When will the rapture happend ? ( your quess time) =?

[JLB]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
​

To my understanding the view presented here devalues the Cross... I see the Cross as the center of all... That is just my view not saying i am right and some one else is wrong just a different view...

Seems to me the whole of the First Testament pointed to the Cross... to my thinking the Second Testament does the same..

I see Jesus as the center of all.

 

[Eugene]

As pertaining to the first resurrection, are there any that deny that those that rose in Mat 27:52 were a part of it? “And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose.”

 

[JohnD]

JLB if you believe you see the scriptures from ever angle and application possible...

Just remember the scriptures you think you got 100% do not support the Messiah Ben David / Messiah Ben Joseph doctrine, for example. The other thing to consider was resurrection as to how the Messiah who dies for others lives forever. The same is true about predestination and free will... put God's omniscient attributes in the equation and the thing is solved.

If you made up your mind to believe what you believe what you do about the scriptures you quote, I cannot change your mind. And I won't enter into such unfruitful arguments anymore. God bless.

 

[JohnD]

Jesus IS the center of it all.

 

[Brother Mike]

As pertaining to the first resurrection, are there any that deny that those that rose in Mat 27:52 were a part of it? “And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose.”

I was looking at that the other day, I went back and read again what Paul said about the body being ressurected and made new a Heavenly body.

My stance was that there was "ONE" ressurection that the dead in Christ are raised first, then bam the rest of us go and get our new body.

So, the dead and alive meet the Lord in the air and forever get to be with the Lord.

That is what I would have said for years, and certainly would have said it up until 2 weeks ago when something prompted me to look at that again.

Well, that Something is called the Holy Spirit.

1Th 4:17 kjva Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

They which are alive................ Alive.......................Alive. The dead won't be there, we catch up with them later.

This really buged me because I tried to go back and find out how to use scripture and make it ONE EVENT. Doctrines are like that, we twist scriptures to fit what we want to believe. I am just as guilty, though I always am on guard for it and will change quickly if scripture says different.

1Co 15:51-52 kjva 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

This verse sounds like there has to be a trumpet first then the dead are changed, but closer examination and the way it's written, Paul is not saying that as that is not the topic of the Greek Article. The topic is .

We Shall Not all Sleep............. (Be Dead)

The dead is raised incorruptible, Which Paul already stated the dead in Christ are raised first, but the topic is those that are alive....... We shall all be changed.

This matches what Paul Said in Thess, those that are alive are caught up with the Lord. Paul just reinerated that the dead are raised incorruptable but alive folks are changed.

Those that Jesus brought out of the grave with him, seen of many where raised incorruptible. I doubt there was a bunch of skeletons running around and the Lord is not going to make them wait.

The first ressurection is all that die in Christ from then until today. Those that rose with Jesus did not get a temporary body to just walk around in with Jesus and have to wait for a new body later.

The whole subject is "IN CHRIST" and if Your "IN CHRIST" you don't wait for some trumpet to get your new body.

I have to change some theology, but scripture beats what I want to believe.

Blessings.

 

[JLB]

As pertaining to the first resurrection, are there any that deny that those that rose in Mat 27:52 were a part of it? “And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose.”

51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split,
52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;
53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.
Matthew 27:51-52

I believe Jesus is the only One who has been resurrected from the dead, in the sense where those who are Resurrected receive immortal bodies that will never die, and will shine like the sun.

But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.
1 Corinthians 15:20-23

However the scripture from Matthew 27 clearly says "bodies", who had fallen asleep were raised.

I believe Jesus led a "procession" of these Old Testament saints to heaven when He ascended to Heaven, as these were in the heart of the earth [Abraham's Bosom or Paradise] until He was revealed to them.

8 Therefore He says: "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men."
9 (Now this, "He ascended"--what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)
Ephesians 4:8-10

There scriptures teach us clearly, that those who are His will all be resurrected at His coming....
Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.



JLB

 

[JLB]

I was looking at that the other day, I went back and read again what Paul said about the body being ressurected and made new a Heavenly body.

My stance was that there was "ONE" ressurection that the dead in Christ are raised first, then bam the rest of us go and get our new body.

So, the dead and alive meet the Lord in the air and forever get to be with the Lord.

That is what I would have said for years, and certainly would have said it up until 2 weeks ago when something prompted me to look at that again.

Well, that Something is called the Holy Spirit.

1Th 4:17 kjva Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

They which are alive................ Alive.......................Alive. The dead won't be there, we catch up with them later.

