation chastise those who eat meat sacrificed to idols? Yes or No....?

Does Paul state that those who abstain from meats as giving heed to the docrtrine of devils...? Yes or No?

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;


Almost sounds like another situation Jesus faced earlier....

Mar 3:22 And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.
Mar 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

MY...my...my......what's a believer to do...? Who is he going to believe...?

I choose Jesus' words....only, how about you?

 

[Lewis]

Dude are you back on Paul again ? Paul is not bothering you.

 

[lovely]

Hi George,

Concerning the verses in Revelation...

Revelation 2:14
Jesus is speaking to the church at Pergamos that has been led into compromise through false teaching. Balaam's doctrine, what was it? It was him using his gift for monetary gain, and willing to cause Israel to stumble to get it. We know that the Jews had/have specific dietary laws that were broken when they married Moabite women that led to fornication, and idolatrous feasts. Jesus is saying that this church has stumbled by the same false doctrine, and has compromised itself by the doctrine of Balaam, and by the doctrine of the Nicolaitans...also self-indulgent. The doctrine that distorts God's grace, and encourages people to sin in the name of liberty. This actually opposes Paul's teaching. "What shall we say then, shall we continue to sin that grace may abound, God forbid! How shall we that are dead to sin live any longer therein?" In Revelation 20:17 we see that the overcomers are given some of the hidden manna...this is Jesus the spiritual bread of life. The eating things sacrificed to idols is the lust of the flesh, and the turning away from the bread of life.


Revelation 2:20

Once again this is speaking of a doctrine. A doctrine of Jezebel. What was this doctrine? She usurped the authority of her husband, caused Ahab to do evil to God, and Israel, for a vineyard, and to worship Baal. Jesus is addressing the church in Thyatira. Here a woman, who falsely calls herself a prophetess has been allowed to teach, and has seduced the church away from God into idolatry, and selling itself for prosperity. She was given an opportunity to repent, but didn't. This is another doctrine that has corrupted the church into the lusts of the flesh, and of feasting upon the things of the world. Those who commit adultery with her will be cast into tribulation, and she will be cast into hell. Again, they are called back to repentance, and obedience. Notice verse 24, he addresses those who have not known this doctrine there...those who have not known the depths of satan. Jezebel's doctrine was this idea that one can serve God, and practice, or explore, the things of satan. It reminds me of those spiritualists (mostly women) who mix spells, and witchcraft, with the christian faith.

I do not believe that these verses contradict Paul at all, George, and in truth, I believe they are talking about doctrines that promote disobedience, and idolatry, and the intermarriage with sin. The Lord bless you.

 

[jgredline]

George, George, George.
There is no contridiction there.
What you have is your very Biased opinion against the Apostle Paul and seeing things that simply are not true. Lets start by looking at your opening vesres.
I will now interpret them for you. Let me know if there is something you do not understand and I will try and explain it to you. I am using the NKJV
4:1 There are two ways in which the Spirit might be thought of as speaking expressly. First of all, what Paul is about to say was certainly given to him by divine revelation. But it might also mean that throughout the Scriptures, and particularly in the NT, it is expressly taught that the latter times will be characterized by departure from the faith.

Latter times means “in later times,†periods of time subsequent to that time when the apostle was writing.

Some will depart from the faith. The word some is characteristic of 1 Timothy. What was a minority in this Epistle seems to have become the majority in 2 Timothy. The fact that these people depart or fall away from the faith does not mean that they were ever saved, but simply that they had professed to be Christians. They knew about the Lord Jesus Christ and had been told that He was the only Savior. They professed for a time to follow Him, but then they apostatized from the faith.

One can scarcely read this section without thinking of the rise of cults in our own day. WOF, MORMONS, JW. The way these false systems have spread is accurately described here. A great part of their membership is made up of persons who were formerly in so-called Christian churches. Perhaps at one time these churches had been sound in the faith, but then they drifted toward the social gospel. The cultist teachers such as Benny Hinn, Keneth Copeland, TD Jakes, Keneth Hagin, etc came along offering a more positive message, and these professing Christians were ensnared.
They give willing heed or assent to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons. Deceiving spirits is used here in a figurative sense to describe the false teachers, indwelt by evil spirits, who deceive the unwary. Doctrines of demons does not mean teachings about demons, but rather doctrines which are inspired by demons or have their source in the demon world.

