When God forgets.

[Kidron]

-
What do YOU do, believer.... when you face a very important doctrine, like Salvation <> Redemption <> Justification by Faith.... and you have your theological point of view, and your church and your Pastor and your family and friends believe just like you, and probably taught you what you believe.... and then one day you see something in the New Testament that is a complete contradiction to everything you believed about a doctrine, and its a complete contradiction to everything your particular church or denomination believes and teaches?
What do YOU do then?
What.....do ......YOU..........do then?
Suddenly, God has given you Light and you now know what you know what you know, and they dont know it, not any of them.... and they are not going to want to know it, and they are not going to listen because they are still as mentally locked into the wrong understanding and teaching as you are now become as Unlocked in your revelation by the Light of Revelation.
So, what will YOU do then?
This happens a lot to true believers who have the bible as their final authority and seek God for His help so that they can "rightly divide the word"..
-
Now, let me show you 3 New Testament scriptures that will totally seem to contradict,
(2-1) IF you are not careful....... and careful means "study to show thyself approved unto GOD", as you are told to Study the Word and not to just read it.

-------------------------------------------------

Look at this 1st verse
This is doctrinal for salvation for millions who believe that Jesus saves them, then the next day they become unsaved or sinful because they sin, and have to get this sin back under the blood by confession.....And then, for the rest of their lives, they have to be really careful to keep confessing to keep the blood atonement active to keep being saved
That is their doctrine of "Salvation" and its their denomination's also.

Here it is....
1st John 1:9....."if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness".

So, this verse is quoted by millions and used by many denominations to prove you are saved... then you sin, then you confess and you are forgiven again, all over again, and if you dont keep this all your life, you'll end up going to hell like a bullet and burning like a torch after you die.

But THEN...... you have these verses, in the New Testament.

Hebrews 8:12 : For I (God) will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will i remember no more. (believers).
There you have Eternal God not remembering your sins, for as long as HE Lives.
Next:
Romans 4:8 : Blessed is the man (believer) whose SIN the Lord will never count against him.
Notice the tense of "sin".....that tense is not singular......it means ALL of them, exactly the same as SINS, that you find in Romans 4:8

Now, believer, who IS this person whose sins are no longer remembered, and whose sins are no longer counted against them.
= ALL CHRISTIANS.
And NOTICE.......The verse didnt say you would not sin....It said that your sinning is not held against you, and that ALL YOUR SINS God will remember NO MORE.
Thats YOU., if you are a Christian.
And it means that all Judgement for your lifetime of sin, is removed, so that you are not JUDGED after you die.
The Cross took care of this for you.

Now,.....very important..... go back to 1st John 1:9, and ask yourself if John is going to be telling >Christians< to confess THEIR sins, when Paul in Romans and Hebrews just told you that your sins are forgotten by God and never held against you again for eternity.
Ask yourself.....why would John be telling Christians to confess what GOD said he FORGOT and does not charge you with forever????
See it?
Once you SEE this, then you've seen the LIGHT, and once you see this Light you can be FREE and are FREED.

 

[Chopper]

O my Brother. You are sadly mistaken. I will not accuse you of teaching false doctrine, until I have at least three witnesses. What you don't understand is that the Apostle Paul, in
Hebrews 8:12 & [URL='http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Rom%204.8']Romans 4:8, is referring to the sins that a Believer confesses as in 1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Now, You are advocating that at the point of Salvation, God forgives the original sin in Adam....
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Then, all of our past sins are forgive, and as you say, He remembers them no more.

Because 1 John 1:9 was written to born again children of God, it states....1John 1:4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Romans 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Now, there are, what is called "Holiness Pentecostal" Churches that believe in sinless perfection. The problem with this doctrine is, if someone of this belief sins, he/she must be born again all over again. I know this because I was a part of a "holiness" Church back in the early 90s for two years, learning their doctrines from a Brother Reynolds in Portland, Maine.

The "holiness" Brethren teach that the Apostle Paul was not saved in Romans 7, but saved in Romans 8. That simply is not true because of several words in the above Scripture that I put in bold print. An unsaved Paul did not want to do good, as in v.21. He did evil against the Church of Christ. And in v.22 an unsaved Paul did not "delight" in the Law, he obeyed the Law because as a Jew, he had to obey out of fear, not delight.