This really buged me because I tried to go back and find out how to use scripture and make it ONE EVENT. Doctrines are like that, we twist scriptures to fit what we want to believe. I am just as guilty, though I always am on guard for it and will change quickly if scripture says different.

1Co 15:51-52 kjva 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

This verse sounds like there has to be a trumpet first then the dead are changed, but closer examination and the way it's written, Paul is not saying that as that is not the topic of the Greek Article. The topic is .

We Shall Not all Sleep............. (Be Dead)

The dead is raised incorruptible, Which Paul already stated the dead in Christ are raised first, but the topic is those that are alive....... We shall all be changed.

This matches what Paul Said in Thess, those that are alive are caught up with the Lord. Paul just reinerated that the dead are raised incorruptable but alive folks are changed.

Those that Jesus brought out of the grave with him, seen of many where raised incorruptible. I doubt there was a bunch of skeletons running around and the Lord is not going to make them wait.

The first ressurection is all that die in Christ from then until today. Those that rose with Jesus did not get a temporary body to just walk around in with Jesus and have to wait for a new body later.

The whole subject is "IN CHRIST" and if Your "IN CHRIST" you don't wait for some trumpet to get your new body.

I have to change some theology, but scripture beats what I want to believe.

Blessings.

The Resurrection takes place just before the Rapture, where everyone is caught up together to be with the lord in the clouds.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.1 Thessalonians 4;16-17

...shall be caught up together with them in the clouds.

The resurrection and rapture happen together.


JLB

 

[Brother Mike]

The Resurrection takes place just before the Rapture, where everyone is caught up together to be with the lord in the clouds.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.1 Thessalonians 4;16-17

...shall be caught up together with them in the clouds.

The resurrection and rapture happen together.


JLB

Yes, "THOSE THAT REMAIN ALIVE"

they are caught up together.

Those that came out of the Ground with Jesus, had to have had their new bodies.

The issue I have is Paul does not give a timing event to what Dead in Christ is. The dead in Christ rise first.

The Dead in Christ raise first.......... Then.......... Then when?

What bodies did the dead have when they walked around with Jesus? Hard to believe they were just skeletons, or were given some temporary body.

My jury is still out on this one.

 

[Eugene]

Hi Brother Mike, good questions in my opinion, and mine are but opinions. To me, all portions of the resurrection subsequent to that part of the first resurrection in Matthew 27:52 consistent in God’s word of the dead to be raised first, and then we which are alive according to 1 Thes 4:16-17.

Next I would ask if these events are at the same time for every grouping we read of in Revelation? For instance, could the dead of Mat 27:52 be caught up 2000+ years prior to those sealed in Rev 7:3-8, and I believe to be the 144,000 of Rev 14:1? Now I’m just throwing some ideas out there, but we read of different ones of the great multitude of Rev 7:9 standing before the throne of God. Brother, they get there somehow, and their resurrection must be according to the dead first, and then them who are alive also. Different trumps? Since there is a last trump, by necessity there might be earlier trumps.

Going according to Johns description of things he saw in heaven, I can go much further into this, but let me see how this flies first.
Blessings in Christ Jesus.

 

[reba]

Thinking.... most the stories in scripture fit a pattern. Yet some things are unique . The resurrection of those at the time of Christ may be unique...

 

[Brother Mike]

Hi Brother Mike, good questions in my opinion, and mine are but opinions. To me, all portions of the resurrection subsequent to that part of the first resurrection in Matthew 27:52 consistent in God’s word of the dead to be raised first, and then we which are alive according to 1 Thes 4:16-17.

Next I would ask if these events are at the same time for every grouping we read of in Revelation? For instance, could the dead of Mat 27:52 be caught up 2000+ years prior to those sealed in Rev 7:3-8, and I believe to be the 144,000 of Rev 14:1? Now I’m just throwing some ideas out there, but we read of different ones of the great multitude of Rev 7:9 standing before the throne of God. Brother, they get there somehow, and their resurrection must be according to the dead first, and then them who are alive also. Different trumps? Since there is a last trump, by necessity there might be earlier trumps.

Going according to Johns description of things he saw in heaven, I can go much further into this, but let me see how this flies first.
Blessings in Christ Jesus.

Rev 6:10-11 kjva 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Good question Eugene. This is a whole new idea to me, but if something is not settled inside me, then it's not. I don't care about Doctrine, or which one, I just want right. Don't matter to me as it all ends well as long as it's right.

