when is the great white throne judgement=?

[thesaintman]

can you say me it

 

[Who Me]

Rev 20:11 mentions it.
This is a word picture of the day of judgement, which will happen when Jesus returns.

 

[for_his_glory]

Moving this thread over to the End Times forum for a better fit.

 

[for_his_glory]

Timeline
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other Matthew 24:29-31, 1 Corinthians 15:51-57; 2 Thessalonians 4:13-18; John 5:28, 29; John 6:40.

Rev 19:17-21 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God that ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

I need to backtrack a little bit in order to show the chronology of the events that will take place at this time on the last day. When Christ returns in the clouds every eye will see Him and the earth will wail His coming, Rev 1:7. The earth is those who are worldly that followed after the beast from every nation. The kings of the earth and their armies are those political leaders of every nation that will gather their armies to fight against Christ when He returns when they see Him coming in the air.

At this time those who are in the grave and alive at His coming that are His own will then be caught up to the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. The last day has no ending for we know from that point on we will be with the Lord for ever. We can not see this as a 24 hour day as this is the time of our seventh day rest like that of God in Genesis 2:3 as He sanctified that day and set it apart from all the other days that were evening and morning, but this seventh day had no evening.

Right before Christ returns the great harlot and mystery Babylon, being the revived Roman Empire, will be destroyed, Rev 17, 18. The marriage supper of the Lamb follows after this with Christ returning in the air with His army of angels who are the host of heaven, Rev 19:11-14. He sends His angels out to the four corners of the earth to gather all who are asleep in their graves and those still alive at His coming that are His own. We are then given our new glorified bodies and caught up in the clouds to meet Him in the air, Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Corinthians 15:51-57; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. Once we are safely with Christ in the air, He only has to speak the words as He takes the beast and false prophet (son of perdition) alive and cast them into the lake of fire. All those political leaders from every nation on every continent that followed after the beast will be slain by the words Jesus speaks as what we read in Rev 19 is all done by Christ being in the air where we are yet with Him before He plants His feet on the mount of Olives.

Rev 20:11-14 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God and the books were opened and another book was opened, which is the book of life and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

John sees in his vision a great white throne and Him that sits in righteous judgment. The he is Christ Jesus in whom God has committed all judgment unto Him, Daniel 2:31-35; John 5:21-27, and now sits on His own throne beside the throne of God. Also at this time the heaven and earth will pass away as there is no place found of them anymore, Matthew 24:35.

All people from every nation that have been raised from the dead are gathered before the throne of God and His Son Christ Jesus seated on His throne of glory as He separates the sheep from the goats, Matthew 25:31-46. The books are opened with one of them being the Lamb's book of life where all the saints of God have their names written as they have part of the resurrection and already judged and receive eternal life on such the second death hath no power, Rev 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:54-57.

The other book is opened being the book of damnation where the enemies of God that were killed while trying to destroy the camp of the saints are now joined with those enemies of Christ that were also raised from their graves in the resurrection and are reserved unto the day of judgment, 2 Peter 2:9. They are now condemned, judged and will be cast into the lake of fire. And death (Spiritually dead) and hell (the grave) are cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Endtimesdeut32]

Would it be the same as Daniel 7, where in vs 13,14, judgement was given in favor of Christ, and then later in the chapter, the judgement sat and took effect?

 

[for_his_glory]

Would it be the same as Daniel 7, where in vs 13,14, judgement was given in favor of Christ, and then later in the chapter, the judgement sat and took effect?

Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

When we read Daniel 7:13-14 and many other things the Prophets have written are prophecies mainly for the latter dats/end of days. Vs. 14 makes it very clear about all judgement given to Jesus on the last day when He returns. His dominion is everlasting and will never pass away. This everlasting kingdom is speaking about the New Jerusalem in Rev 21.

 

[DavidT]

can you say me it

There's a debate when God's Great White Throne Judgment happens, which I don't think the debate should exist. Because it's clear at the end of Revelation 20 after Christ has reigned over the nations for the "thousand years", at the end of period is when God's Great White Judgment will happen.