4:2 The word hypocrisy suggests “wearing a mask.†How typical this is of the false cultists! They try to hide their true identity. They do not want people to know the system with which they are identified. They masquerade by using Bible terms and singing Christian hymns. Not only are they hypocrites, but they are liars as well. Their teaching is not according to the truth of God’s word; they know this, and purposely deceive the people.

Their conscience is seared with a hot iron. Perhaps early in their lives their conscience had been tender, but they suppressed it so often and sinned against the light so much that now their conscience has become insensitive and hardened. They no longer have any scruples about contradicting the word of God and teaching things they know are untrue. This describes much of TBN.

4:3 Two of the doctrines of demons are now stated. The first is the teaching that it is wrong to marry. This is directly contrary to the word of God. God Himself instituted marriage, and He did this before sin ever entered the world. There is nothing unholy about marriage between a man and a women and when false teachers forbid marriage, they are attacking what God ordained.

An illustration of this teaching is the law forbidding certain priests and nuns to marry. However, even more directly, this verse refers to the teaching of spiritists called spiritual affinity by which, according to A. J. Pollock, “the marriage tie is derided, and in its practical working, men and women are seduced from their lawful partners to form unholy and unlawful links with their so-called spiritual affinities.â€Â

The second teaching of demons is to abstain from certain foods. Such teaching is found among spiritists, who claim that the eating of animal flesh hinders one in contacting the spirits. Also, among Theosophists and Hindus, there is a horror of sacrificing any kind of life because they believe that the soul of a man may come back and live in an animal or other creature.

The pronoun which may refer to marriage and to foods. Both were created by God to be shared by us with thanksgiving. He did not intend them only for the unregenerate but for those who believe and know the truth.
4:4 Every creature (or creation) of God is good. Both foods and marriage are creations of God, and are not to be refused if ... received with thanksgiving. He instituted marriage for the propagation of human life (see Gen. 1:28), and food for the sustaining of life (Gen. 9:3).
4:5 The word of God sets apart both food and marriage for man’s use. Food is thus sanctified in Genesis 9:3; Mark 7:19; Acts 10:14, 15; and 1Corinthians 10:25, 26. Marriage is set apart in 1 Corinthians 7 and Hebrews 13:4.

They are also sanctified through prayer. Before partaking of a meal, we should bow our heads and give thanks for the food (see Matt. 14:19; Acts 27:35). By this act we are asking the Lord to sanctify the food to strengthen our bodies so that we might serve Him more acceptably. Before entering into marriage we should pray that God will bless the union for His glory, for the blessing of others, and for the good of the bride and groom.
It is a good testimony for Christians to give thanks for meals when in the presence of unsaved people. The blessing should not be showy or long, but neither should we try to conceal the fact that we are thanking God for our food.

So you see George. There is no contridiction. You just need to put it in context. Let me know if there is something you don't understand.

 

[Atonement]

Good responce jgredline

 

[jgredline]

Atone
Thank you. I was going to go look up the verses in Rev, but I noticed Lovely did that already and did a great job with them. Thanks Lovely, you saved me an hours worth of work.

Georges
I am almost done correcting your PDF you e mailed me. I am hoping / praying that when u get it back you will leave the darkside and come to the light.

jg :-D

 

[Atonement]

That was great research on lovely' end. Thank you. What a great MOD we have..

 

[Georges]

Dude are you back on Paul again ? Paul is not bothering you.

Just looking out for your best interest my friend... :-D

 

[Vic C.]

Great responses people... and to think, I almost slapped Dude with the "No anti-Paul" rule. :-D

 

[Georges]

Act 15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men [and] brethren, hearken unto me:

Act 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood.

Act 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written [and] concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from [things] offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

People may not be doing that today...although they are to some degree...in regard to "food sacrificed to idols" the situation of the time and who is teaching what should be examined throughly....