There are those under the alter of Souls. I don't know what that is. They are told to rest and wait until the others are killed and things are fullfilled.

The Ressurection just has to deal with our new body. Sown in corruptions, raised incorruptible. Just our flesh body part.

Now do those folks have to rest as in Shut up until things are finished, or do they have to actually rest with the new body they have?

We have no idea what the new body will need if anything. John even said we don't know what we will be, but we will be like Jesus at his appearing.

The dead in Christ are raised first.......... Then Paul mentions twice those that are alive but the dead are still first.

1Co 15:20-21 kjva 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

The dead are the firstfruit, since Christ is risen, then the dead is also risen just like those that came out of the grave when Jesus was first ressurected. I am sure they had their new bodies, and not just zombie looking. That would have freaked some out.

1Co 15:22-23 kjva 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Paul said there was a ORDER................ Greek means in a series or succession.

If the Firstfruits are first (The dead in Christ) then later those that are his and alive would go at his Coming.

If dead, you get your new body then.

The Greek convey's "AFTERWARD" as a waiting period or time when the alive get to join without dying.

Since this rubs what I believed by what I was always told, my jury is still out, but it looks like if you die in Christ, you don't wait on that body.

Blessings.

 

[Chopper]

Revelation 12:17 (NASB95)
17So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Revelation 13:5–10 (NASB95)
5There was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him.
6And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, that is, those who dwell in heaven.
7It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.
8All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.
9If anyone has an ear, let him hear.
10If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints.

Revelation 3:10 (NASB95)
10‘Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

Christians (the one people who refuse the mark of the beast) will be killed, hunted down and executed in a time when hiding will be the most difficult in history (technologies and the fact that no one can buy or sell without the mark). It's practical purpose (the mark of the beast) is to expose and track down Christians.

At any rate, the few Christians who survive to the near end of 3 1/2 years will be raptured out but they will be so far underground in hiding they will not be missed. In fact, IMHO, the reason the beast goes ahead with his ascent to the throne of the mercy seat in the holiest place in the temple 105 days before the rapture is because by all appearances the Church has already been exterminated.

The Bible says that the believers will be kept from the plagues to follow. It does not say how they will be. Noah and family were kept from the flood physically yet returned to the world afterward. Enoch and Elijah were translated from this world apparently into spirit since no man has yet ascended into heaven save Jesus (John 3:3). My guess (and that's all it is) is they were translated into spirit to what came to be known as Abraham's Bosom in sheol until the Spirit of Jesus (God the Word) took them to heaven post crucifixion (Ephesians 4:8-10).

Here's another of my charts.

• 

JohnD, just wanted to let you know how much I like your posts. IMO, you have presented a marvelous system of instructions with graphs and explanation. It would appear to me that you have taught your theology to others. I don't pretend to know a lot about end times although I have studied Revelation many, many times.

The one aspect of the first 3 &1/2 years of trib. that I don't believe is that there will be a pre-trib rapture. Traditional Baptist theology has taught me to believe in a pre-trib rapture, but the more I studied "end times" and how many times Scripture states that Christians will suffer persecution, I refuse to believe in that Baptist theology.

My thinking goes along with your presentation of which I honor you and the Holy Spirit Who IMO has enlightened your mind to Truth. I figure that you are not thru evaluating your position because as we study, pray for wisdom in the Scriptures, revelation can come suddenly to a teacher like you for my benefit and others....God bless you my friend with the "ways and thoughts" of our Almighty Yahweh to your heart and mind.

 

[Eugene]

Brother Mike, you said:
“The dead in Christ are raised first.......... Then Paul mentions twice those that are alive but the dead are still first.”

First of all, we may not be told explicitly their counterpoint that remain alive to be caught up together with them, but then I suppose we can attempt to put some things into play such as wondering if there were others dying throughout this present time to be added to them such as them of the Church of Smyrna in Rev 2:10. . . ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. Having the distinct privilege of being raised first at Jesus’ resurrection, can we suppose those come forth from their graves have like rewards?

Later we can get into them that will be alive to be gathered together with them.

 

[JohnD]

JohnD, just wanted to let you know how much I like your posts. IMO, you have presented a marvelous system of instructions with graphs and explanation. It would appear to me that you have taught your theology to others. I don't pretend to know a lot about end times although I have studied Revelation many, many times.

The one aspect of the first 3 &1/2 years of trib. that I don't believe is that there will be a pre-trib rapture. Traditional Baptist theology has taught me to believe in a pre-trib rapture, but the more I studied "end times" and how many times Scripture states that Christians will suffer persecution, I refuse to believe in that Baptist theology.