Some on man's theory of Amillennialism believe that GWT Judgment happens immediately on the day of Lord Jesus' future return. But that is not written. Some of the wicked are destroyed on that day of Christ's return (like the 7,000 of Revelation 11), but not all the wicked are destroyed then.

Zechariah 14:16-17 reveals that those left of all the nations that came up against Jerusalem (on the last day) will be made to come worship The KING after Christ's return, and keep the feast of tabernacles. And those of all the families of the earth that refuse to come up to Jerusalem from year to year to worship (i.e., during the 1,000 years of Rev.20), there will be no rain upon their lands.

 

[Endtimesdeut32]

Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

When we read Daniel 7:13-14 and many other things the Prophets have written are prophecies mainly for the latter dats/end of days. Vs. 14 makes it very clear about all judgement given to Jesus on the last day when He returns. His dominion is everlasting and will never pass away. This everlasting kingdom is speaking about the New Jerusalem in Rev 21.

Thanks for the response.
Here is the preliminary verse in Dan 7 that gives context to the judgement described in vs 13,14,22 & 25ff.

*[[Dan 7:9/KJVLite]]* I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

Most people understand the wording of revelation to reflect prophecies and wording of the old testament. This is the only place I know of where a white thrown is described.

Whether this is future or past isn't really pertinent to my answer. There are some, even many sincere people on both sides of that topic. Dan 7 does appear to me to be a reference to how the disciples suffered under Nero for 3 1/2 years followed by partial releif from Judaic or Roman/Judaic persecution and their public favorable approval and judgement from heaven.

But, being that is discussable and of varied opinion, do you know of any other location in the Old testament where a white throne is mentioned,?

Thanks.

 

[for_his_glory]

Thanks for the response.
Here is the preliminary verse in Dan 7 that gives context to the judgement described in vs 13,14,22 & 25ff.

*[[Dan 7:9/KJVLite]]* I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

Most people understand the wording of revelation to reflect prophecies and wording of the old testament. This is the only place I know of where a white thrown is described.

Whether this is future or past isn't really pertinent to my answer. There are some, even many sincere people on both sides of that topic. Dan 7 does appear to me to be a reference to how the disciples suffered under Nero for 3 1/2 years followed by partial releif from Judaic or Roman/Judaic persecution and their public favorable approval and judgement from heaven.

But, being that is discussable and of varied opinion, do you know of any other location in the Old testament where a white throne is mentioned,?

Thanks.

I really do not think there are any OT scriptures that literally has the Great White Throne in them that I have ever read, but I could be wrong. We do read in Rev 20:10-15 that this final judgement happens on the last day when Christ returns and first will cast the beast and the false prophet into the lake of fire, Rev 19:11-21. Rev 20:10 than Satan will be cast into the lake of fire. Final judgement then comes to all whose names are not found in the Lamb's Book of Life as they are judged and also cast into the lake of fire. All done on the last day when Christ returns.

Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

If you read from vs 9-14 in Daniel 7 the Ancient of days is Christ Jesus when He returns on the last day as described in Rev 19:11-21.

As far as Nero, in the summer of 64AD Rome suffered a terrible fire that burned for six days and seven nights consuming almost three quarters of the city. The people blamed Nero for setting the fire for his own pleasure, but he turned it around and blamed the Christians living there and had them tortured to death.

 

[Endtimesdeut32]

I really do not think there are any OT scriptures that literally has the Great White Throne in them that I have ever read, but I could be wrong. We do read in Rev 20:10-15 that this final judgement happens on the last day when Christ returns and first will cast the beast and the false prophet into the lake of fire, Rev 19:11-21. Rev 20:10 than Satan will be cast into the lake of fire. Final judgement then comes to all whose names are not found in the Lamb's Book of Life as they are judged and also cast into the lake of fire. All done on the last day when Christ returns.

Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

If you read from vs 9-14 in Daniel 7 the Ancient of days is Christ Jesus when He returns on the last day as described in Rev 19:11-21.

