Where do we find middle ground?

[phantom309]

I started this thread in response to the drawn out conversation that was had in the post "How far should we go with enforcing sinlessness on non believers?"So,for any who wonder where we started at should refer to the latter parts of the thread.

Aardverk,to start out I appreciate the mutually respectful approach weve taken with things thus far and just wanted to point that out.Most often the topic we discussed would have rapidly devolved into pointless bickering.

One thing I would also like to discuss is the matter of right vs wrong.Not so much whos right or wrong,but specifically the act of stating whether something is right or wrong.Ive noticed in many interactions between christians and non believers that things stay relatively calm until one side specifically states the other is wrong.That just opens up Pandoras box and anything that happens from there is usually not based on respect or logic.

According to christian beliefs/the bible there are moral absolutes,as outlined in the text.As such,there are certain actions and beliefs which are wrong,and theres just no easy way to say that sometimes.I take the bible as pure,literal truth from God.As such truth is truth.And truth by definition is that which is true or in accordance with fact or reality.Understand,if you will,that this is how christians view the bible..as fact..as truth.

Truth then,by nature declares that one thing is correct while the opposite is false.Carpenters cannot use conflicting measurements,pilots cannot safely carry passengers while being given two different altitudes and surgeons must factually know one organ from the other.

Onto my real point,and the thing that I have a problem with.Why am I considered wrong or disrespectful if I state that something or someone is wrong,if in fact I believe I am correct/justified in doing so?What benefit does the other person gain,if truly wrong,for someone to be afraid to tell them that they are wrong for fear of offending them?It only hurts them.If I think there is a real and present danger associated with a persons actions or behavior,it seems more humane to me to share that with the person rather than see them come to harm.In fact,the latter just seems selfish and cruel.

I believe we have all been in that position,whether it be moral or not.At some point in life weve seen a friend or family member getting into something they dont need to.It could be drugs,gang activity,whatever random thing.We know we need to talk them and prior to doing so know that they could get mad at us for it.We willingly shoulder that burden in hopes that we can help.Sometimes it ends good,sometimes bad.But we voice it all the same.Right and wrong needs to be stated,its how we learn.

My life would be so much easier if I could sit to myself and observe the actions of others without care of how it all turned out.I do care,and it is through that respect and consideration for others that it does need to be voiced at times.In not doing so I neglect my duty as a christian,which is to try to help people see that truth and in doing so hopefully come to know God.

Now a great deal of this comes in the presentation,which you and I agree on.I cant just walk up to someone and say "Hey dummy,youre doing things backwards.",and then proceed to try to give them biblical verse for why.That wouldnt work for anyone,even if they knew right then and there I was right.At that point it just becomes a battle of wills and nothing is gained.The proper approach is to respectfully plead your position and hope for the best.

Where I take the position of being unapologetic is not to say that we should be arrogant and intentionally abrasive.There are times and places in which things are wrong and people are wrong.We should not skulk around,afraid to voice that.

There have existed in history people,who were wrong on most everything they did.Hitler is a good example.The man was directly responsible for mass carnage on a global scale.Should we have sit back and let him do his thing,afraid to tell him he was wrong or act against him for fear of offending him? Of course not.At various points Im sure people reached out to him and were shut down.Others around him knew what result his actions would have,thus the coalition of forces in a world war.This was a time when a man was absolutely wrong and it escalated to the point of military force to make him stop.I realize that this is an extreme example,but one used to illustrate the fact that there are times to stand up and fight for what you believe regardless of criticism.

We live in a time where there are many double standards placed on christians.Be "tolerant" is the mantra.But there seems to be no tolerance toward our views.The tolerance only seems to go as far as what they agree with,but when it reaches something the nonbelievers dont like the gloves come off,the names fly and the gauntlet hits the ground.Were somehow bad people for speaking up on what we believe in while the rest of civilization is somehow more enlightened for espousing their views.

What it comes down to,then,is a choice between monitoring every spoken word and action,backpeddling to cover all angles and trying to re-word every statement to somehow make it appealing to people who dont agree with many of the core concepts of our beliefs.Its an impossible task,and an unfair request to begin with.

What I propose is that at some points we just have to agree to disagree.Were not all the same,and we all have different backgrounds.I may not agree with some decisions but I dont think it sensible to needlessly argue or point fingers as a result of it.There are occasions in which one defends his ground and vice versa.

Im not using this to defend my angle and say that everyone should let me say my piece and be happy with it.Ive had people come to me throughout life with the accusation that Im wrong..some were correct,some not.Those I dont agree with are sent on their way when both plead their sides.No big deal,most times.

This is running a bit longer than intended,but Im trying to find some way explain what weve discussed so far.Let me know what you guys think.

 

[reba]

Some things are right or wrong.... We can easily confuse right or wrong with just different.

