When to obey/disobey gov't

[Malachi]

Basically, where is the line in the sand? When is it a bad idea to obey the gov't?

The line in the sand is any conflict between the goverment and God. Situations A through E are all opposed to Christ and Christianity. Therefore all must be disobeyed. Acts 4:19; 5:29 are our mandate.

 

[Deborah13]

Ahh I see. Thanks for explaining that, Deborah.

You bet.
Welcome to the forums. I really look forward to your posts. Even if some of our end time beliefs are different I see that your posts are well thought out. I appreciate that.

 

[john darling]

How about a situation where tex money is being used to fund war, but you feel it goes against your conscience to support war?

 

[Edward]

Situations A through E, being opposed to Christ and Christianity, are no-brainers and must be disobeyed. Other situations which may arise that may not be as clear cut... one should be led of the Spirit. Live for the Spirit and not for the flesh.

To disobey the world in favor of God is to set the world against you because the world is against God. You can count on that in the future and it is scriptural. No amount of worldly preparation will save you. Only total submission to God and faith in Him, that He will come through for you will. You'll only have time to draw five smooth stones from the brook when the time comes to stand up for your faith. The Spirit will tell you when.

 

[ReginaForbes]

A reminder to all, not necessarily directed at anyone in particular.

This is certainly a topic that should be discussed. However, in order to keep it here in the Apologetics and Theology forum as opposed to the Current Events and Politics forum, please be aware of and follow the Apologetics and Theology forum guidelines specific to this forum:

• Original posts should reference specific scripture and what it is the member wants to say or ask about that scripture.
• Subsequent opposing responses should include references to supportive scripture relevant to the thread and offer explanation for the contrary understanding.
• Opinions are plenty and have little value so please do not state positions that have no basis in scripture.
• Do not use phrases such as, “You’re wrong.” This is insulting and inappropriate and there are nicer ways to disagree without being insulting.
• Once you have made a point, refrain from flooding the forum with numerous posts making the same point over and over with nothing new to support it.
• You may ask a member questions as to what they believe on certain topics relative to the subject of the thread, but please keep in mind the member is under no obligation to answer.
• Failing to answer someone’s question doesn’t necessarily amount to an admission of error or surrender but keep in mind that in any debate if you refuse to or can not answer a reasonable question, it may weaken your position.

I'm wondering, should this thread be moved then? If it does fit better into another area, that's Okey dokey by me. As long as the topic can be debated.

 

[ReginaForbes]

How about a situation where tex money is being used to fund war, but you feel it goes against your conscience to support war?

Christ said "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's..." Mark 12:17
Therefore, if the gov't prints money, it is theirs to do with as they please...even if they want to take it all from you the instant you receive it.
However, since we do live in a Republic (if you're a US citizen), then you have the right to vote out those whom you feel are bad employees.
So, pay your taxes, but vote out the bums!

 

[ReginaForbes]

Regina, sorry everyone for posting again so soon, but I just thought of a historical example.
By law, slavery was legal in the United States. The people who ran the Underground Railroad were breaking the law in order to protect escaped black slaves.

That's a great one! There are many examples in the Bible and through out history where people HAD to disobey temporal powers in order to fully obey the Eternal Most High God.

 

[john darling]

Christ said "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's..." Mark 12:17
Therefore, if the gov't prints money, it is theirs to do with as they please...even if they want to take it all from you the instant you receive it.
However, since we do live in a Republic (if you're a US citizen), then you have the right to vote out those whom you feel are bad employees.
So, pay your taxes, but vote out the bums!

Yeah, the same crowd that was shouting "hosanna" one day was shouting "we have no king but Caesar" the next. It's true that Jesus said to give to Caesar what belongs to him, but he also said to give to God what belongs to God. After we've given to God what belongs to God, what is left for Caesar?

 

[WIP]

I'm wondering, should this thread be moved then? If it does fit better into another area, that's Okey dokey by me. As long as the topic can be debated.

Don't normally do this but I'd like to try and clarify this a little more right here in this forum.

The thing that we are trying to avoid is debating opinions because it eventually goes around to the point where it's a yes...no...yes...no...yes...no argument which is not beneficial for anyone and does nothing toward edifying the Body of Christ. The appropriate way to debate scriptural understanding then is to present the scripture that supports your position. I will use your last post #27 as an example. You wrote, "There are many examples in the Bible and through out history where people HAD to disobey temporal powers in order to fully obey the Eternal Most High God." This statement by itself is fine but our goal is that you would also provide the scripture where this is found so that we aren't arguing your understanding or opinion vs another member's understanding or opinion.

I hope this helps clarify our intention.

 

[Deborah13]

How about a situation where tex money is being used to fund war, but you feel it goes against your conscience to support war?

I would say that one would have to find scripture where God is against all wars. This is not about what we deem to be appropriate but what God's word actually says.
When I look at God's laws about slavery I don't see anywhere that skin color was what determined if one were a slave. Neither were families broken up by selling a parent or child to another owner. Under our laws, they were treated as mere cattle. So I am convinced that the black slavery laws in the US were unbiblical.
I don't know how to post scripture that isn't there. So if someone opposes my statement please give me the scripture that is there so that I can read it myself, thanks.