As far as Nero, in the summer of 64AD Rome suffered a terrible fire that burned for six days and seven nights consuming almost three quarters of the city. The people blamed Nero for setting the fire for his own pleasure, but he turned it around and blamed the Christians living there and had them tortured to death

If I remember correctly, I thought I recall reading that some say that the instigation for Rome to blame the Christians came from the Jews.. Nero was involved with a jewish woman, possibly herod's sister or some other relative? And some suppose that she had influence with him.

As you mentioned the reference to a last day or the latter days., ...3 X in Deuteronomy 31:29, Deuteronomy 32:20 and Deuteronomy 32:29 a mention is made of Latter days or their end. And a few other places in Deuteronomy such as chapter 4, a utter destruction and end of the ways of the way being spoken that day by Moses is declared. And according to Deut 18:15-19, this end would come at the time that a voice would be heard from heaven and a new prophet like Moses would arrive. Peter mentions this prophecy in acts 3 and again in 2peter 1.

So, would or could they be referring to the same last days which you refer to later in revelation?

I searched the whole Bible. The only place white and throne are in the same verse is here in Daniel 7 though I agree that it is the hair and garments which are white as the throne itself is on fire.

 

[DavidT]

If I remember correctly, I thought I recall reading that some say that the instigation for Rome to blame the Christians came from the Jews.. Nero was involved with a jewish woman, possibly herod's sister or some other relative? And some suppose that she had influence with him.

As you mentioned the reference to a last day or the latter days., ...3 X in Deuteronomy 31:29, Deuteronomy 32:20 and Deuteronomy 32:29 a mention is made of Latter days or their end. And a few other places in Deuteronomy such as chapter 4, a utter destruction and end of the ways of the way being spoken that day by Moses is declared. And according to Deut 18:15-19, this end would come at the time that a voice would be heard from heaven and a new prophet like Moses would arrive. Peter mentions this prophecy in acts 3 and again in 2peter 1.

So, would or could they be referring to the same last days which you refer to later in revelation?

I searched the whole Bible. The only place white and throne are in the same verse is here in Daniel 7 though I agree that it is the hair and garments which are white as the throne itself is on fire.

Does Bible Scripture have... to specifically say "great white throne" to understand the Revelation 20 final judgment day is literal, and even hinted at in other Bible Scripture? No, I don't think so...

Isa 24:21-23
21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.

22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before His ancients gloriously.
KJV

That above Scripture, in the Book of God's prophet Isaiah, reveals a time between Christ's 2nd coming to end the reign of the wicked on earth, and the time of their later final judgment after having been shut up in the prison (i..e, pit prison of Rev.20), and after many days, are visited. It does not say a "thousand years" either, but it's obvious that is the "many days" referred to there, pointing to the events in Revelation 20 about Christ's future "thousand years" reign with His elect.

Therefore, I don't know what one calls it, when one makes it their own personal requirement that a specific term in one Scripture MUST be repeated in order to prove a Biblical witness of that same event in a different Bible Book.

 

[Endtimesdeut32]

Does Bible Scripture have... to specifically say "great white throne" to understand the Revelation 20 final judgment day is literal, and even hinted at in other Bible Scripture? No, I don't think so...

Isa 24:21-23
21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.

22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before His ancients gloriously.
KJV

That above Scripture, in the Book of God's prophet Isaiah, reveals a time between Christ's 2nd coming to end the reign of the wicked on earth, and the time of their later final judgment after having been shut up in the prison (i..e, pit prison of Rev.20), and after many days, are visited. It does not say a "thousand years" either, but it's obvious that is the "many days" referred to there, pointing to the events in Revelation 20 about Christ's future "thousand years" reign with His elect.

Therefore, I don't know what one calls it, when one makes it their own personal requirement that a specific term in one Scripture MUST be repeated in order to prove a Biblical witness of that same event in a different Bible Book.

Well would this passage in Isaiah 24 then also be referring to the same latter end as described by Moses in the above mentioned passages?

It's a beautiful poetry in Isaiah 24.

Ez 38:8 is another verse. which refers to some years and some time. But that verse also mentions that this would be after being restored after the sword passes through. Neonder if the time of the sword is being described in is 24....?