In v.23 Paul sees two forces at work in his life. One is New Birth, and the other is the law of sin which is activated by the old nature. Yes, we have two natures. The nature of the sinful flesh, and the Nature of the Christ, imputed by the Holy Spirit at Salvation. In order to activate the forgiveness of our future sins which are activated by the flesh nature in all of us, repentance and forgiveness must be sought for each future sin. Otherwise, we continue on in our Christian walk with unconfessed sin, and Jethro Bodine, my Pal, will tell you what unconfessed sin will do for you at the great White Throne of Christ Jesus.

Your theory of, and you're still into sinless perfection, is what someone has taught you, from what I know of the Holy Spirit of the Christ, He doesn't lead someone to believe in sinless perfection because it is anti-Scripture. You have isolated the Christian to a person who does not sin after Salvation, therefore the cross work of Jesus, and the forgiveness of sins cover past, present, and future sins, without the need for repentance and forgiveness sought.

Your position is against the Christ that saved you...1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. SO, God's Word identifies you as deceived, and by your position, you are making our "full of Truth" Jesus a liar. Is there no fear of the Lord in you?

Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

.

[/URL]

 

[for_his_glory]

O my Brother. You are sadly mistaken. I will not accuse you of teaching false doctrine, until I have at least three witnesses. What you don't understand is that the Apostle Paul, in
Hebrews 8:12 & Romans 4:8, is referring to the sins that a Believer confesses as in 1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Now, You are advocating that at the point of Salvation, God forgives the original sin in Adam....
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Then, all of our past sins are forgive, and as you say, He remembers them no more.

Because 1 John 1:9 was written to born again children of God, it states....1John 1:4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Romans 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Now, there are, what is called "Holiness Pentecostal" Churches that believe in sinless perfection. The problem with this doctrine is, if someone of this belief sins, he/she must be born again all over again. I know this because I was a part of a "holiness" Church back in the early 90s for two years, learning their doctrines from a Brother Reynolds in Portland, Maine.

The "holiness" Brethren teach that the Apostle Paul was not saved in Romans 7, but saved in Romans 8. That simply is not true because of several words in the above Scripture that I put in bold print. An unsaved Paul did not want to do good, as in v.21. He did evil against the Church of Christ. And in v.22 an unsaved Paul did not "delight" in the Law, he obeyed the Law because as a Jew, he had to obey out of fear, not delight.

In v.23 Paul sees two forces at work in his life. One is New Birth, and the other is the law of sin which is activated by the old nature. Yes, we have two natures. The nature of the sinful flesh, and the Nature of the Christ, imputed by the Holy Spirit at Salvation. In order to activate the forgiveness of our future sins which are activated by the flesh nature in all of us, repentance and forgiveness must be sought for each future sin. Otherwise, we continue on in our Christian walk with unconfessed sin, and Jethro Bodine, my Pal, will tell you what unconfessed sin will do for you at the great White Throne of Christ Jesus.

Your theory of, and you're still into sinless perfection, is what someone has taught you, from what I know of the Holy Spirit of the Christ, He doesn't lead someone to believe in sinless perfection because it is anti-Scripture. You have isolated the Christian to a person who does not sin after Salvation, therefore the cross work of Jesus, and the forgiveness of sins cover past, present, and future sins, without the need for repentance and forgiveness sought.

Your position is against the Christ that saved you...1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. SO, God's Word identifies you as deceived, and by your position, you are making our "full of Truth" Jesus a liar. Is there no fear of the Lord in you?

Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

.

My dear brother Chopper I so agree with you . Look up "hyper grace" and that is all I can say as you will then understand what is being brought forth as a false gospel.

 

[smaller]

-
What do YOU do, believer.... when you face a very important doctrine, like Salvation <> Redemption <> Justification by Faith.... and you have your theological point of view, and your church and your Pastor and your family and friends believe just like you, and probably taught you what you believe.... and then one day you see something in the New Testament that is a complete contradiction to everything you believed about a doctrine, and its a complete contradiction to everything your particular church or denomination believes and teaches?
What do YOU do then?
What.....do ......YOU..........do then?
Suddenly, God has given you Light and you now know what you know what you know, and they dont know it, not any of them.... and they are not going to want to know it, and they are not going to listen because they are still as mentally locked into the wrong understanding and teaching as you are now become as Unlocked in your revelation by the Light of Revelation.
So, what will YOU do then?
This happens a lot to true believers who have the bible as their final authority and seek God for His help so that they can "rightly divide the word"..
-
Now, let me show you 3 New Testament scriptures that will totally seem to contradict,
(2-1) IF you are not careful....... and careful means "study to show thyself approved unto GOD", as you are told to Study the Word and not to just read it.