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Hey George!
I found this in my Bible. Should I draw lines through it with a black marker, or cut it out with sissors?
Act 9:10 ¶ And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I [am here], Lord.
Act 9:11 And the Lord [said] unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for [one] called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
Act 9:12 And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting [his] hand on him, that he might receive his sight.
Act 9:13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
Act 9:14 And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
Act 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: Act 9:16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
Act 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, [even] Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

 

[Imagican]

May I point out that Paul was a man LED BY THE SPIRIT and what he understood was that ONCE one's heart if filled with God, there are MANY things that this person could DO without compromising their Spiritual faithfulness. That is NOT always the case for 'babes' in understanding. The less one knows and understands the MORE likely they WILL BE misled by much that is capable of leading them the wrong way.

I think that Paul often spoke to others who were LESS influenced by the world and MUCH deeper Spiritually and therefore more capable of understanding him than many are today. Where some might see contradiction in Paul's writtings today, I believe that with LESS world in their understanding and MORE God, the seeming contradictions simply become a 'deeper understanding'.

MEC

 

[Georges]

May I point out that Paul was a man LED BY THE SPIRIT and what he understood was that ONCE one's heart if filled with God, there are MANY things that this person could DO without compromising their Spiritual faithfulness. That is NOT always the case for 'babes' in understanding. The less one knows and understands the MORE likely they WILL BE misled by much that is capable of leading them the wrong way.

I think that Paul often spoke to others who were LESS influenced by the world and MUCH deeper Spiritually and therefore more capable of understanding him than many are today. Where some might see contradiction in Paul's writtings today, I believe that with LESS world in their understanding and MORE God, the seeming contradictions simply become a 'deeper understanding'.

MEC

Deeper understanding.......I've heard it all now....didn't think it could get spun so superbly......genius.... :roll:

Forget what it says in black and white....People are so eager to hang on to Paul like he was the life bouy....he's not, he's the anchor....

How in the world anyone can spin the clear contradictions between Jesus, James in regard to Paul especially since Jesus condemns him in Revelation...the last book written.....is beyond me....

 

[TanNinety]

Romans 4:5 But people are declared righteous because of their faith, not because of their work. 6 King David spoke of this, describing the happiness of an undeserving sinner who is declared to be righteous:
7
"Oh, what joy for those whose disobedience is forgiven,
whose sins are put out of sight.
8
Yes, what joy for those
whose sin is no longer counted against them by the Lord."

Psalm 32:1Oh, what joy for those
whose rebellion is forgiven,
whose sin is put out of sight!
2 Yes, what joy for those
whose record the Lord has cleared of sin,
whose lives are lived in complete honesty!
3When I refused to confess my sin,
I was weak and miserable,
and I groaned all day long.
4 Day and night your hand of discipline was heavy on me.
My strength evaporated like water in the summer heat.
Interlude
5 Finally, I confessed all my sins to you
and stopped trying to hide them.
I said to myself, "I will confess my rebellion to the Lord."
And you forgave me! All my guilt is gone.

Paul quotes David and said “faith†was what forgiveness was based on ..but the Psalm of David says “repentance/confession of sin†is what brought forgiveness. One of Paul’s many blatant misrepresentations of OT scripture.

 

[TanNinety]

Examining Paul’s quoting of scripture

Romans 3:9 Well then, are we Jews better than others? No, not at all, for we have already shown that all people, whether Jews or Gentiles, are under the power of sin. 10 As the Scriptures say,"No one is good-not even one.11 No one has real understanding;no one is seeking God.12 All have turned away from God;all have gone wrong.No one does good,not even one."13 "Their talk is foul, like the stench from an open grave.Their speech is filled with lies.""The poison of a deadly snake drips from their lips."
14 "Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."15 "They are quick to commit murder.16 Wherever they go, destruction and misery follow them.17 They do not know what true peace is."18 "They have no fear of God to restrain them."

Paul uses the above to show that ALL of humanity is against God.
Lets dissect it and see what scripture actually says.
--------------------
Romans 3:10 As the Scriptures say,"No one is good-not even one.11 No one has real understanding;no one is seeking God.12 All have turned away from God;all have gone wrong.No one does good,not even one."

