[__ Science __ ] When Does Electrocution Become Fatal?

[Edward]

You have a watt meter on your service entrance.
Half the amps on each of the two phases...equals twice the amps on a single side.
You save nothing.

That's right huh?! Learn something new every day I do, lol

 

[WIP]

By your numbers it looks ok but something else is coming into play here and I'm not sure what yet.

My 240v window shaker pulls half the amps of the 110v window shaker. Lower voltage higher amps.
It's always cheaper to run a 240v appliance over a 120v appliance. ..so who went wtong here, lol

Sounds like you're talking about power. That's an entirely different subject that has to do with overall power. Your electric company bills you on the power you use, not the amps alone.

The mathematical formula for power is P=IV and represents the relationship between power (Watts), Current (I), and voltage (V).

Here's an example to help explain it.

When a motor is wound to operate on 240vac vs 120vac and the power output is the same, the current demand required by the motor will be affected.

Let's assume a motor rated for 2hp.
2hp is approximately 1491 watts.

Using the formula...
1491w = I x 120vac
1491 / 120 = ~12.43A full-load current demand.

Now, let's rewire the motor for 240vac.
1491w = I x 240vac
1491 / 240 = ~6.21A full-load current demand.

For both motors, the power is the same and your electric company will bill you for the same power.

At a lower voltage, the motor will require higher current demand in order to produce the same power output. By designing motors to run on higher voltage, we can get much higher hp ratings without using windings with wires the size of your thumb. I don't remember for sure but I also believe there are advantages in the speed/torque curves as well.

Here's a practical example. I have a 12vdc electric trolling motor on the bow of my boat rated at 52 lbs. of thrust. About the largest 12v electric trolling motor that I am aware of is 55 lb thrust. The wire size on the motor is 8ga, which is quite heavy. To get to higher thrust ratings, you have to go into 24v and 36v motors. The reason is to allow for smaller wire sizes so you don't have to use wires the size of jumper cables. A 24v 52lb thrust motor could use power wires about half the size of the 12v motor because to obtain the same thrust with twice the voltage requires about half the current demand.

 

[Razeontherock]

The biggest problem with juice is usually getting held...or knocked off the ladder from muscle spasms. I've had both happen to me.
Feels bad every time.

Awww, who doesn't like being held? Lol

 

[Edward]

Sounds like you're talking about power. That's an entirely different subject that has to do with overall power. Your electric company bills you on the power you use, not the amps alone.

The mathematical formula for power is P=IV and represents the relationship between power (Watts), Current (I), and voltage (V).

Here's an example to help explain it.

When a motor is wound to operate on 240vac vs 120vac and the power output is the same, the current demand required by the motor will be affected.

Let's assume a motor rated for 2hp.
2hp is approximately 1491 watts.

Using the formula...
1491w = I x 120vac
1491 / 120 = ~12.43A full-load current demand.

Now, let's rewire the motor for 240vac.
1491w = I x 240vac
1491 / 240 = ~6.21A full-load current demand.

For both motors, the power is the same and your electric company will bill you for the same power.

At a lower voltage, the motor will require higher current demand in order to produce the same power output. By designing motors to run on higher voltage, we can get much higher hp ratings without using windings with wires the size of your thumb. I don't remember for sure but I also believe there are advantages in the speed/torque curves as well.

Here's a practical example. I have a 12vdc electric trolling motor on the bow of my boat rated at 52 lbs. of thrust. About the largest 12v electric trolling motor that I am aware of is 55 lb thrust. The wire size on the motor is 8ga, which is quite heavy. To get to higher thrust ratings, you have to go into 24v and 36v motors. The reason is to allow for smaller wire sizes so you don't have to use wires the size of jumper cables. A 24v 52lb thrust motor could use power wires about half the size of the 12v motor because to obtain the same thrust with twice the voltage requires about half the current demand.

That's right huh?! I forget about watts because I never have to figure Watts in any of my work. Ohms law takes me everywhere lol.

Electricity goes a lot deeper than most people are taught. Maybe I should've been a scientist lol.

The best electrical class I've ever been to was an older guy who talked over my head regularly lol but made a goid point about, electricity is weird and doesn't always follow established rules of conduct...so be careful. The higher the voltage present, the more care should be taken around it.

So I stopped standing under lightning bolts. ;)

 

[JohnDB]

Awww, who doesn't like being held? Lol

It's really scary... your muscles won't move and your heart races to get in sync with 60 hz instead of 60 bpm.
My legs would still move so I started lowering myself down the ladder...which lifted the wire out of my hands and freed me.

The time I got knocked was in the Pastor's office...I was standing on the step of the ladder that says "Do not stand or sit" and got hit. The Pastor and Associate was having a meeting below me and I let out an explative describing fecal material. They immediately left unsure as to whether they needed an umbrella or if I was just cussing.
Our maintenance cheif comes in and begins laughing at me for cussing in front of the Pastoral staff. Everyone still laughs about it today.
But they know that I am not putting on a mask when I come to church and I try to reign in my language. (Usually successfully)

 

[Razeontherock]

The best electrical class I've ever been to was an older guy who talked over my head regularly lol but made a goid point about, electricity is weird and doesn't always follow established rules of conduct...so be careful. The higher the voltage present, the more care should be taken around it.