 

[john darling]

I would say that one would have to find scripture where God is against all wars. This is not about what we deem to be appropriate but what God's word actually says.

Sure, though I think you've changed the context of my comment a little bit by adding "all war". However, since we're living in the new testament now and following the teachings of Jesus I'll give a reference to support my position:
MT 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

It's hard to support a war with our enemies when we're meant to be trying to love them.

 

[jasonc]

How about a situation where tex money is being used to fund war, but you feel it goes against your conscience to support war?

uhm when jesus said render unto ceaser what is his, rome was hardly just in her wars at that time. ceaser being agustus, titus.

 

[jasonc]

Christ said "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's..." Mark 12:17
Therefore, if the gov't prints money, it is theirs to do with as they please...even if they want to take it all from you the instant you receive it.
However, since we do live in a Republic (if you're a US citizen), then you have the right to vote out those whom you feel are bad employees.
So, pay your taxes, but vote out the bums!

good luck with that. I didn't vote for Obama nor rick scott and both retained office. its not that simple

 

[john darling]

uhm when jesus said render unto ceaser what is his, rome was hardly just in her wars at that time. ceaser being agustus, titus.

Hi Jason. Sorry, I don't understand the connection you are making. Please clarify?

 

[jasonc]

Hi Jason. Sorry, I don't understand the connection you are making. Please clarify?

there is any historical command to not pay rome. did jesus say to not pay taxes , remember that matthew and zachias were saved tax collectors. it makes no sense to not to pay for things that aren't just and also work for that system when jesus gave no command to have them stop being that way. he didn't tell zachias to stop being a collector, just to collect justly.

im not saying you cant. its not mentioned there, I would have to read up on what rome was doing then and why jesus didn't address that, I know that it was the pax romana and not even 50 years after the death of Julius ceaser, mark antony was dead by then and also Cleopatra. so when agustus passed t, titus I think or his other successor was in power. they warred when they needed to. they took land and treated men like crap.

 

[Deborah13]

Sure, though I think you've changed the context of my comment a little bit by adding "all war". However, since we're living in the new testament now and following the teachings of Jesus I'll give a reference to support my position:
MT 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

It's hard to support a war with our enemies when we're meant to be trying to love them.

That is your honest view of that scripture, that it doesn't allow for self defense. I see that it doesn't negate self-defense. So we just see that differently.

 

[ReginaForbes]

Don't normally do this but I'd like to try and clarify this a little more right here in this forum.

The thing that we are trying to avoid is debating opinions because it eventually goes around to the point where it's a yes...no...yes...no...yes...no argument which is not beneficial for anyone and does nothing toward edifying the Body of Christ. The appropriate way to debate scriptural understanding then is to present the scripture that supports your position. I will use your last post #27 as an example. You wrote, "There are many examples in the Bible and through out history where people HAD to disobey temporal powers in order to fully obey the Eternal Most High God." This statement by itself is fine but our goal is that you would also provide the scripture where this is found so that we aren't arguing your understanding or opinion vs another member's understanding or opinion.

I hope this helps clarify our intention.

Whoops! Here's my examples of what I was thinking of:
Bible:
Exodus1: 15-17- Pharoah demands that the Hebrew midwives to kill all male children, but the midwives disobeyed.
Daniel 6:13- Daniel prays to the Living God eventhough there is a decree outlawing prayer.
Daniel 3:12- Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego do not worship the golden statue.
Historical:
The signing of the Declaration of Independence.
Rosa Parks refusing to move to the back.
Susan B. Anthony arrested for illegally voting.

 

[jasonc]

Whoops! Here's my examples of what I was thinking of:
Bible:
Exodus1: 15-17- Pharoah demands that the Hebrew midwives to kill all male children, but the midwives disobeyed.
Daniel 6:13- Daniel prays to the Living God eventhough there is a decree outlawing prayer.
Daniel 3:12- Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego do not worship the golden statue.
Historical:
The signing of the Declaration of Independence.
Rosa Parks refusing to move to the back.
Susan B. Anthony arrested for illegally voting.

while im for the events of july 4th 1776, that was an oppressive government doing that but its a mirace that we didn't just swap tyrants. its also odd we in America romantize our revolution when it was also brother against brother at times.

however, north Carolina and one other state declared their independence from the crown one year before the decleration.

 

[ReginaForbes]

good luck with that. I didn't vote for Obama nor rick scott and both retained office. its not that simple

Yeah, part of the problem is that the choices for candidates are terrible and that the voters are not informed. Instead it's treated like a horse race...except that the "winnings" are 4 more years of headaches.

 

[jasonc]

Yeah, part of the problem is that the choices for candidates are terrible and that the voters are not informed. Instead it's treated like a horse race...except that the "winnings" are 4 more years of headaches.

or there is no candidate the can win , we have people here that will just rotate offices. If they aren't good in the area that represents me, im not going to vote them in a higher office even if the candidate that is challenging them is worse. so I will write in. I have seen big corps and interests control people that way. they wont get my vote.