Yeah right. If you actually read the Psalm from which Paul plucked these verses:

Psalm 53:1 The fool hath said in his heart, [There is] no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, [there is] none that doeth good.2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, [and] seek God.3 They are all gone aside, they are [all] together become filthy: [there is] none that doeth good, no, not one. 4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people [as] they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.

Yeah it is talking about the fool who thinks there is no God and the workers of iniquity with no knowledge. But conveniently Paul applies this verse to everybody regardless if they have their heart set on God or not.
-------------------------
Romans 3:13"Their talk is foul, like the stench from an open grave. Their speech is filled with lies." "The poison of a deadly snake drips from their lips."

Psalm 5:8 Lead me, O LORD, in thy righteousness because of mine enemies; make thy way straight before my face. 9 For [there is] no faithfulness in their mouth; their inward part [is] very wickedness; their throat [is] an open sepulchre; they flatter with their tongue.
Psalm 140:1 O Lord, rescue me from evil people.Preserve me from those who are violent,2 those who plot evil in their heartsand stir up trouble all day long.3 Their tongues sting like a snake;the poison of a viper drips from their lips.

Yeah, it is not ALL people that David was talking about but the evil people and his enemies.
-------------------------
Romans 3:14 "Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."

Psalm 10:4 The wicked, through the pride of his countenance will not seek [after God]: God [is] not in all his thoughts….
7 His mouth is full of cursing and deceit and fraud: under his tongue [is] mischief and vanity.

What a surprise it’s the wicked who have their mouths full of cursing.
-------------------------
Romans 3:15"They are quick to commit murder.16 Wherever they go, destruction and misery follow them.17 They do not know what true peace is."

Read chapter Isa 59 (verses 7-8) to understand this.
-------------------------
Romans 3: 18 "They have no fear of God to restrain them."

Psalm 36:1 Sin whispers to the wicked, deep within their hearts.
They have no fear of God to restrain them.

No surprise here that the wicked are the ones with no fear of God.
-------------------------
But great Paul has once again plucked verses way out of context and made a paragraph out of it. Would any of us eat a chocolate chip cookie if Paul replaced the Hershey kisses with cow dung? ..Would you say, well its just bits and pieces that don’t add up the rest is still a cookie? Yeah, what's going on here?

 

[Atonement]

TanNinety

Yeah it is talking about the fool who thinks there is no God and the workers of iniquity with no knowledge. But conveniently Paul applies this verse to everybody regardless if they have their heart set on God or not

Can you prove that with Scripture?

 

[Imagican]

All I can offer is that those that wish to refute the words of Paul obviously wish to remain in the same bonds of the Israelites forever. Paul speaks through a maturity ONLY possible through The Spirit. He offers us a glimpse of what it IS to be 'mature' in Christ. Not bound by silly man made understanding or rules. Free to love and BE loved in a way that goes beyond the 'fleshly' nature of mankind.

That there are those that are blind to this understanding is simply 'proof' that even those that 'truly' seek the 'truth' are often UNABLE to let go of the 'flesh' and live through The Spirit.

I condemn NO ONE with these words. I simply offer that Paul was quite CLEARLY a 'special person' in the eyes of God. Chosen from among those that were actually PERSECUTING those that had accepted Christ's gift. There was something DIFFERENT about Him that God KNEW would allow him to ACCEPT what God was willing to reveal.

George, you mock my offering as 'simple'. I take no offense. It IS simple. In the beginning of the NEW covenant there were NO Bibles. Those that followed the will of God through His Son were ONLY capable of understanding THROUGH The Spirit. I have found NONE, of this age, that even come close. No, Paul was NOT the ONLY ONE. There were many. It's just that Paul's experience was preserved through his writtings.

He explains in many words to many different people what it means to 'grow up', in Christ. You find this to contradict the words of Christ. The words of Christ were given to those that were NOT EVEN BORN yet. Paul accepted them readily after His introduction and RAN with them, to the point that His understanding went well beyond what anyone that Christ actually SPOKE to were capable of understanding.

