When to obey/disobey gov't

[ReginaForbes]

Since this is a hot button issue in another thread, I thought I'd like to take it here- because really, what does the Bible say about obeying gov't? And what if that gov't is corrupt?

Romans 13:1-5 says: "Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience."

However, what should one do if the gov't requires you to violate the principals of your faith?

According to Acts 4: 18-20 "18 Then they called them in again and commanded them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus. 19 But Peter and John replied, “Which is right in God’s eyes: to listen to you, or to him? You be the judges! 20 As for us, we cannot help speaking about what we have seen and heard.”
And Acts 5: 27-32 "27 The apostles were brought in and made to appear before the Sanhedrin to be questioned by the high priest. 28 “We gave you strict orders not to teach in this name,” he said. “Yet you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and are determined to make us guilty of this man’s blood.”
29 Peter and the other apostles replied: “We must obey God rather than human beings! 30 The God of our ancestors raised Jesus from the dead—whom you killed by hanging him on a cross. 31 God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might bring Israel to repentance and forgive their sins. 32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”

Therefore, I give you some sample situations (some based on reality, some hypothetical) to debate-

Situation A: All evangelical Christians are ordered to convert to another faith or they will be court-marshaled from the military. What is the right thing to do?
Situation B: The local law makes it illegal to provide food and shelter to the homeless. However, you are a member of a charity that provides these things. Should the charity comply?
Situation C: The gov't outlaws Christianity, as they believe that all Christians (regardless of denomination) are traitors. Do you maintain your faith even though you are branded as a traitor?
Situation D: The gov't requires that in order to prove one's loyalty and obedience to the gov't, that one must worship the president as a god. Do you violate the 1st Commandment?
Situation E: The US gov't puts into effect a law in which all people are to receive a mark on their hand or forehead in order to be able to buy/sell or basically function in society. Do you take the mark?

Basically, where is the line in the sand? When is it a bad idea to obey the gov't? Or should be be blindly obedient regardless?

 

[reba]

member Rick W... has a couple good posts on this subject ... here is one... i will try and find another...

"They are elected representatives. How is a representative in authority over those they represent?
A military officer issues an order it's expected to be carried out. Big time. But the governor of my state can knock on my door, issue an order and I can tell him to get in his car and go back where he came from. He would need a warrant or other legal document issued by a judge that he convinced that I'm guilty of some crime and a police officer in attendance before trying such a thing. He'd best have some form of "due process of law" to issue me an order that I must obey.

I'm free from his whims regardless of his position. He's a representative of the people of this state. That's all. The people put him in there and the people can take him out.

I understand what you're trying to say. But it's just isn't like what you want it to mean.
Let's say there's a town meeting to be held but there's only room enough for a few. A group of people can decide on one who best represents their interests from certain smaller neighborhoods around the town. It's that person that attends and voices the concerns of those they represent at the meeting. That representative doesn't have authority over those who sent him/her. How could they?

Therein lies our freedom. That's what this country is about. That concept is the very fabric of which the Constitution is based. We live in a representative government. Quite different from any government Paul ever heard of. It's at the core of our freedom, liberty. We're not ruled over. We're not subject to the representatives we vote into office to represent our concerns. Like I said, I never voted for a ruler. I never voted for an authority that I must submit to. I am not in subjugation to my representative."

 

[reba]

Another by Rick

Ruler:

http://dictionary.reference.com/
noun
a person who rules or governs; sovereign.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/
one that rules; specifically: sovereign

Key word here...
sovereign:
having unlimited power or authority
a monarch; a king, queen, or other supreme ruler.


Rulers were sovereign with unlimited power in Paul's day. His ministry was under such a government.

Our system of government is that of representatives elected by the people. A representative is not a ruler. And no, the US president is not a ruler. He is not sovereign. He is not above the law. Nor are any of his appointees. They do not have unlimited power within their departments. Nor can they. They too must operate within the law. Add to this the fact there are any number of other departments overseeing the behavior of some other department. Checks and balances.

 

[Eugene]

Dear Sister Regina, you certainly have the correct scriptures, and in Heb 13:8 we read “Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.”

Now I say this to justify Him paying taxes to Rome, an extremely sinful city. (Mat 17:25-27)

Lastly for now, God allowed Daniel to go to the Lion’s den for not obeying the king, and Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego went to the fiery furnace for not worshipping the golden image which King Nebuchadnezzar had set up? (Dan 3:14).

I will say that Jesus was with them in the furnace and they were not harmed. (Dan 3:25)

 

[th1b.taylor]

You're right about this being a hot topic and in my last attempt at this topic, in all realms, I listed the complete Nave's Study on the Topic. It is, I admit, a long study but that is because God has found Obedience an important subject and it does concern our position in Heaven.

