Bible Study What's Your Position.

[Jim Parker]

There are two theological positions or convictions on the "Called Out Ones" normally called "True Christians". The following Scripture is case in point....

John 17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
17:7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

1. My position is that Abba Father, hand picked the Elect Bride for His Son before even man was created with NO foreknowledge of who would believe in His Son.

2. Others have the position that Abba Father saw into the future with His power of foreknowledge and chose the Elect Bride for His Son.

Which position do you folk hold to. No foreknowledge? Or foreknowledge?

If God does not foreknow who would believe, what do you do with the following verses?
Rom 8:29
For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 11:2
God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying,

 

[reba]

Not necessarily directed to the last poster...
Keep this emotional topic in DISCUSSION it is drifting into the forum debate of yes no yes no...
Do not reply to this post in this thread

 

[Cygnus]

hello Cygnus, dirtfarmer here

Why do you suppose that John 6:65 states that we have "to be granted" by the father? Could it be because God is Holy and cannot look upon sin without judging it? Just as the wedding guest that had not dressed properly was refused entrance into the wedding, so it would be if God had not established parameters for entrance into Christ.

Could be. I also think it could be because we're dead in our sins and trespasses....and can't come to Christ unless God quickens us.

 

[Cygnus]

You are hearkening back to a different thread. You surely don't think that any position other than strict Calvinistic predestination equates to "happenstance" salvation? If God preordained that all who turned to Christ would be saved, and then left it to the free will of each individual whether to turn to Christ, this is scarcely "happenstance" salvation regardless of whether God "foreknew" (whatever that may mean in this context) who those individuals would be or did not (as Open Theology suggests). Strict Calvinism is the tidiest package intellectually, albeit at the expense of a picture of God and human existence that many people (including me) find difficult to believe if not downright repulsive.

The strict freewillers fall deeply into happenstance salvation.
We could have two scenarios. Each scenario contains the same person. One day the person decided to turn left while the other turned right and walked down the bock. The person who turned right ran into a street preacher and got saved. The person who turned left didn't hear the preacher and never got saved. They both died that evening.

The next question is, why did the guy who turned right get saved ? What did he base his decision towards Christ on? Unless God is in control 100% ...happenstance is part of your theology.

 

[Douglas Summers]

If God does not foreknow who would believe, what do you do with the following verses?
Rom 8:29
For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 11:2
God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying,

Here are some things to think about Jim. It has never pleased God to give us the motive in the divine mind that determines God's elective act. We know that God's act is upon righteous grounds, but it has not pleased Him to disclose His motives in "election". Election, like "predestination" is declared to be according to the "foreknowledge" of God. (1 Pet. 1:2). But Scripture nowhere says what it is in the divine foreknowledge which determines the divine choice.

But it is certain that election is not by any divine foreknowledge of any merit in the chosen one, For "election" is expressly declared to be of "grace" (Rom. 9:11; 11:5-6).

Neither is it Biblical to say that election is by the divine foreknowledge of the obedience of faith in the chosen, for "election" is "unto obedience of and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 1:2), and Paul's labors were to the end that the elect might obtain salvation (2 Tim. 2:10).
Therefore, the relation to God's foreknowledge to His electing "grace" is an unrevealed relation.

God is not a respecter of persons (Acts 10:34) (Rom. 2:11). God is sovereign.
Most of the thinking that God's election is foreknowledge of the merit of the chosen is driven by the belief that a man must do good works to achieve salvation, and that God could see the chosen's good works beforehand. We are saved by Faith in God's grace alone. (Eph. 2:8-9) (Luke 7:50)

 

[dirtfarmer]

Here are some things to think about Jim. It has never pleased God to give us the motive in the divine mind that determines God's elective act. We know that God's act is upon righteous grounds, but it has not pleased Him to disclose His motives in "election". Election, like "predestination" is declared to be according to the "foreknowledge" of God. (1 Pet. 1:2). But Scripture nowhere says what it is in the divine foreknowledge which determines the divine choice.

But it is certain that election is not by any divine foreknowledge of any merit in the chosen one, For "election" is expressly declared to be of "grace" (Rom. 9:11; 11:5-6).

Neither is it Biblical to say that election is by the divine foreknowledge of the obedience of faith in the chosen, for "election" is "unto obedience of and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 1:2), and Paul's labors were to the end that the elect might obtain salvation (2 Tim. 2:10).
Therefore, the relation to God's foreknowledge to His electing "grace" is an unrevealed relation.