-------------------------------------------------

Look at this 1st verse
This is doctrinal for salvation for millions who believe that Jesus saves them, then the next day they become unsaved or sinful because they sin, and have to get this sin back under the blood by confession.....And then, for the rest of their lives, they have to be really careful to keep confessing to keep the blood atonement active to keep being saved
That is their doctrine of "Salvation" and its their denomination's also.

Here it is....
1st John 1:9....."if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness".

So, this verse is quoted by millions and used by many denominations to prove you are saved... then you sin, then you confess and you are forgiven again, all over again, and if you dont keep this all your life, you'll end up going to hell like a bullet and burning like a torch after you die.

But THEN...... you have these verses, in the New Testament.

Hebrews 8:12 : For I (God) will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will i remember no more. (believers).
There you have Eternal God not remembering your sins, for as long as HE Lives.
Next:
Romans 4:8 : Blessed is the man (believer) whose SIN the Lord will never count against him.
Notice the tense of "sin".....that tense is not singular......it means ALL of them, exactly the same as SINS, that you find in Romans 4:8

Now, believer, who IS this person whose sins are no longer remembered, and whose sins are no longer counted against them.
= ALL CHRISTIANS.
And NOTICE.......The verse didnt say you would not sin....It said that your sinning is not held against you, and that ALL YOUR SINS God will remember NO MORE.
Thats YOU., if you are a Christian.
And it means that all Judgement for your lifetime of sin, is removed, so that you are not JUDGED after you die.
The Cross took care of this for you.

Now,.....very important..... go back to 1st John 1:9, and ask yourself if John is going to be telling >Christians< to confess THEIR sins, when Paul in Romans and Hebrews just told you that your sins are forgotten by God and never held against you again for eternity.
Ask yourself.....why would John be telling Christians to confess what GOD said he FORGOT and does not charge you with forever????
See it?
Once you SEE this, then you've seen the LIGHT, and once you see this Light you can be FREE and are FREED.

I'd consider your story a typical half a loaf. There are two simultaneous truths that apply to matters of sin, and YES, they will be counted. I will meet you half way and say YES, this will not result in eternal damnation, but it will result in "loss" ala:

1 Cor. 3:
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

There is also a "current penalty" that is paid in our present life for sin besides the post flesh 'trying' shown above.

Galatians 6:7
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

I do not buy the Tony Robbins equivalent angles of Gospel, that if we only think...that is what we have. Life does not work that way in reality.

 

[Kidron]

I'd consider your story a typical half a loaf. There are two simultaneous truths that apply to matters of sin, and YES, they will be counted. I will meet you half way and say YES, this will not result in eternal damnation, but it will result in "loss" ala:

1 Cor. 3:
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

There is also a "current penalty" that is paid in our present life for sin besides the post flesh 'trying' shown above.

Galatians 6:7
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

I do not buy the Tony Robbins equivalent angles of Gospel, that if we only think...that is what we have. Life does not work that way in reality.

-
My Thread is only dealing with who RECEIVED the ultimate penalty for our sins, and why.
Your post, however, examines the Judgement Seat of Christ as well as the cost of "sowing and reaping"< as a spiritual law.
Those are separate topics.

 

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Any believer that is not cognizant of our current state of reality in the flesh will continue to struggle with the scriptures, with deceptions, and will wind up with all kinds of crazy angles on the subject matters of sin, salvation, repentance, forgiveness etc etc. I swear I've seen it all and heard it all at this point in my life.