On other forums, Christian, supposedly, I have been informed by ¿Christians? that they do not owe God a [blank] thing because they are a son of God. Actually, and contrary to what is popular to teach, our actions have great bearing on our condition in Heaven. They're actions might not affect their salvation but it definitely does affect their position in Heaven.

[Matthew 22:1-14] It is a popular teaching that all one need do to be in the Bride of the Christ is to take the name of the Christ as your own but that is not true. The Matthew Parable of the Wedding Feast is so important to our beginning to comprehend all that is involved in working out our salvation. [Philippians 2:12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;] In the parable we see the saved of mankind and there are two major groups of the Saved, the Guests and the Bride.

I am certain the members of the Bride Worked Out their Salvation by Obeying the King and it appears to me that the Guests, outnumbering the Bride, did take the LORD as their Savior but they might not have, again, I do not know, daily, worked out their salvation by Obeying God in all things to their very best.

 

[Kathi]

If the government is going against God and what is in the Bible then you go against it.

 

[Deborah13]

Go Rick !!
He has defined our form of government. It is by the people and for the people. Each one of us is a sovereign citizen of this Republic.

 

[Deborah13]

Situation A: All evangelical Christians are ordered to convert to another faith or they will be court-marshaled from the military. What is the right thing to do?
Situation B: The local law makes it illegal to provide food and shelter to the homeless. However, you are a member of a charity that provides these things. Should the charity comply?
Situation C: The gov't outlaws Christianity, as they believe that all Christians (regardless of denomination) are traitors. Do you maintain your faith even though you are branded as a traitor?
Situation D: The gov't requires that in order to prove one's loyalty and obedience to the gov't, that one must worship the president as a god. Do you violate the 1st Commandment?
Situation E: The US gov't puts into effect a law in which all people are to receive a mark on their hand or forehead in order to be able to buy/sell or basically function in society. Do you take the mark?

Situation A: All evangelical Christians are ordered to convert to another faith or they will be court-marshaled from the military. What is the right thing to do? Don''t do it.
Situation B: The local law makes it illegal to provide food and shelter to the homeless. However, you are a member of a charity that provides these things. Should the charity comply? Don't comply, unless the government starts taking care of these people.
Situation C: The gov't outlaws Christianity, as they believe that all Christians (regardless of denomination) are traitors. Do you maintain your faith even though you are branded as a traitor? Yes
Situation D: The gov't requires that in order to prove one's loyalty and obedience to the gov't, that one must worship the president as a god. Do you violate the 1st Commandment? No
Situation E: The US gov't puts into effect a law in which all people are to receive a mark on their hand or forehead in order to be able to buy/sell or basically function in society. Do you take the mark?
This one has already been implemented by the US government. It is illegal in this country to hire someone without a SSI# and a card and it is illegal for them to work without one. If one cannot get a job their ability to buy and have anything to sell has been taken away.

 

[Deborah13]

Regina, sorry everyone for posting again so soon, but I just thought of a historical example.
By law, slavery was legal in the United States. The people who ran the Underground Railroad were breaking the law in order to protect escaped black slaves.

 

[Obadiah]

A reminder to all, not necessarily directed at anyone in particular.

This is certainly a topic that should be discussed. However, in order to keep it here in the Apologetics and Theology forum as opposed to the Current Events and Politics forum, please be aware of and follow the Apologetics and Theology forum guidelines specific to this forum:

• Original posts should reference specific scripture and what it is the member wants to say or ask about that scripture.
• Subsequent opposing responses should include references to supportive scripture relevant to the thread and offer explanation for the contrary understanding.
• Opinions are plenty and have little value so please do not state positions that have no basis in scripture.
• Do not use phrases such as, “You’re wrong.” This is insulting and inappropriate and there are nicer ways to disagree without being insulting.
• Once you have made a point, refrain from flooding the forum with numerous posts making the same point over and over with nothing new to support it.
• You may ask a member questions as to what they believe on certain topics relative to the subject of the thread, but please keep in mind the member is under no obligation to answer.
• Failing to answer someone’s question doesn’t necessarily amount to an admission of error or surrender but keep in mind that in any debate if you refuse to or can not answer a reasonable question, it may weaken your position.

 

[john darling]

A group of people can decide on one who best represents their interests from certain smaller neighborhoods around the town. It's that person that attends and voices the concerns of those they represent at the meeting. That representative doesn't have authority over those who sent him/her. How could they?

It depends on what the agreement is regarding how much authority they are given to represent. Usually that means acting on your behalf through representing your vote. A representative represents a specific amount of influence when it comes to making laws which you will be expected to obey. So yes, they do have authority over you. That's what voting is about. It's possible that such representation could start off amicable enough, but over time people can change. It's not always easy to just get them out of there, especially if your opinion on the quality of representation is in the minority.