It is just a very common occurrence that prophecies with the same subject matter are repeated using different words in order to add characteristics and depth to the event or occurrence.

Think if all the different names and symbols for Christ. "Your seed" in gen 3:15, Shiloh in gen 49, scepter of Judah in gen, prophet like Moses in deut 18, Immanuel ..etc etc.

That's why I believe at the very least, Dan ,7:9 is the first mention of a judgement using white and throne. But there is likely many other overlapping prophecies.....is 59:14ff for just one.

I guess your aware that Deut 32 is referred in deut 31 as the song of Moses. Any ideas or reasons that the Christian saints are singing this song in rev 15:3?

 

[DavidT]

Well would this passage in Isaiah 24 then also be referring to the same latter end as described by Moses in the above mentioned passages?

It's a beautiful poetry in Isaiah 24.

That Isaiah 24 Scripture is within a group of Chapters some Bible scholars call 'the Apocalypse of Isaiah', which means it parallels the Apocalypse of The Book of Revelation. It is about the end of this present world.

 

[Endtimesdeut32]

That Isaiah 24 Scripture is within a group of Chapters some Bible scholars call 'the Apocalypse of Isaiah', which means it parallels the Apocalypse of The Book of Revelation. It is about the end of this present world.

Yes, Isaiah 24-26 even to 28 have familiar themes. I'm personally not buying into the idea that it refers to the end of this present world, but to the same ends mentioned in deut 4, 18, 31 and 32. It was the end of their present world.

That's why the saints sing the song of Moses in rev 15:3. It's the saints of Christ singing of their vindication at the end of the mosaic covt world.

I wonder how many times paypul or Jesus refer to these chapters? And in one chapter it refers to one who spreads out his. Arms like a swimmer.

 

[DavidT]

Yes, Isaiah 24-26 even to 28 have familiar themes. I'm personally not buying into the idea that it refers to the end of this present world, but to the same ends mentioned in deut 4, 18, 31 and 32. It was the end of their present world.

What I read there in Deuteronomy 31 and 32 is a historical summary, which includes prophecy yet future to Moses' day. So I don't see it possible to assume that the Song of Moses was solely historical.

Deut 31:29-30
29 For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke Him to anger through the work of your hands.

30 And Moses spake in the ears of all the congregation of Israel the words of this song, until they were ended.
KJV

We know historically that the children of Israel fell into idol worship and God fulfilled His warnings of Deuteronomy 4 and 28 upon them that He would scatter them among the Gentiles. Yet Moses also pointed out how evil would befall the children of Israel in the "latter days", so it involves prophecy for our times too.

These following verses of Deut.32 are clearly about the end of this world, and have not been completed yet today:

Deut 32:36-43
36 For the LORD shall judge His people, and repent Himself for His servants, when He seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left.

37 And He shall say, "Where are their gods, their rock in whom they trusted,

38 Which did eat the fat of their sacrifices, and drank the wine of their drink offerings? let them rise up and help you, and be your protection.

39 See now that I, even I, am He, and there is no god with Me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of My hand.

40 For I lift up My hand to heaven, and say, 'I live for ever.'

41 If I whet My glittering sword, and Mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to Mine enemies, and will reward them that hate Me.

42 I will make Mine arrows drunk with blood, and My sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy.

43 Rejoice, O ye nations, with His people: for He will avenge the blood of His servants, and will render vengeance to His adversaries, and will be merciful unto His land, and to His people.
KJV

Those above latter verses in Deuteronomy 32 are definitely about the last day of this present world.

 

[for_his_glory]

If I remember correctly, I thought I recall reading that some say that the instigation for Rome to blame the Christians came from the Jews.. Nero was involved with a jewish woman, possibly herod's sister or some other relative? And some suppose that she had influence with him.

As you mentioned the reference to a last day or the latter days., ...3 X in Deuteronomy 31:29, Deuteronomy 32:20 and Deuteronomy 32:29 a mention is made of Latter days or their end. And a few other places in Deuteronomy such as chapter 4, a utter destruction and end of the ways of the way being spoken that day by Moses is declared. And according to Deut 18:15-19, this end would come at the time that a voice would be heard from heaven and a new prophet like Moses would arrive. Peter mentions this prophecy in acts 3 and again in 2peter 1.