Often it is not the message but how it is presented....Some folks need a hug some a 2X4 some are in the middle....
It is very hard to be tolerant and not look wishy washy.

Is middle ground a good thing?

 

[spartakis]

Well when talking to a non believer the best thing to do is to try and lead them to Christ. As the Christian in the matter you should not act like you are any better then they are. Just saved by Grace and faith in Christ.

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: Romans 3:10
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Roman 3:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation Romans 10:9-10
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Romans 10:13


As to any conversation between non believers and believers or believers and believers as hard as it can be we should follow the below

2 Tim 2:23-26
But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

 

[Christ_empowered]

I don't think you have to be self-righteous to tell the Truth. I do believe, yes, that Christians should meet people where they are, adjust their tactics (not the message--just the tactics) to the situation and individual, and avoid being too judgmental. But the message itself (you are a sinner, you are hell-bound, Jesus loves you but has standards, too) is kind of confrontational. That's just the nature of The Good News.

But there are times, at least in my life, when you just have to say what you know to be true and right and then let the individual do what they will. I have friends with whom this is an issue. They'll have a problem--largley caused by sin--and I'll say, based on my Christian beliefs "maybe try ____? Would that work?" and I invariably get shot down. Sin blinds us to Truth and sears our consciences. A Christian friend and I had a talk about this the other day. We came to the conclusion that "sin makes you stupid," because you become blind to the sins themselves, the ill-effects they have on your life, and the more constructive alternatives available to you.

 

[Chris]

When I look at the pages of my bible they are black and white. When I look at the world it actually is shades of grey and color.

Black and white are 2 extremes and themselves pure. Grey is a mixture of black and white.

Now white is akin to holy and good while black is akin do darkness and both exist in the bible as extremes.


If I apply my bible to the world of a big mixture, it is going to be hard for me to colour match my bible to the world the way it is. There will be places that match white or black perfectly and the bible principals will apply easily and lighten the grey.

However the thread is about middle ground and unfortunately there is more grey or middle ground in our world than there is black and white.

We can never make the world fully black or fully white as it is not like that. The best we can hope for is lighten the grey one person at a time.

You have to be situation flexible and to some degree go as far as not compromising your standards or beliefs lets you go to meet halfway or more.


There is a time and place to say it how it is and I do often especially with right wrong. I pick my times and and am usually flexible and non confronting and keep my thoughts and attitudes in that grey area where most people live. Being open minded about things and honest about Christianity's anomalies and questionable things has served me well with talking about god to non Christians. If your honest about the flaws you might be honest about other things too..

I hope that makes sense, it did to me lol.

 

[Aardverk]

Aardverk,to start out I appreciate the mutually respectful approach weve taken with things thus far and just wanted to point that out.Most often the topic we discussed would have rapidly devolved into pointless bickering.

Thank you phantom; this is perhaps a good test for both of us.

You have written so much here that I can’t cover every point so I will isolate the main ones. Before I do so, I would like to quote the excellent response from ‘Christ_empowered’ which squeezed a lot of wisdom into a few words.

I don't think you have to be self-righteous to tell the Truth. I do believe, yes, that Christians should meet people where they are, adjust their tactics (not the message--just the tactics) to the situation and individual, and avoid being too judgmental. But the message itself (you are a sinner, you are hell-bound, Jesus loves you but has standards, too) is kind of confrontational.

Unfortunately my technique is rather more long-winded.

One thing I would also like to discuss is the matter of right vs wrong.Not so much whos right or wrong,but specifically the act of stating whether something is right or wrong.Ive noticed in many interactions between christians and non believers that things stay relatively calm until one side specifically states the other is wrong.

Agreed. Whoever states that the other person is wrong had better be very sure they can substantiate their allegation. The fault in your example is with the person making the allegation. Although some philosophers argue that we can each have our own truths, I do not subscribe to that notion. I believe that a fact is a fact, a belief is a belief and fact has a natural primacy over belief. Beliefs are matters of faith and faiths therefore can not exist where a particular belief is also a matter of fact. I hope I have expressed that clearly as it is one of my most basic tenets.

According to christian beliefs/the bible there are moral absolutes,as outlined in the text.As such,there are certain actions and beliefs which are wrong,and theres just no easy way to say that sometimes.I take the bible as pure,literal truth from God.As such truth is truth.And truth by definition is that which is true or in accordance with fact or reality.Understand,if you will,that this is how christians view the bible..as fact..as truth.

I understand where you are coming from. I have been reading the Bible etc for about 70 years. I try to lead my life according to what I regard as good Christian principles. I am also well aware of the dozens of weird or unpleasant things in the Bible that I do not consider appropriate or true. No one, not even you, can follow everything in the Bible. It is just not possible and it is certainly not desirable! You and I, along with everyone else, simply select what we want to believe and ignore the rest. I question enough of it that I stopped calling myself a Christian many years ago.