My oldest Son is about to start as a welding trainee ...

 

[Razeontherock]

It's really scary... your muscles won't move and your heart races to get in sync with 60 hz instead of 60 bpm.

So what you're saying is it's not really the best defibrillator? I can just see the Dr's visit now: "pulse rate of 60 beats a second, have you been playing with the 220 breaker box in the rain again?"

Yeah, that "getting held" stuff is how people smoke, while convulsing uncontrollably, until not much is left. Not quite like the wicked witch melting in the Wizard of Oz; it'll ultimately leave no puddle behind.

It has everything to do with why the world decided to ignore Tesla and listen to Einstein.

 

[Edward]

So what you're saying is it's not really the best defibrillator? I can just see the Dr's visit now: "pulse rate of 60 beats a second, have you been playing with the 220 breaker box in the rain again?"

Yeah, that "getting held" stuff is how people smoke, while convulsing uncontrollably, until not much is left. Not quite like the wicked witch melting in the Wizard of Oz; it'll ultimately leave no puddle behind.

It has everything to do with why the world decided to ignore Tesla and listen to Einstein.

Huh. Someone else knows Einstein was a schill lol

I got grabbed and held by 120v one time. I was bypassing a bad ssu switch (live) and I'd done it before live with no problems but the customer was talking to me and distracted me so my screwdriver slipped and I was holding the metal cover real good...and it got me. He pulled me off of it and to my surprise, I didn't need any more coffee that morning!

 

[JohnDB]

So what you're saying is it's not really the best defibrillator? I can just see the Dr's visit now: "pulse rate of 60 beats a second, have you been playing with the 220 breaker box in the rain again?"

Yeah, that "getting held" stuff is how people smoke, while convulsing uncontrollably, until not much is left. Not quite like the wicked witch melting in the Wizard of Oz; it'll ultimately leave no puddle behind.

It has everything to do with why the world decided to ignore Tesla and listen to Einstein.

Most of the time, if someone gets shocked hard enough to stop their heart a defibulator won't be able to get it to start again. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't try it...but just don't have high hopes of it working.
Meaning that if you get that seriously shocked it's "game over" and that the "second chance" every one else gets isn't in your future.

So we usually refuse to work on hot stuff. We have voltage detectors and meters that we use a lot. We are construction crews... everyone knows that stuff is going to get turned off. There's no reason to risk your life so someone can surf Facebook in that office. It's not going to be the end of the world if you turn off the lights....there are windows that can let light come in. Deconstruction must happen so you can put it together correctly.

Chances are that you aren't in a hospital so no one is going to die if you kill a circuit. And if you are in a hospital...we have very very rigorous procedures and equipment to work hot stuff...wear and use them all. (You are there to help the doctors and nurses and not become one of those they help... AKA be a missionary and not the mission field)

 

[JohnDB]

Ummm. I think that you mean Edison and not Einstein.... Einstein didn't do much for electricity. Edison was a Wall Street darling.

It has everything to do with why the world decided to ignore Tesla and listen to Einstein.

 

[Edward]

Most of the time, if someone gets shocked hard enough to stop their heart a defibulator won't be able to get it to start again. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't try it...but just don't have high hopes of it working.
Meaning that if you get that seriously shocked it's "game over" and that the "second chance" every one else gets isn't in your future.

So we usually refuse to work on hot stuff. We have voltage detectors and meters that we use a lot. We are construction crews... everyone knows that stuff is going to get turned off. There's no reason to risk your life so someone can surf Facebook in that office. It's not going to be the end of the world if you turn off the lights....there are windows that can let light come in. Deconstruction must happen so you can put it together correctly.

Chances are that you aren't in a hospital so no one is going to die if you kill a circuit. And if you are in a hospital...we have very very rigorous procedures and equipment to work hot stuff...wear and use them all. (You are there to help the doctors and nurses and not become one of those they help... AKA be a missionary and not the mission field)

You can't even trust that the breaker is marked right, ask me how I know...
I always ask for a lockout or use mine in a commercial bldg. Learned that the hard way toi, lol

 

[JohnDB]

You can't even trust that the breaker is marked right, ask me how I know...
I always ask for a lockout or use mine in a commercial bldg. Learned that the hard way toi, lol

I ain't beyond determinating a breaker if I don't have a lockout kit. It's simple and I am an electrician that needs to know how to do such things.
Now for the "Tin Knockers"...
There are usually several energy sources for their stuff. One breaker is never going to be enough. Ask an electrician to help turn stuff off. I've met plenty that didn't and got hit and hurt and burned up/dropped expensive equipment because of it. I laugh at those guys regularly and then get them canned for getting into stuff they had no clue what they were working with. If it isn't the disconnect right beside their stuff.