So, would or could they be referring to the same last days which you refer to later in revelation?

I searched the whole Bible. The only place white and throne are in the same verse is here in Daniel 7 though I agree that it is the hair and garments which are white as the throne itself is on fire.

Latter day is mentioned in 19 books of the Bible and occurs 40 times within them. It always points to a later or subsequent time in the future.

Three examples:

Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

Pro 19:20 Hear counsel, and receive instruction, that thou mayest be wise in thy latter end.

Hag 2:9 The glory of this latter house shall be greater than of the former, saith the LORD of hosts: and in this place will I give peace, saith the LORD of hosts.

 

[Endtimesdeut32]

Well, the prophecy of their utter destruction in deut 4 and the prophecy of their deaths for disbelief in the new prophet like Moses as declared in deut 18:15-18 would be part of those latter and last days. But Peter in Acts 3 says that all the prophets from Samuel onward spoke of these days of judgement upon the disbelieving in Jesus. If that hadn't happened in 70 ad to fulfill that prophecy. Then we could look to the future. But Peter was referring to these days in which they were living.

So we'll be in disagreement on the timing of the ends mentioned in Deuteronomy.

Paul quotes deut 30:11-14 in Romans 10:5-8 declaring it's fulfillment by the words of Christ, now residing within. Deut 31 and 32 are subsequent to the new covt. B Their rock in deut 32 refers to the rock which the Jews rely upon. It is not the same as our (Christians) rock.


We'll continue to disagree, so I'll leave it at that.

 

[for_his_glory]

Well, the prophecy of their utter destruction in deut 4 and the prophecy of their deaths for disbelief in the new prophet like Moses as declared in deut 18:15-18 would be part of those latter and last days. But Peter in Acts 3 says that all the prophets from Samuel onward spoke of these days of judgement upon the disbelieving in Jesus. If that hadn't happened in 70 ad to fulfill that prophecy. Then we could look to the future. But Peter was referring to these days in which they were living.

So we'll be in disagreement on the timing of the ends mentioned in Deuteronomy.

Paul quotes deut 30:11-14 in Romans 10:5-8 declaring it's fulfillment by the words of Christ, now residing within. Deut 31 and 32 are subsequent to the new covt. B Their rock in deut 32 refers to the rock which the Jews rely upon. It is not the same as our (Christians) rock.


We'll continue to disagree, so I'll leave it at that.

Not sure who you are addressing here. It helps if you first give the members name at the beginning of your replies in the following way so we know who you are talking to.

@ for_his_glory but do not leave a space after the @ it will look like this Endtimesdeut32

 

[DavidT]

Well, the prophecy of their utter destruction in deut 4 and the prophecy of their deaths for disbelief in the new prophet like Moses as declared in deut 18:15-18 would be part of those latter and last days. But Peter in Acts 3 says that all the prophets from Samuel onward spoke of these days of judgement upon the disbelieving in Jesus. If that hadn't happened in 70 ad to fulfill that prophecy. Then we could look to the future. But Peter was referring to these days in which they were living.

So we'll be in disagreement on the timing of the ends mentioned in Deuteronomy.

Paul quotes deut 30:11-14 in Romans 10:5-8 declaring it's fulfillment by the words of Christ, now residing within. Deut 31 and 32 are subsequent to the new covt. B Their rock in deut 32 refers to the rock which the Jews rely upon. It is not the same as our (Christians) rock.


We'll continue to disagree, so I'll leave it at that.

But can you only include those Scriptures you mention as proof that judgment was for 70 A.D.? I don't think so, since there's more New Testament Scripture written about the very end and another judgment coming upon Jerusalem involving the last days "beast" of Revelation 11. The Babylon Harlot symbol is actually about endtime Jerusalem when the Antichrist is setup there for the very end.

 

[Prycejosh1987]

Yeah, the GWTJ is after the 1000 years of the reign of Jesus Christ.