Let's face a few hard facts about sin from the scriptures:

Sin is a fact for all:

Romans 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Sin dwells in our flesh. It is NOT something we are able to rid ourselves of, even if we don't let it show up on the outside. Evil is for no uncertain fact present with us just as it was for Paul. No amount of whining and crying at the alter altar is going to alter these facts:

Romans 7:
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Sin ACTIVELY seeks to deceive us and to destroy us:

Romans 7:
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

God will not be blessing and overlooking the sin of NO MAN. Evil present with us and sin dwelling in our flesh has not received a "free pass" from God, this much is certain. God has set every man to die in the flesh because of SIN. As believers we are to "account" this a foregone conclusion until it is a reality.

Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

The above is where Paul shows us TWO simultaneous yet OPPOSING truths. Death and Life in the same set of shoes. Paul drew this fact directly from the O.T., here for example:

Deuteronomy 30:15
See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

No amount of choice is going to wipe any of those 4 matters away from the scriptural equations.

Paul made the exact opposite conclusion as the opening poster makes, here:

1 Timothy 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Not "I was" chief, but "I am."

Sin is also directly linked to the devil(s), here for example showing the "theft" of Word from people's hearts. Mark 4:15. This shows us who else is involved with 'sin' besides just sweet old me and my sorry hide. John the Apostle makes the identical case, here:

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

The commitment of sin begins internally, by lying deception from the chief predator of our hearts who is undoubtedly EVIL to his core, that would be the devil, Satan:

Matthew 5:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Matthew 15:
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Mark 7:
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

And these are not MAYBE's. They are a direct reaction of SIN coming into contact with Gods Laws and the "internal resistance" that is sure to follow in our minds, no differently than Paul exposes to himself in Romans 7:7-13, as an action of the presence of indwelling sin and evil present with us.

IF we know the rules about how "sin" operates we are less apt to be deceived by it. Yet the conundrum involved here is that we can not stop it's operations. It does what it does, period, end of conversation.

I wish I actually could make myself sinless in the flesh. I simply have no idea how to go about that because it is IMPOSSIBLE. That is a job that is solely in the hands of Christ, to be done LATER, in the order God has set:

Philippians 3:21
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Until that time we continue to maintain a TWO ASPECT relationship with God. As both our Savior and as our RESISTOR:

Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

When anyone claims their flesh is NOT contrary to the Spirit, they are not looking very hard at their own flesh, their own "thought life" or their own real produce. When they do they WILL find the factual contrariness and the RIGHTFUL condemnation that Christ has against ALL sin:

Romans 8:3
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

I know my "place." The last seat I would want to be in as a believer is the seat of lying hypocrisy, claiming I was sinless, that Jesus doesn't condemn sin and evil, that I can avoid that condemnation when it's the very fact of it that kills all of us in the flesh and destroys the world, continually, daily, progressively so in case no one is looking.

Sinless? Is that some kind of a theological JOKE that if we repeat it over and over it's true?

I will guarantee every sinner that in the flesh we are marked for no uncertain destruction of our flesh. I can go dig up my fathers grave today and I will see a dead body that died because of SIN. It does not please me to have that thought about a man I loved dearly, but he and a lot a lot a LOT of other people I LOVEDs bodies are lying therein because of SIN. It is not a joke. And should the Lord tarry, every last one of us will find our bodies in the same place, eventually.

Thank God that is not the end of the Gospel accounts.

It is mandatory ground for any disciple of Christ to HATE their own lives. If not, they can NOT be His disciples:

Luke 14:26
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

The basis of that rightful hatred is our present condition in the flesh, with indwelling sin and evil present with us. It is also the basis of conflict between the Spirit and the flesh. It is also the basis of rightful condemnation by the Spirit. Every believer likes the good stuff. Who can own up to reality and speak truthfully or who is dodging the obvious is the only question.

I believe God intends for us to be at a minimum, honest. I honestly can not say I have (present tense application) no sin or I am NOT in Truth. 1 John 1:8

 

[smaller]

-
My Thread is only dealing with who RECEIVED the ultimate penalty for our sins, and why.
Your post, however, examines the Judgement Seat of Christ as well as the cost of "sowing and reaping"< as a spiritual law.
Those are separate topics.

It would be nice to parse out of scripture only the pleasant facts that seek to justify us entirely, and ignore that which can not possibly be justified.

The foundation of the receipt of Gods Mercy is predicated on the facts of our very real sinful state.

Paul did not come to the same conclusion you do regarding himself, post salvation. 1 Tim. 1:15. I'll follow Paul in that lead. And KNOW why what he said was TRUE.