Now we come to the important bit. You believe that you are behaving correctly because you are following the bits of the Bible that you have chosen to follow. Other Christians belonging to hundreds of other denominations all believe things that you do not. Are they then entitled to tell you that you are wrong? Are they entitled to preach to you even if you do not want to listen? Of course they are not. Similarly, you are not entitled to preach to anyone who does not want to listen. They have their own reasons for not wanting to listen and you can not know what their reasons are. Guessing would be a gross arrogance. The best you can hope for is calm, respectful dialogue. If you can’t get that, politely walk away.

Onto my real point,and the thing that I have a problem with.Why am I considered wrong or disrespectful if I state that something or someone is wrong,if in fact I believe I am correct/justified in doing so?

Did you really mean to say that? You said, “if in fact I believe I am correct”. That is exactly the problem. Your belief does not make something a fact. If, on the basis of your belief you tell someone they’re wrong – it is actually you who is at fault. I may well agree with that particular belief but it does not make it a fact.

Where I take the position of being unapologetic is not to say that we should be arrogant and intentionally abrasive.There are times and places in which things are wrong and people are wrong.We should not skulk around,afraid to voice that.

As long as you are prepared to take the consequences… OK, that is your choice but it does depend what the subject is. If it is a ‘crime’ – good for you. If it is a ‘moral’ issue – you are on very dangerous ground as morals are man-made things. If it is a ‘sin’ issue – it is probably no business of yours at all – leave it to God.

Hitler is a good example.The man was directly responsible for mass carnage on a global scale.Should we have sit back and let him do his thing…

Hitler is actually a bad example as you will struggle to find many people as clearly evil as he was. Pol Pot is the only other one that immediately springs to mind. Clearly Hitler had to be stopped by ‘man’ as he was committing crimes against men. He was not only evil but a criminal and that is rightly a matter for men. Consider though the teachings of Luther that Hitler was ‘following’. How would you judge Luther for his intemperate condemnation of the Jews and inspiring Hitler to kill them?

We live in a time where there are many double standards placed on christians.Be "tolerant" is the mantra.But there seems to be no tolerance toward our views.

I have heard this so many times that I am amazed it keeps cropping up. Why do you expect people to be tolerant of your views if you are not tolerant of theirs? If you are trying to preach, teach, educate etc and you don’t listen to other people you will come across as arrogant and you will alienate people. Christianity has ruled the world for many centuries by force. In the past, if the heathen didn’t agree with you – just kill him or torture him and kill him! No challenges or alternative views were allowed and dissenting Christians killed each other. There was in fact no middle ground between Christians, let alone between Christians and non-Christians. There never can be, all we can hope for is calm acceptance that other people hold other beliefs.

If Jesus returns to Earth, the media will not believe it. They will regard it as a trick. He will choose to demonstrate his existence or maybe he will not. If he chooses not to demonstrate his existence but just quietly leave again, we will have exactly the situation we have today. Some people will choose to believe and some will people choose not to believe. There is no middle ground in that, all we can ask for is calm acceptance that people interpret things in different ways and believe different things. A belief is not a fact phantom.

 

[Timf]

What I propose is that at some points we just have to agree to disagree.

Does not work.

Christopher Lasch (a famous liberal who became a conservative) said that a conservative will say you are wrong and walk away. A liberal will say you are wrong and need to be fixed.

The world considers itself very flexible. If you say I agree, you are welcomed. Even if you are willing to say, everyone has their own opinion, you are tolerated. It is only when you declare truth you are castigated. The public arena is not the marketplace of ideas, it is a cul-de-sac into which Christians are drawn so that they can be made ineffective.

The question for the Christian is to what degree should we be involved with the world at all?

John 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

When we were a more Christian country, right and wrong were mostly used to describe what was true. Now that public schools have done their job and Christianity has been largely eradicated from our country, right and wrong describe how people feel. If you say anything to make someone feel bad, you are guilty of a hate crime.

Satan needed to use Christianity to advance his plans for global collectivism. Now that this work is largely done, he can discard those who helped him.

Christians do not need to "reclaim" America, they never had it. Christianity was only tolerated to deceive Christians into thinking that the world was being made Christian when in reality Christianity was being made secular.

The bait Satan used to draw Christians into his arena was the idea that Christians would build the "New Jerusalem". You can see this 100 years ago when mostly Christians marched to the drum of progressivism and the concept that the government was responsible to keep us safe and take care of the poor was established. A generation earlier 500,000 men died to establish the principal of unrestricted governmental power.