God is not a respecter of persons (Acts 10:34) (Rom. 2:11). God is sovereign.
Most of the thinking that God's election is foreknowledge of the merit of the chosen is driven by the belief that a man must do good works to achieve salvation, and that God could see the chosen's good works beforehand. We are saved by Faith in God's grace alone. (Eph. 2:8-9) (Luke 7:50)

hello Douglas Summers, dirtfarmer here

I understand election not to be for salvation but to be conformed to Christ's image. Salvation has always been by grace through faith. Even in Ephesians 2:10 it stated that we are to walk in the works created in Christ Jesus. We do not do the works, it is Christ in us, we can't do them, only walk in them.

 

[Jim Parker]

Scripture nowhere says what it is in the divine foreknowledge which determines the divine choice.

I agree.
Foreknowledge is not equal to foreordination.

But it is certain that election is not by any divine foreknowledge of any merit in the chosen one, For "election" is expressly declared to be of "grace" (Rom. 9:11; 11:5-6).

Again, I agree.
We have no merit before God.
Luke 17:10 “So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you are commanded, say, ‘We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do.' ”

Most of the thinking that God's election is foreknowledge of the merit of the chosen is driven by the belief that a man must do good works to achieve salvation, and that God could see the chosen's good works beforehand. We are saved by Faith in God's grace alone.

I notice that people who quote Eph 2:8 & 9 consistently cut off the rest of Paul's statement which is found in the next verse;
"For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."
"Walk in them" means that the doing of good works should be our normal way of life.
Doing those good works does not "earn" us eternal life.
HOWEVER, there are two modes of living: (1) living to gratify the lusts of the flesh which leads to death and (2) living to obey the leading of the Holy Spirit which leads to life. (not "earns" life but "leads to" life.)
Luk 6:46 But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,' and not do the things which I say?

When Paul said that we "wrestle not with flesh and blood...", he was assuming that we were, in fact, actively wrestling with those powers, principalities, etc. and not give in to the temptations of the devil.
Rom 12:21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Salvation is by grace alone. Even our faith is a gift.
But having been given the gift of faith, we are required to "use it or loose it."

and that's more or less how I see it

iakov the fool

 

[Douglas Summers]

hello Douglas Summers, dirtfarmer here

I understand election not to be for salvation but to be conformed to Christ's image. Salvation has always been by grace through faith. Even in Ephesians 2:10 it stated that we are to walk in the works created in Christ Jesus. We do not do the works, it is Christ in us, we can't do them, only walk in them.

Hi dirtfarmer, Yes. Christ in us. It is the sovereign will of the Holy Spirit who works in us as He wills. It is important to understand that we are a vessel for the Spirit to manifest Himself through us. This comes with prayer and asking to be filled with the Spirit before any good works, even while we walk in the new man. It is not true that we use the Spirit, but that The Spirit manifest itself through us. Many a zealous Christians mistake zeal for being filled with the Spirit. A close fellowship with the Father will define the difference. The Spirit gives diverse gifts to men, and the father gives these men to the Church Did you think I was posting something different?

 

[1Genesis]

In my view this position would preclude the Omniscience of Father.
My position is that Abba Father, hand picked the Elect Bride for His Son before even man was created with NO foreknowledge of who would believe in His Son.

 

[Douglas Summers]

In my view this position would preclude the Omniscience of Father.
My position is that Abba Father, hand picked the Elect Bride for His Son before even man was created with NO foreknowledge of who would believe in His Son.

While I do not understand it fully, I believe you are right, and I base it on the Scripture (Eph. 1:3-5)

 

[Chopper]

And where do you fit into the scheme of things?
Where do I fit in?

Hi Allen. I'm a four point Calvinist. I believe that Abba Father chose the Elect Bride for His Son before they were born. I do not believe that He purposely chose all others to be cursed to hell. All those who were not of the "called out ones", can respond to the "general call of the Gospel" exercising their own free will and be born from above.

The Elect Bride of Yahshua (Christ) is a part of the Church, the other part are those who come to Christ thru the General call.

 

[Cygnus]

Hi Allen. I'm a four point Calvinist. I believe that Abba Father chose the Elect Bride for His Son before they were born. I do not believe that He purposely chose all others to be cursed to hell. All those who were not of the "called out ones", can respond to the "general call of the Gospel" exercising their own free will and be born from above.

The Elect Bride of Yahshua (Christ) is a part of the Church, the other part are those who come to Christ thru the General call.

Hi Chopper, I have often thought about what you refer to as the "general call" but so far have not really been convinced.
I know if there is a general call God has to step in and enable and call a person. I might even go as far as saying God has to first regenerate the person considering they're already spiritually dead and in that state can't chose Christ. That's where I'm at right now fully knowing I can be wrong as I have moved around this position over the years.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Hi Allen. I'm a four point Calvinist. I believe that Abba Father chose the Elect Bride for His Son before they were born. I do not believe that He purposely chose all others to be cursed to hell. All those who were not of the "called out ones", can respond to the "general call of the Gospel" exercising their own free will and be born from above.