 

[Kidron]

God will not be blessing and overlooking the sin of NO MAN.

I know my "place." The last seat I would want to be in as a believer is the seat of lying hypocrisy, claiming I was sinless,
Sinless? Is that some kind of a theological JOKE that if we repeat it over and over it's true?

It is mandatory ground for any disciple of Christ to HATE their own lives. If not, they can NOT be His disciples:

Luke 14:26
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

-

God will not be blessing and overlooking the sin of NO MAN.


God does not bless sin, he blesses people, and He blesses situations.
And you are right, God does not overlook sin.....if He did, then Jesus didnt have to die on a cross for yours and mine.
However, after Jesus has died for all those sins, (past, present, future), God no longer remembers them.
Hebrews 8:12
Also, any sinning we do after we are saved has already been paid for by Christ's DEATH, so, as this is the FULL AND FINAL payment due for our sin, .. God does not charge us with them in eternity, as Jesus has already paid for them ON EARTH.

Romans 4:8


I know my "place." The last seat I would want to be in as a believer is the seat of lying hypocrisy, claiming I was sinless,
Sinless? Is that some kind of a theological JOKE that if we repeat it over and over it's true?


After you are saved, you have become the "Righteousness of God", so, you cant get any more sinless then that.
So, what you are meaning, is that you still have an Adamic nature that wants to feel pleasures that are not holy.
Paul calls these "works of the flesh".
So, legally, because the law has been taken away from you, because Jesus fulfilled the Law, you are not "under the law" anymore, so, the Law cant judge you as a sinner, anymore.
""where there is no law there is no transgression".
Thats a part of what salvation accomplished for you., as you are "redeemed from the curse of the law".
This means that you are saved forever, you are eternally redeemed by the blood of Jesus, or as the
scripture says in.... Hebrews 9:11: "" JESUS by his own BLOOD has obtained eternal redemption for us"..
This is why you have "eternal security". = "Jesus BY HIS OWN BLOOD HAS OBTAINED ETERNAL REDEMPTION FOR US"""
SO, HOW LONG DOES REDEMPTION LAST?.....HOW LONG ARE YOU SAVED??? = >ETERNAL< REDEMPTION.
NOT PART TIME, OR TEMPORARY.


It is mandatory ground for any disciple of Christ to HATE their own lives. If not, they can NOT be His disciples:
Luke 14:26
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.


Think about this....If God is Love, and Jesus tells us to love our enemies, then why would we hate our family?
Ummm, no.
So, hate as its used there is not telling you to hate anyone.....its showing you the level of dedication that he is talking about, comparing it to that word, as that word is very intense, its used there in the sense of obsession and total focus or being "sold out"...."all in".

 

[smaller]

God does not bless sin, he blesses people, and He blesses situations.
And you are right, God does not overlook sin.....if He did, then Jesus didnt have to die on a cross for yours and mine.

Were that the only theological factor involved with sin you'd have a point. As previously noted sin is demonic in the flesh nature. Sin is not just about man. We are to rule over that working, not excuse it. Not let the demonic influences behind it off the hook by the claim of sinlessness in Christ. 1 John 3:8 shows us sin is demonic.

However, after Jesus has died for all those sins, (past, present, future), God no longer remembers them.
Hebrews 8:12

Jesus sacrificed for no devil to excuse them, cover them, their work or ways. The sacrifice of Christ does not stretch as far as your claims attempt.

Also, any sinning we do after we are saved has already been paid for by Christ's DEATH, so, as this is the FULL AND FINAL payment due for our sin, .. God does not charge us with them in eternity, as Jesus has already paid for them ON EARTH.

That's not all that's involved. Israel went precisely astray because of spiritual whoredom in their midst, and paid a dear price many times for demonic activity repeatedly. Hosea 4:12, 5:4

After you are saved, you have become the "Righteousness of God", so, you cant get any more sinless then that.

There is no righteousness of God in Christ attributed to the flesh. It can not be done when the flesh is in fact contrary to the Spirit and vice versa as previously noted. Gal. 5:17. There is no righteousness of Christ attributed to "evil present" with us. Romans 7:21. There is no righteousness of Christ attributed to sin indwelling the flesh. Romans 7:17-20. A factual contrary state does exist just as Gal. 5:17 shows us.