Therein lies our freedom. That's what this country is about. That concept is the very fabric of which the Constitution is based. We live in a representative government. Quite different from any government Paul ever heard of.

The Romans also lived in a republic. Paul would have been familiar with such power structures.

Our system of government is that of representatives elected by the people. A representative is not a ruler. And no, the US president is not a ruler. He is not sovereign. He is not above the law. Nor are any of his appointees. They do not have unlimited power within their departments. Nor can they. They too must operate within the law. Add to this the fact there are any number of other departments overseeing the behavior of some other department. Checks and balances.

You don't need special titles like "sovereign ruler" or unlimited power to make immoral laws worth disobeying.

If the government is going against God and what is in the Bible then you go against it.

Exactly.

 

[Obadiah]

Hi john darling and welcome to CF.NET. Please review and familiarize yourself with the forum guidelines I posted above specific for this forum. Thanks.

 

[jasonc]

one isn't court marshalled out, I hate that term. one is sentenced in a court martial that has the sentence of discharging with dishonorable service after time as usdb is served.

 

[Deborah13]

It depends on what the agreement is regarding how much authority they are given to represent. Usually that means acting on your behalf through representing your vote. A representative represents a specific amount of influence when it comes to making laws which you will be expected to obey. So yes, they do have authority over you. That's what voting is about. It's possible that such representation could start off amicable enough, but over time people can change. It's not always easy to just get them out of there, especially if your opinion on the quality of representation is in the minority.

The Romans also lived in a republic. Paul would have been familiar with such power structures.

While in 100 BC Rome was a Republic, only the citizens of Rome were allowed to vote. Paul was a citizen of Rome in 1st century AD, by then it had become an Empire, ruled by emperors.
"In Rome, Augustus was a hero. In 31 BC, he became Rome's first emperor. The transformation from republic to empire was complete."
http://www.pbs.org/empires/romans/empire/republic.html
Frankly the Rome Empire looked and ran more like a monarchy. It's hardly a picture of what we define as a Republic.
http://www.pbs.org/empires/romans/empire/emperors.html

We have a Constitution that spells out the God given rights of every person. Rome was very different. The emperors declared themselves to be gods. When the Christians refused to put the emperor above our God, they were killed.
"Christian apologists and martyrologists saw the cult of the Emperor as a particularly offensive instrument of "pagan" impiety and persecution.[1] It therefore became a focus of theological and political debate during the ascendancy of Christianity under Constantine I."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_cult_(ancient_Rome)

 

[jasonc]

if we are to resist government then its only on what is godly?if so then if the law says turn dem guns over to ze gubberment. then I guess do so. its not a god given mandate to own nor its not a mandate to not to own them.
while im pro gun rights, however, not all nations that have gun rights as we do are tyrannical. if guns rights maintain that level of freedom then where the rights and the defenders of the native americans whom lawfully and legally traded with and had land in America?

 

[john darling]

Ahh I see. Thanks for explaining that, Deborah.

 

[jasonc]

Situation A: All evangelical Christians are ordered to convert to another faith or they will be court-marshaled from the military. What is the right thing to do? Don''t do it.
Situation B: The local law makes it illegal to provide food and shelter to the homeless. However, you are a member of a charity that provides these things. Should the charity comply? Don't comply, unless the government starts taking care of these people.
Situation C: The gov't outlaws Christianity, as they believe that all Christians (regardless of denomination) are traitors. Do you maintain your faith even though you are branded as a traitor? Yes
Situation D: The gov't requires that in order to prove one's loyalty and obedience to the gov't, that one must worship the president as a god. Do you violate the 1st Commandment? No
Situation E: The US gov't puts into effect a law in which all people are to receive a mark on their hand or forehead in order to be able to buy/sell or basically function in society. Do you take the mark?
This one has already been implemented by the US government. It is illegal in this country to hire someone without a SSI# and a card and it is illegal for them to work without one. If one cannot get a job their ability to buy and have anything to sell has been taken away.

E: uhm yeah that works how well? I know illegals that have a lot money. they work. people will hire them and not think twice about it. cheap wages.

 

[Deborah13]

E: uhm yeah that works how well? I know illegals that have a lot money. they work. people will hire them and not think twice about it. cheap wages.

The point is that it is not legal to do so, either to hire or to work without an SSI # and card.

 

[WIP]

Probably should get back on topic.
When to obey/disobey gov't from a Biblical perspective.

 

[jasonc]

The point is that it is not legal to do so, either to hire or to work without an SSI # and card.

yes I understand that but to effectively enforce a law its all based on making examples, if a society doesn't care to follow any law the government is really powerless.christianity is illegal in Islamic republics, yet it thrives and so is drug use and also other things they ban.