No one is 'born again' with ALL the understanding that they will EVER have, (unless they die immediately after receiving Christ into their hearts). We grow George. EVERYDAY IF we are willing to. And the MORE we grow, the MORE we are able to understand.

No, far from what you want to see, Paul's understanding was NOT separate from Christ, just much more deeply embedded, accepted and understood by him.

MEC

 

[jgredline]

All I can offer is that those that wish to refute the words of Paul obviously wish to remain in the same bonds of the Israelites forever. Paul speaks through a maturity ONLY possible through The Spirit. He offers us a glimpse of what it IS to be 'mature' in Christ. Not bound by silly man made understanding or rules. Free to love and BE loved in a way that goes beyond the 'fleshly' nature of mankind.

That there are those that are blind to this understanding is simply 'proof' that even those that 'truly' seek the 'truth' are often UNABLE to let go of the 'flesh' and live through The Spirit.

I condemn NO ONE with these words. I simply offer that Paul was quite CLEARLY a 'special person' in the eyes of God. Chosen from among those that were actually PERSECUTING those that had accepted Christ's gift. There was something DIFFERENT about Him that God KNEW would allow him to ACCEPT what God was willing to reveal.

George, you mock my offering as 'simple'. I take no offense. It IS simple. In the beginning of the NEW covenant there were NO Bibles. Those that followed the will of God through His Son were ONLY capable of understanding THROUGH The Spirit. I have found NONE, of this age, that even come close. No, Paul was NOT the ONLY ONE. There were many. It's just that Paul's experience was preserved through his writtings.

He explains in many words to many different people what it means to 'grow up', in Christ. You find this to contradict the words of Christ. The words of Christ were given to those that were NOT EVEN BORN yet. Paul accepted them readily after His introduction and RAN with them, to the point that His understanding went well beyond what anyone that Christ actually SPOKE to were capable of understanding.

No one is 'born again' with ALL the understanding that they will EVER have, (unless they die immediately after receiving Christ into their hearts). We grow George. EVERYDAY IF we are willing to. And the MORE we grow, the MORE we are able to understand.

No, far from what you want to see, Paul's understanding was NOT separate from Christ, just much more deeply embedded, accepted and understood by him.

MEC

Mec
The only thing I can add to this is !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[TanNinety]

Can you prove that with Scripture?

Romans 3:10 Paul
Psalm 53 David
--------------------------------------------------

All I can offer is that those that wish to refute the words of Paul obviously wish to remain in the same bonds of the Israelites forever.

May be you could instead find error in what I have shown from Paul’s Romans 3 and the Psalms that I have posted? Would you not agree that Paul quoted old testament scripture out of context as I have shown in my both previous posts?

Free to love and BE loved in a way that goes beyond the 'fleshly' nature of mankind.

Love?

1 Corinthians 5: 5 Then you must cast this man out of the church and into Satan's hands, so that his sinful nature will be destroyed and he himself will be saved when the Lord returns.

How can the church cast someone into Satan’s hands? Wouldn’t casting someone into Satan’s hands make them sin more and more for the rest of their lives?
What Paul actually meant by that you might ask?
What has been made ear candy as “his sinful nature be destroyed†is nothing but death. Paul is asking for that person to be put to death so that they wont commit that sin anymore. He is asking the church to kill that person so though his sinful nature is destroyed he himself will be saved when the Lord returns. What else is “casting the man into Satan’s hands†mean. You think it means leaving it upto Satan to clean up the sinful nature of a person?

1 Timothy 1:20 Hymenaeus and Alexander are two examples of this. I(Paul) turned them over to Satan so they would learn not to blaspheme God.

I say Paul killed Hymenaeus and Alexander. What else does he mean he “turned them over to Satanâ€Â. Who the heck is he to turn someone over to Satan? How can someone achieve this feat of “turning someone over to Satanâ€Â?

If there is an error in my thinking, explain what Paul means “turning someone over to Satan or casting someone into Satan’s hands†mean? Explain how according to 1 corinthians 5:5 how casting someone into Satan’s hands destroys their sinful natur? Is that the kind of LOVE beyond “fleshly†nature of mankind that Paul achieved and you aspire for?