So, what you are meaning, is that you still have an Adamic nature that wants to feel pleasures that are not holy.
Paul calls these "works of the flesh".

I'm not that kind to evil present/indwelling sin and call it what scriptures call it. Demonic evil. 1 John 3:8. There is no use dragging Adam into the picture when the real culprit was then and still is today, the tempter. Gen. 3:13

So, legally, because the law has been taken away from you, because Jesus fulfilled the Law, you are not "under the law" anymore, so, the Law cant judge you as a sinner, anymore.

The law is for sinners. 1 Tim. 1:9. The devil(s) is also a sinner. 1 John 3:8. The devil is moved into resisting action by the Word (inclusive of LAW). Mark 4:15, Romans 7:7-13.

""where there is no law there is no transgression".
Thats a part of what salvation accomplished for you., as you are "redeemed from the curse of the law".

I've given this example many many times. Here is Paul's description of himself:

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

What you are quite fruitlessly trying to do is to overlook the role of the other party under the guise of the whole package of 'believing man,' failing to see what is "in" the flesh of 'believing man.' It will never work and will not, can not be scripturally credible. You have a one sided story line that completely overlooks our mutual adversary.

This means that you are saved forever, you are eternally redeemed by the blood of Jesus, or as the
scripture says in.... Hebrews 9:11: "" JESUS by his own BLOOD has obtained eternal redemption for us"..
This is why you have "eternal security". = "Jesus BY HIS OWN BLOOD HAS OBTAINED ETERNAL REDEMPTION FOR US"""

SO, HOW LONG DOES REDEMPTION LAST?.....HOW LONG ARE YOU SAVED??? = >ETERNAL< REDEMPTION.
NOT PART TIME, OR TEMPORARY.

No one in this present life is released from or exempt from the wrestling matches with our adversary. Eph. 6:11-12. Nor are these various theological inquiries only about us as individuals from the perspectives of scripture. Until any believer comes to grips with the fact of the adversary as a personal matter and an "evil thing" we deal with in our own flesh they can not see these things and will instead only see themselves as the enemy or even worse, deny they even have a battle on their hands, up front close and personal. Rev. 12:11

There is overcoming to be had in this present life with that adversary. The battle is personal, to the man.

Think about this....If God is Love, and Jesus tells us to love our enemies, then why would we hate our family?
Ummm, no.

We have no, zero, scriptural mandates to "love" the sin indwelling our flesh or the evil present within anyone, period. Starting with our own sorry hides. What Jesus said is exactly TRUE in Luke 14:26. Those who do not have this hatred are not even yet in the disciple of Jesus camp, and rather have smeared the entirety of what the Spirit is contrary to with coverups, overlooks and excuses. Or claiming it is not true or applicable, this contrary state and the need to overcome. Scripture does not say failure is going to cost any believer their eternal rest.

So, hate as its used there is not telling you to hate anyone.....its showing you the level of dedication that he is talking about, comparing it to that word, as that word is very intense, its used there in the sense of obsession and total focus or being "sold out"...."all in".

Wrong answer. Were it not HATE Jesus wouldn't have said HATE.

I've heard every slant possible to avoid the conclusion of that hatred. It is a hate mandate, plain and simple, for all legitimate disciples. It is the opposite conclusion that you are trying to sell. If I want to buy the "love of the world and everything in it" bill of phony goods the new age movement sells it a lot better.

1 John 2:15
Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

 

[Cygnus]

In v.23 Paul sees two forces at work in his life. One is New Birth, and the other is the law of sin which is activated by the old nature. Yes, we have two natures. The nature of the sinful flesh, and the Nature of the Christ, imputed by the Holy Spirit at Salvation. In order to activate the forgiveness of our future sins which are activated by the flesh nature in all of us, repentance and forgiveness must be sought for each future sin. Otherwise, we continue on in our Christian walk with unconfessed sin, and Jethro Bodine, my Pal, will tell you what unconfessed sin will do for you at the great White Throne of Christ Jesus.

Chopper, I have to respectfully disagree with your paragraph above,

I doubt you can find one Christian who has confessed and repented of all of their sins. In other words, every Christian has unconfessed sin.
What will you do with all of your unconfessed sin the day you stand before the great White Throne of Christ Jesus?