The idea that Christians have a voice in the public arena is just an illusion. We never had a voice. Only Christians walking in the flesh and advocating the ideas Satan wanted advanced were heard. Even the idea of a public arena is false, It has all been controlled by Satan all along.

With government control of the Internet just around the corner, I wonder how long we will even have the ability to "talk" to each other.

My hope is that this age is about to end and My Savior will return in glory to establish His rule.

 

[Adullam]

Being radical only works if that radicalness is of God. Otherwise we are on our own.

There are real spiritual forces arrayed against each other. To choose a middle ground is to stand in a no-man's land between these forces. Utter foolishness. Did not Jesus say that it was better to be hot or cold rather than lukewarm?

I think the issue becomes confused because of men's stubborness to hold onto A truth (not THE truth). This is usually seen as a godly zeal (though misplaced). But one who holds tenaciously to a doctrinal bent has unwittingly fallen into a rut in no man's land.

 

[phantom309]

Thanks for the input folks.

I believe Timf hit the points I was trying make pretty close.It seems that not many are willing to admit that things swing that way,but Ive seen it with it my own eyes far too many times.

Aardverk,its been fun but its plain to see that this topic will be a perpetual circle for us.Ive explained from different angles a very simple concept..sharing honest truth with people minus the paranoia of offending people.Say what you have to say and move on..if someone doesnt accept that,theres nothing more you can do.

One thing I have noticed as well is the fact that you seem to contradict yourself a bit,to be honest.This isnt a parting shot or spoken in anger,just an observation.

You speak of love,respect and tolerance,denouncing anyone who dares call another wrong but here you are telling me Im wrong for what I believe,or how I go about things.You continue to place me in this mythical role of travelling about and telling people they are wrong for some undetermined belief and repeatedly make reference of never listening to the other side..which is pretty far removed from the core of things.Its at this point I must conclude that much of your argument just stems from personal bias and/or personality conflict.

I think the common ground you truly ask for is the compromise of my beliefs in the manner of not being absolute when I speak of them.

Some belief is fact,and I think the bible is filled with it.Jesus stated that one day He will return to set things straight,and you can bank on it.You or I can disbelieve it all day,but it remains no less true.Judgement day approaches us all eventually.Some say that isnt so,but that proclamation does not render it null and void.

I dont expect all people to agree with me,in fact most wont..many of them even in the christian camps these days.I am prepared to accept the fallout for that belief as you stated,in fact I have for years.I dont hold peoples' opinions against them,believe what you will..we all have our choice in the matter.But if some want to criticize me for my belief while claiming tolerance,then let it be.

 

[Aardverk]

One thing I have noticed as well is the fact that you seem to contradict yourself a bit,to be honest.

Without any examples of 'contradictions' it is either my error or your error in understanding my words.

You speak of love,respect and tolerance,denouncing anyone who dares call another wrong

All I said was that IF you intend to tell someone they are wrong, you had better be quite sure you can prove it. If you can't, you end up looking a fool or worse. If you recall, I was trying to stop you alienating people from Christianity.

but here you are telling me Im wrong for what I believe...

No, no, no. I admire people with firmly held beliefs; especially if they can express them with skill and wisdom. I did however caution you against the more muscular approach you expressed in that other thread and I was certainly not alone in advising caution phantom! I don't know you and only have your written words by which to judge you. Please look back to that other thread and see, for example, where you accidentally(?) said that your beliefs were fact and therefore you were justified in doing what you wanted - or words to that effect. My warning was that you would alienate people.

I think the common ground you truly ask for is the compromise of my beliefs in the manner of not being absolute when I speak of them.

I have not asked for common ground phantom. Nor have I advocated middle ground or compromise. All I have ever advocated, in ALL threads is love, tolerance and respect. Whilst 'common ground' may be possible to find, it is likely to be such a wishy washy place that it is almost pointless to seek it. 'Middle ground' and 'compromise' are virtually impossible in matters of faith.

Some belief is fact,and I think the bible is filled with it.

It is beyond question that the Bible contains many, many facts. Sadly, it also contains other matters which are highly questionable - hence the number of questions raised about them. Those other matters are then matters of faith or belief. Whilst it is a truism that some beliefs are facts, we can not know which beliefs are only beliefs. Once you start thinking that ALL your beliefs are facts how do you ever change your mind or make any intelligent advance? What about people with different beliefs? Are their beliefs facts too or are all those other people wrong? Is it just YOUR beliefs that are facts?

I dont expect all people to agree with me,in fact most wont..many of them even in the christian camps these days.I am prepared to accept the fallout for that belief as you stated,in fact I have for years.I dont hold peoples' opinions against them,believe what you will..we all have our choice in the matter.But if some want to criticize me for my belief while claiming tolerance,then let it be.

That sounds absolutely fine to me, I could have written exactly the same words. :yes