My thinking goes along with your presentation of which I honor you and the Holy Spirit Who IMO has enlightened your mind to Truth. I figure that you are not thru evaluating your position because as we study, pray for wisdom in the Scriptures, revelation can come suddenly to a teacher like you for my benefit and others....God bless you my friend with the "ways and thoughts" of our Almighty Yahweh to your heart and mind.

Thank you for your thoughtful post. It means a lot to me.
About end times, keep in mind the love God has for his Jewish people never ended. In the end times, what it will take to open their eyes about his dear Son their Messiah our Christ is the Great Tribulation (the second half of the 70th Week of Daniel). The Church is removed from the wrath of God in that 3 1/2 year period. Our wrath from God was dealt with on the Cross**. This is why that time period is the time of Jacob's trouble (Jeremiah 30:7).

In the first half of the 70th Week Israel will rise to prominence. When the beat betrays them and reneges on his covenant with them they will become the refuse of the earth that Christians were in the first half. And as the worlds armies close in on them in the Holy Land to (in their minds) rid the earth of them once and for all, the few who survive will cry out to Jesus as a last resort since nothing else has worked. They will cry "Hosanna!" in Hebrew hosha nah! save now. An interesting similarity to the name of Jesus in a sense hosha Yah (salvation of Yah / YHVH) for Jesus Hebrew name is Yeshua / yehoshua / YHVH shua. And he will come and save them!

Regarding the pre-mid-post rapture debate. . . now that you know the 70th week is two 3.5 year tribulations you see that all three positions are essentially correct (just not in the traditional way).

PRE great tribulation (which is last 1/2)
MID 70th week of daniel (not traditional mid-trib since mid-trib teaches a single 7-year tribulation and God's wrath on believers as well as unbelievers).
POST believer's tribulation (which is first 1/2)

The credit goes entirely to the Holy Spirit who humbles this poor teacher with his greatness and mercy. I merely set out to find out how all three traditional camps could all quote scripture to support their position. And since scripture is infallible, we mortals must have missed something. He showed me it is the 70th week itself that tradition got wrong.

2 Peter 1:20–21 (NASB95)
20But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation,
21for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

John 16:13 (NASB95)
13“But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

God bless.
______________________
** Isaiah 54:9–10 (NASB95)
9“For this is like the days of Noah to Me, When I swore that the waters of Noah Would not flood the earth again; So I have sworn that I will not be angry with you Nor will I rebuke you.

10“For the mountains may be removed and the hills may shake, But My lovingkindness will not be removed from you, And My covenant of peace will not be shaken,” Says the Lord who has compassion on you.
John 16:26–27 (NASB95)

26“In that day you will ask in My name, and I do not say to you that I will request of the Father on your behalf;

27for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me and have believed that I came forth from the Father.
Colossians 2:9–14 (NASB95)

9For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,

10and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;

11and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;

12having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

13When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,

14having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
___________________

 

[Brother Mike]

Brother Mike, you said:
“The dead in Christ are raised first.......... Then Paul mentions twice those that are alive but the dead are still first.”

First of all, we may not be told explicitly their counterpoint that remain alive to be caught up together with them, but then I suppose we can attempt to put some things into play such as wondering if there were others dying throughout this present time to be added to them such as them of the Church of Smyrna in Rev 2:10. . . ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. Having the distinct privilege of being raised first at Jesus’ resurrection, can we suppose those come forth from their graves have like rewards?

Later we can get into them that will be alive to be gathered together with them.

I don't see a reason the dead should not get their new bodies if they are in the Lord. I have no scripture to prove different, and those that came out of the grave with Jesus were not skeletons or zombies.

Paul said the body is sown in corruption, and raised incorptable.

When Jesus was raised his body was missing.

That would be my hang up on believing that we get new bodies at death and not have to wait. I don't know.

 

[Eugene]

I don't see a reason the dead should not get their new bodies if they are in the Lord. I have no scripture to prove different, and those that came out of the grave with Jesus were not skeletons or zombies.

Paul said the body is sown in corruption, and raised incorptable.

When Jesus was raised his body was missing.

That would be my hang up on believing that we get new bodies at death and not have to wait. I don't know.

I too doubt that some would be with Jesus in their new bodies, and others not. Brother, I reckon there's much we have to learn, and suspicion will become reality when we are in Jesus' presence. The things I look to are the examples of reward to certain ones as pertaining to their spiritual walk, and most of all their proximity to the throne.

