guibox said:
Well Solo, you're in a bit of a pickle then. One cannot base their entire theology on one section of scripture, especially one so full of parabolic information. The Bible must be supported and interpreted by itself and not preconceived Greek notion.
If you take away Luke 16 you take away the myriad of contradictions that Luke 16 creates. If you take away Luke 16, you have NO way to prove that 'gehenna' and 'tartaros' are in 'Hades'.
Below is some more information concerning the place of
Sheol/Hades and what it actually is. The Scriptures are plain that the soul and spirit reside in the physical body, and that after the body dies, the soul and spirit continue until the resurrection of the body and the judgment.
guibox said:
There is NO proof...nada...zip..support ANYWHERE in the Bible to support the concepts found in Luke 16 or what you and cyber are putting forth.
I find it interesting that one can ignore one of the most important teachings of the Lord in the explanation of what occurs after the body dies. Especially with such a profound explanation as Jesus gives us in Luke 16 concerning the end result of one who lives like the rich man, and one who lives like the beggar, being carried into paradise by the angels, or raising one's eyes in torment after the body dies. Only those who do not believe that the soul and body are two parts of the creation called man have a problem with this teaching.
guibox said:
The Bible doesn't just stop there...it CLEARLY lays out death, the nature of man, and the difference between the grave and the punishment at the end of time.
What you are espousing is an amalgamation of all the different types of 'hell' wrongly translated into one word 'hell' in the English. This is midieval Catholic theology and not exegeticaly study of the word of God.
The Bible proves over and over that:
The dead are not alive in 'hell' (Psalms 146:5; Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,10)
The punishment of the wicked occurs at the end of time and not at death (Matthew 13:40; 2 Peter 2:9)
The devil and his angels are not below the ground in some compartment of Hades, in a place of fiery punishment torturing sinners (1 Peter 5:8)
Everybody goes to Sheol/Hades when they die. They stay there and await resurrection (Job 14:10-14; John 5:28-29)
At the end of time, the wicked are resurrected and cast into gehenna fire (Revelation 20:5, 14-15; Matthew 13:40)
The righteous are resurrected to eternal life at the resurrection and not at our physical death (1 Corinthians 15; 2 Timothy 4:6-8; 1 Corinthians 5:1-7; Job 14:10-14)
Unfortunately, as pat and convenient it is to take Luke 16 as a contextual island and call it sound theology is ignoring the principles of biblical hermeneutics and to completely ignore what the parable was trying to teach.
Study the whole word, folks instead of one metaphorical passage.
Once again the Scriptures are plain concerning the life, death, eternal life, and everlasting punishment. It would be very difficult for me to close my eyes to the teachings of Jesus Christ that mainstream Christianity has held onto these last 2000 years.
A previous post that I have posted at
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... eol#321893 lists all of the verses of Scripture that contain the Hebrew word Sheol. Please read the remaining information of this post after praying to the Lord for wisdom and understanding so that Jesus Christ may be glorified.
Sheol is confusingly translated as grave in some of the English translations even though it does not regulate itself solely to the resting place of the body.
Sheol is never translated as tomb or sepulcher, therefore it must be understood that
Sheol is more than a hole in the ground, or a cave where dead bodies are laid. As I have outlined in the post alluded to above,
Sheol is translated 31 times as hell, 30 times as grave, and 3 times as pit in the King James Version but it is never translated as tomb or sepulcher.
Qabar is the Hebrew verb root of
qeber and
qeburah. It means “to bury†and occurs 132 times.
Very significantly, the “soul†is never said to be buried, only the body.
Qeber, a masculine noun, occurs 70 times: 35 times “grave,†28 times “sepulcher,†7 times “burying-place,†but never as “Hell.†It is significant to note, that, while the KJV translators often translated
Sheol as “grave,†they never translated qeber as “Hell.â€Â
Qeburah, a feminine noun, occurs 15 times: 5 times “grave,†5 times “sepulcher†and 5 times “burial,†but never as “Hell.†When combined,
qabar,
qeber, and
qeburah occur 275 times. While often being translated as “grave,†they are never translated as “
Hell/Sheol.†The only logical conclusion is that the translators recognized that
Sheol means much more than the present use of “grave.â€Â
Bor occurs 75 times: 33 times “pit,†23 times “well,†14 times “dungeon,†4 times “cistern,†once “fountain,†but never as “Hell.†The “pit†contains tombs and also the upper and lower chambers of
Sheol,
bor parallels
Sheol and death and contains graves and souls.
Shachat occurs 23 times: 12 times “pit,†4 times “corruption,†3 times “grave,†2 times “ditch†and 2 times “destruction.†It is a snare, or trap. The KJV never translates it as “tomb†or “sepulcher.†As “pit,†it includes the concept of
Sheol (See Ps. 16:10 and Isaiah 38:17-18).
Abaddon occurs 6 times in the Old Testament as “destruction†and once in Revelation 9:11 as
Abaddon, the angel of the bottomless pit. It is neither translated
Sheol nor the grave.
Pachat occurs 11 times: 9 times “pit,†once “snare†and once “hole.†It is neither translated
Sheol nor the grave.
Gadiysh occurs 4 times: it is a pile, heap or stack and is identical with
qeber as “tomb†in Job 21:32. It probably refers to an above-ground sepulcher.
While
Sheol is never translated as “tomb,†“sepulcher,†or “burying place,â€Â
qeber and
qeburah are the commonly accepted words for “grave.â€Â
Since other very common words were in use for “grave†and “tomb,â€Â
Sheol must have been deliberately chosen through inspiration to indicate something other than the grave.
Since
Sheol is never “tomb,†and
qeber and
qeburah are never
Sheol or
Hades/Hell, then
Sheol should never be translated as “grave.â€Â
Scripture consistently states that the soul goes to
Sheol or the pit at death, never to
qeber or
qeburah.
Old Testament translators concede that
Sheol is the only word permissible for the Greek
Hades.
What is
Hades? While the KJV translated
Sheol as “grave†in 31 of its 64 O. T. occurrences, the KJV only translated
Hades as “grave†once in its 11 N.T. occurrences – yet
Sheol and
Hades are the same in Acts 2:27 and 2:31.
However, like
Sheol,
Hades is neither the “grave†nor the â€Åof fire.â€Â
The most fundamental error of those who teach conditional immortality is their mistranslation of Hades as “grave.â€Â
Hades occurs 10 times, and is always “Hell†in the KJV. Many versions clarify by using
Hades instead of “Hell.â€Â
Gehenna is “Hell†of the “lake of fire†and occurs 22 times as “Hell.†Except for James 3:6, only Jesus used the word. It is the Hebrew word for “valley of Hinnon†transliterated into Greek.
In contrast to
qeber and
qeburah, which are often plural,
Sheol is always a singular place name.