 

[Razeontherock]

Ummm. I think that you mean Edison and not Einstein.... Einstein didn't do much for electricity. Edison was a Wall Street darling.

Nope, they were contemporaries. Tesla would've had us go straight to wireless, which made the public uneasy, fearing getting fried at every turn. So Einstein captured the public eye, and Tesla went disregarded. Now we're recognizing his genius, and how much Einstein merely built on other's work, and was actually wrong about some things

 

[JohnDB]

Nope, they were contemporaries. Tesla would've had us go straight to wireless, which made the public uneasy, fearing getting fried at every turn. So Einstein captured the public eye, and Tesla went disregarded. Now we're recognizing his genius, and how much Einstein merely built on other's work, and was actually wrong about some things

Most scientist build on other's work.
Einstein was good at it...and we "kidnapped" him so the Germans couldn't use him.

But safe, wireless electricity is a myth. Ask any welder about UV light and they can usually show you their burns.

Electricity belongs in wires and glass tubes. Anywhere else and something that you don't want is going to happen.

That ultra high frequency and voltage stuff is really scary stuff to work with. Even if you are doing everything right it can still go wrong.

 

[Razeontherock]

Yup, there were reasons not to go with Tesla, but we over reacted. He made some great contributions, which others mostly took credit for. Meanwhile we put Einstein on a shelf.

Electricity in wires and glass tubes is still known for behaving unpredictably at times, isn't it?

My Son becoming a welder has me uneasy, lots to go wrong there ...

 

[jasonc]

Most scientist build on other's work.
Einstein was good at it...and we "kidnapped" him so the Germans couldn't use him.

But safe, wireless electricity is a myth. Ask any welder about UV light and they can usually show you their burns.

Electricity belongs in wires and glass tubes. Anywhere else and something that you don't want is going to happen.

That ultra high frequency and voltage stuff is really scary stuff to work with. Even if you are doing everything right it can still go wrong.

Microwaves, high power energy creates by electromagnets.also can power things,burn and used as a signal.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwave_transmission

 

[Edward]

I ain't beyond determinating a breaker if I don't have a lockout kit. It's simple and I am an electrician that needs to know how to do such things.
Now for the "Tin Knockers"...
There are usually several energy sources for their stuff. One breaker is never going to be enough. Ask an electrician to help turn stuff off. I've met plenty that didn't and got hit and hurt and burned up/dropped expensive equipment because of it. I laugh at those guys regularly and then get them canned for getting into stuff they had no clue what they were working with. If it isn't the disconnect right beside their stuff.

I don't have that little beeper thing for determining breakers. While not always, (lol), but I have been known to just touch one leg to ground at the unit, and it trips the right breaker immediately lol. Saves time. (Not if their watching lol!)

The highest voltage I ever see (so far) is 460v roof top units (RTU's). On those I tie onto common and test that unit with one hand behind my back. Never leaning onto it with my off hand. No rings allowed either cuz hi voltage can arc to it.

 

[Edward]

I ain't beyond determinating a breaker if I don't have a lockout kit. It's simple and I am an electrician that needs to know how to do such things.
Now for the "Tin Knockers"...
There are usually several energy sources for their stuff. One breaker is never going to be enough. Ask an electrician to help turn stuff off. I've met plenty that didn't and got hit and hurt and burned up/dropped expensive equipment because of it. I laugh at those guys regularly and then get them canned for getting into stuff they had no clue what they were working with. If it isn't the disconnect right Good their stuff.

Brother, you're an electrician...and a chef...and a son of God...is there anything you don't do?!

 

[Edward]

Yup, there were reasons not to go with Tesla, but we over reacted. He made some great contributions, which others mostly took credit for. Meanwhile we put Einstein on a shelf.

Electricity in wires and glass tubes is still known for behaving unpredictably at times, isn't it?

My Son becoming a welder has me uneasy, lots to go wrong there ...

From what I understand, the test is hard to get certified. I've a buddy in Colorado that is essentially a welder, had the training, took the test...3 times, If I remember right, and never did pass it! So warn your son that the practical test has to be perfect.

How old is your son? Any work ethic yet? My son's didn't get a work ethic until about 30 yrs old.

 

[Edward]

Nope, they were contemporaries. Tesla would've had us go straight to wireless, which made the public uneasy, fearing getting fried at every turn. So Einstein captured the public eye, and Tesla went disregarded. Now we're recognizing his genius, and how much Einstein merely built on other's work, and was actually wrong about some things

How much do you know about Wi-Fi? And cell phone signals from phones & towers? The entire globe is blanketed in more radio frequencies than ever before. It's not good for us.

People who work in that field have the instruments to detect field strengths. They're doing videos on YouTube I seen. I forget what max safe exposure is, but it isn't very high. We're not even supposed to be carrying cell phones in our pocket or next to our body...

Too much risk. Very interesting stuff. Many times I pull the plug on my Wi-Fi at night and started charging my phones downstairs, instead of bedroom on the nightstand, next to my head!