 

[Brother Mike]

I too doubt that some would be with Jesus in their new bodies, and others not. Brother, I reckon there's much we have to learn, and suspicion will become reality when we are in Jesus' presence. The things I look to are the examples of reward to certain ones as pertaining to their spiritual walk, and most of all their proximity to the throne.

Scripture does say, "follow after those who through faith and patience inherit the promises."

I am not sure if God uses the old bones and decaying body. God did ask Ezeikiel if these bones can live. Then again those that came from the grave with Jesus and the dead in Christ (Firstfruit) are first in that order.

I don't know, and John did not know what we will be. We follow after those and be like Jesus.

Blessings.

 

[Chopper]

Thank you for your thoughtful post. It means a lot to me.
About end times, keep in mind the love God has for his Jewish people never ended. In the end times, what it will take to open their eyes about his dear Son their Messiah our Christ is the Great Tribulation (the second half of the 70th Week of Daniel). The Church is removed from the wrath of God in that 3 1/2 year period. Our wrath from God was dealt with on the Cross**. This is why that time period is the time of Jacob's trouble (Jeremiah 30:7).

In the first half of the 70th Week Israel will rise to prominence. When the beat betrays them and reneges on his covenant with them they will become the refuse of the earth that Christians were in the first half. And as the worlds armies close in on them in the Holy Land to (in their minds) rid the earth of them once and for all, the few who survive will cry out to Jesus as a last resort since nothing else has worked. They will cry "Hosanna!" in Hebrew hosha nah! save now. An interesting similarity to the name of Jesus in a sense hosha Yah (salvation of Yah / YHVH) for Jesus Hebrew name is Yeshua / yehoshua / YHVH shua. And he will come and save them!

Regarding the pre-mid-post rapture debate. . . now that you know the 70th week is two 3.5 year tribulations you see that all three positions are essentially correct (just not in the traditional way).

PRE great tribulation (which is last 1/2)
MID 70th week of daniel (not traditional mid-trib since mid-trib teaches a single 7-year tribulation and God's wrath on believers as well as unbelievers).
POST believer's tribulation (which is first 1/2)

The credit goes entirely to the Holy Spirit who humbles this poor teacher with his greatness and mercy. I merely set out to find out how all three traditional camps could all quote scripture to support their position. And since scripture is infallible, we mortals must have missed something. He showed me it is the 70th week itself that tradition got wrong.

2 Peter 1:20–21 (NASB95)
20But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation,
21for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

John 16:13 (NASB95)
13“But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

God bless.
______________________
** Isaiah 54:9–10 (NASB95)
9“For this is like the days of Noah to Me, When I swore that the waters of Noah Would not flood the earth again; So I have sworn that I will not be angry with you Nor will I rebuke you.

10“For the mountains may be removed and the hills may shake, But My lovingkindness will not be removed from you, And My covenant of peace will not be shaken,” Says the Lord who has compassion on you.
John 16:26–27 (NASB95)

26“In that day you will ask in My name, and I do not say to you that I will request of the Father on your behalf;

27for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me and have believed that I came forth from the Father.
Colossians 2:9–14 (NASB95)

9For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,

10and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;

11and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;

12having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

13When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,

14having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
___________________

I express praise and honor to the Holy Spirit, and you for your reply of which I receive with thanksgiving.

 

[JLB]

JLB if you believe you see the scriptures from ever angle and application possible...

Just remember the scriptures you think you got 100% do not support the Messiah Ben David / Messiah Ben Joseph doctrine, for example. The other thing to consider was resurrection as to how the Messiah who dies for others lives forever. The same is true about predestination and free will... put God's omniscient attributes in the equation and the thing is solved.

If you made up your mind to believe what you believe what you do about the scriptures you quote, I cannot change your mind. And I won't enter into such unfruitful arguments anymore. God bless.

How about entering into a fruitful discussion of the scriptures I posted, rather than completely ignoring them and condenming me.

Paul clearly and plainly shows us the Resurrection and Rapture occur together, at His Coming.

Here is the scripture that teaches us this truth.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 1 Thessalonians 4:16

The dead in Christ will be Resurrected first, then...

17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17

... the Raptured ones will be caught up together with them.


So my question would be; Where would you place this event, of His Coming and Gathering His people?



JLB

 

[JohnD]

No condemnation. JLB.
Just disinterest in arguing.
I said I say (again) God bless.