The Elect Bride of Yahshua (Christ) is a part of the Church, the other part are those who come to Christ thru the General call.

Hi Chopper,
I don't think things can be so cut and dry as this.
It seems that we can only interpret Scripture as we are able to and then decide what it is we want to believe.
Also this includes hearing the Word of God without ever reading it.
I don't see how you can think you were saved from day one, that you never had to choose God.
It seems the whole Gospel doesn't apply to you.
That makes you not sound human.
Please, I don't want to offend you, but I can only see your ego picking yourself out to believe this.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Hi Chopper,
I don't think things can be so cut and dry as this.
It seems that we can only interpret Scripture as we are able to and then decide what it is we want to believe.
Also this includes hearing the Word of God without ever reading it.
I don't see how you can think you were saved from day one, that you never had to choose God.
It seems the whole Gospel doesn't apply to you.
That makes you not sound human.
Please, I don't want to offend you, but I can only see your ego picking yourself out to believe this.

Hi Allen This is Douglas Summers. I believe as Chopper does. The Lord called me at the age of 16 in 1963. I answered His calling. But now that I'am saved by faith in His Grace....I can see in my life before His calling that He was in my life from the beginning. You would have to know my life of grief to understand. But God is sovereign. Study this Scripture text (Rom. 9:6-33) So He saith to Moses,I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy ff..............

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Hi Allen This is Douglas Summers. I believe as Chopper does. The Lord called me at the age of 16 in 1963. I answered His calling. But now that I'am saved by faith in His Grace....I can see in my life before His calling that He was in my life from the beginning. You would have to know my life of grief to understand. But God is sovereign. Study this Scripture text (Rom. 9:6-33) So He saith to Moses,I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy ff..............

I could say that of myself, since the age of two, yet I was 34 before I gave my heart to Jesus
I don't think he selected me special, as you and Chopper say
I think after I got saved, I could see what God did for me all through my early years to protect me for the day I would reach out to him
There's a difference

If you don't think you got saved on your own, then, well, maybe .....think about it

 

[th1b.taylor]

Hi Chopper, I have often thought about what you refer to as the "general call" but so far have not really been convinced.
I know if there is a general call God has to step in and enable and call a person. I might even go as far as saying God has to first regenerate the person considering they're already spiritually dead and in that state can't chose Christ. That's where I'm at right now fully knowing I can be wrong as I have moved around this position over the years.

Every one of us will, with a good deal of certainty, I say this because we have far to any sects in our church.

 

[Chopper]

After a good night of rest and prayer, I'll answer you fellows. You all deserve my honest reply. Shalom my friends.

 

[for_his_glory]

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Zechariah 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

In the OT and NT God did specifically call out certain prophets by name as he elected them before they were even formed in the womb. This does not make God a respecter of person, it just means they were called for Gods purpose as they were the Hebrew children of promise through the seed of Abraham being of that same covenant God made with Abraham in Genesis 12:1-3. We being formed in the womb as a Gentile and given the breath (spirit) of God for us to be a living soul can now through Christ Jesus be grafted into that seed of Abraham that we to can be a part of Gods covenant promises to that of a thousand generations.

 

[for_his_glory]

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Zechariah 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

In the OT and NT God did specifically call out certain prophets by name as he elected them before they were even formed in the womb. This does not make God a respecter of person, it just means they were called for Gods purpose as they were the Hebrew children of promise through the seed of Abraham being of that same covenant God made with Abraham in Genesis 12:1-3. We being formed in the womb as a Gentile and given the breath (spirit) of God for us to be a living soul can now through Christ Jesus be grafted into that seed of Abraham that we to can be a part of Gods covenant promises to that of a thousand generations.

 

[stovebolts]

There are two theological positions or convictions on the "Called Out Ones" normally called "True Christians". The following Scripture is case in point....

John 17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
17:7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

1. My position is that Abba Father, hand picked the Elect Bride for His Son before even man was created with NO foreknowledge of who would believe in His Son.

2. Others have the position that Abba Father saw into the future with His power of foreknowledge and chose the Elect Bride for His Son.

Which position do you folk hold to. No foreknowledge? Or foreknowledge?

I lean more toward number 2. I would add that we are called out for a purpose, and it has nothing to do with our salvation. We are saved for good works. We have a job to do.
I'll just throw this out there. I am not a Universalist, but my theology bends heavily in that direction. No, not everyone is let inside the walls of the new kingdom, but every knee does bow.

And now it's time for me to snaglepuss out of here before I start a riot lol.
God bless you all.