 

[WIP]

Chopper, I have to respectfully disagree with your paragraph above,

I doubt you can find one Christian who has confessed and repented of all of their sins. In other words, every Christian has unconfessed sin.
What will you do with all of your unconfessed sin the day you stand before the great White Throne of Christ Jesus?

Interesting question. I don't believe I will or can do anything with them. I believe and trust that Christ has already paid the penalty for them and taken the punishment I deserve. I will lay my sins at His feet and let Him kick them into the trash.

 

[Cygnus]

Interesting question. I don't believe I will or can do anything with them. I believe and trust that Christ has already paid the penalty for them and taken the punishment I deserve. I will lay my sins at His feet and let Him kick them into the trash.

WIP, I have to agree.

 

[Kidron]

What will you do with all of your unconfessed sin ?

-
Jesus took all mine when , " God made HIM to became sin who knew no sin" on the cross..... 2nd Corinthians 5:21
So on the CROSS Jesus DIED and ALL my sins went with Him.
Now, im the "righteousness of God in Christ". 2nd Corinthians 5:21
Or as God puts it...."their sins and their iniquities I GOD WILL REMEMBER NO MORE".. Hebrews 8:12
AND God said, HE "does not charge me with them, ever again".. Romans 4:8

Also, saved people are not judged in heaven for their sins, = because Jesus was already Judge for them on a CROSS on Earth.
This is called "SALVATION".
So, Revelations 20:11, is not for a Son of God.

 

[Kidron]

There is no righteousness of God in Christ attributed to the flesh.


1 John 2:15
Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

There is no righteousness of God in Christ attributed to the flesh.

"BORN AGAIN", is to become the "righteousness of God", is to be sinless, as this is our "join heir", "in Christ","as Christ is in the world SO ARE WE", Eternal Son of God status" ... RIGHT NOW... that cant be disconnected by a sin, as a sin is a work of the flesh and has nothing to do with our BORN AGAIN SPIRIT, that is eternally redeemed, and cut away from the flesh by the "circumcision made without hands"... Colossians .. Colossians 2:11
Flesh and BORN AGAIN Spirit, are not the same.
So, God saved our Spirit man, our BORN AGAIN PART, but will redeem our filthy flesh at the Rapture when we receive the new body that is just like Jesus's body.


1 John 2:15
Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
----

This verse simply means to "not be conformed to this world >. world system.
It does not mean that you cant love your puppy or love your cat or love your new Toyota, or your brand new handmade guitar.

 

[smaller]

There is no righteousness of God in Christ attributed to the flesh.

"BORN AGAIN", is to become the "righteousness of God", is to be sinless, as this is our "join heir", "in Christ","as Christ is in the world SO ARE WE", Eternal Son of God status" ... RIGHT NOW... that cant be disconnected by a sin, as a sin is a work of the flesh and has nothing to do with our BORN AGAIN SPIRIT, that is eternally redeemed, and cut away from the flesh by the "circumcision made without hands"... Colossians .. Colossians 2:11
Flesh and BORN AGAIN Spirit, are not the same.
So, God saved our Spirit man, our BORN AGAIN PART, but will redeem our filthy flesh at the Rapture when we receive the new body that is just like Jesus's body.


1 John 2:15
Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
----

This verse simply means to "not be conformed to this world >. world system.
It does not mean that you cant love your puppy or love your cat or love your new Toyota, or your brand new handmade guitar.

I appreciate the rosy optimism, but it's not the whole scriptural story.

1 Timothy 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Not was. Am. Present tense. Your quest, should you decide to accept it, is to figure out how both your intended sight, which I don't disagree with, harmonizes with Paul's "other" statements to the contrary of your sight.

The point being we really don't get that far on half a loaf half baked doctrines/positions/understandings. What we WILL find in regards to sin is that it is demonic, 1 John 3:8, and that SIN WILL BE COUNTED.

Scripture presents TWO accounts that are both true.

Sin is forgiven.
Sin ISN'T forgiven.

The answers reside in getting ALL the parties on the table for view. The very real problem IS that the workings of the adversary IN believers will not accept that their sin is in fact demonic, of that "other" entity. And it is the other entity that blinds "believers" minds to this scriptural fact. It's actually quite fascinating to watch.