R
R7-12
Guest
Nope. Only when handling the word of God. :wink:
R7-12
Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
-
Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
-
-
How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
-
R7-12
K
kephale
Guest
ttg said:
A very nice summation. Anyone choosing not to believe that Jesus' self-conception was that of God who deserves worship - even there while on the earth - is doing just that: choosing not to believe. That is your choice. It is not a wise choice.
R
R7-12
Guest
Kephale,
Let’s deal with verses that cannot be misinterpreted.
If Jesus Christ was the true God as you claim, then how can he have a God (whom he serves, worships and obeys according to Scripture) and a father (by whom he was made), as the Bible narratives clearly demonstrate?
that you may with one mind and one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 15:6, NKJV).
You love righteousness and hate wickedness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions (Psalm 45:7, cf. Hebrews 1:8-9).
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort (2 Corinthians 1:3).
The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who is blessed forever, knows that I am not lying (2 Corinthians 11:31).
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ (Ephesians 1:3).
We give thanks to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ… (Colossians 1:3a).
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ… (1 Peter 1:3a).
R7-12
That’s just your opinion based on your interpretation.
Let’s deal with verses that cannot be misinterpreted.
If Jesus Christ was the true God as you claim, then how can he have a God (whom he serves, worships and obeys according to Scripture) and a father (by whom he was made), as the Bible narratives clearly demonstrate?
that you may with one mind and one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 15:6, NKJV).
You love righteousness and hate wickedness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions (Psalm 45:7, cf. Hebrews 1:8-9).
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort (2 Corinthians 1:3).
The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who is blessed forever, knows that I am not lying (2 Corinthians 11:31).
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ (Ephesians 1:3).
We give thanks to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ… (Colossians 1:3a).
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ… (1 Peter 1:3a).
R7-12
K
kephale
Guest
God the Son (Jesus) is the "Son" to the Father, both eternally (as many Scriptures clearly declare the eternality of the Son) and temporally via the incarnation. It is basic Christian theology. Therefore, it is not improper to speak of God as the "God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ." It hearkens back - as does so much of the N.T. - to the O.T. Messianic expection of "the Son of God," not merely as we would be "a" son or daughter of God. By speaking of Jesus in the sense of His Sonship, we speak of a unique relationship He had to the Father, both eternally and temporally.
You are thinking like a (presumably) Western, English-speaking person. You need to start thinking biblically about this. Ask: what would the original hearers have understood this to mean? You'll get much closer to the answer than you now are by this approach.
I commend it to you.
You are thinking like a (presumably) Western, English-speaking person. You need to start thinking biblically about this. Ask: what would the original hearers have understood this to mean? You'll get much closer to the answer than you now are by this approach.
I commend it to you.
R
R7-12
Guest
These terms are not found in Scripture.
You mean “accepted†or “mainstream.â€Â
That is your opinion based on premises that are not found in Scripture such as those in the first quote above.
Incorrect. The prophesied one was expected to be a prophet (Matthew 21:11, Luke 24:19). He is also an Apostle of God (Hebrews 3:1). He was known as the son of God in the OT (Proverbs 30:4) who was made by his God and Father (Isaiah 45:11). Thus he was a son in the truest sense of the word and is included with all of God’s called out ones who are all sons of God.
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus (Galatians 3:26).
Before being born a man, Christ was one of many sons of God (Job 1:6, Job 2:1, Job 38:7), none of whom have life inherently as God alone has immortality (1 Timothy 6:16, 1 Timothy 1:17). Christ never had life inherent but depended upon his God and Father to grant it to him (John 5:26). When God raised him from the dead, he was raised in power as the firstborn of many brethren, thus he is our brother (Romans 8:29, 1 Corinthians 6:14) and therefore cannot be Almighty God who has no equal (Isaiah 46:9).
That’s the problem. I am thinking and approaching this from a purely Biblical perspective accepting what the Scriptures plainly say, however, your approach attempts to elevate terms or phrases to a point where they become meaningless. The term “son of God†is one example.
I commend that to you.
R7-12
K
kephale
Guest
Whether or not the term "God the Son" is found in Scripture, it is a clearly Scriptural concept given the theological reality of the eternality of the Son.
It is "basic," "accepted" and "mainstream" theology. You are free to number among the dozen who don't accept it, but there is no other theological position within Christendom, be it Protestant, Orthodox or Catholic. Perhaps your mini enclave of opponents is correct afterall. Enjoy the thought of it.
Yes, a prophet, an Apostle and many other titles. Also the "son of God," which you readily agree is an OT concept.
However, your take on Isaiah 45:11 smells quite funny.
If you take v'yitzro (his/its maker) to be "his" then your options are that it refers to Cyrus (vv. 1-7) or "him who quarrels" (v. 9) or "him who says to his father" (v. 10). If you choose "its," your options are the "heavens" (v. 8). It is quite the stretch to see Jesus there. Very odd...
You make a big deal of this:
I make a big deal of this:
Greek: ho (the) huios tou theou (Son of God)
There is a vast difference between Jesus being "the" (definite article) "Son of God" and the rest of us being "sons" of God.
Jesus responds:
He ties Himself as both "the Son of God" and the "Son of Man." You know what that means. :wink:
Let's look at this craziness:
I don't know you because I'm new around here. Perhaps you can self-identify or others who know you can tell me. I think you are a Mormon. You are starting in on some very serious "Adam God Doctrine" stuff here, but let it suffice that I dispense with your silliness.
"Sons of God"
You claim Jesus was one of those described in these verses. Nowhere in these verses you have chosen to force into service for your cause does it say this. This is a creation out of whole cloth.
"Sons of God" - as a unique group - shows up first in Genesis 6:2:
Scholars are divided over who they are. Some say angels, others say a sort of aristocratic class while others suggest the godly Sethites. I have studied this and written on it briefly. It is most likely the aristocratic class.
Consider the following:
The Ugarit King Keret is called "bin il." In the OT there are also those who dispense justice called elohim. The phrase "sons of God" in question here in Hebrew is "bineh ha'elohim." See the similarities? This is significant.
At any rate, whatever the "sons of God" were, there is NO cause to see Jesus in any of the verses you chose.
The rest of your verses are poor attempts at distinguishing Jesus from God. In effect, though I think that I have demonstrated to the fair mind that I could dispense easily enough with your bad theology, I find that I have wasted entirely too much time already on you - most likely a Mormon.
You are free to learn from what I have already offered or you can accept them as the thrown pearls they will have become.
It is "basic," "accepted" and "mainstream" theology. You are free to number among the dozen who don't accept it, but there is no other theological position within Christendom, be it Protestant, Orthodox or Catholic. Perhaps your mini enclave of opponents is correct afterall. Enjoy the thought of it.
R7-12 said:
Yes, a prophet, an Apostle and many other titles. Also the "son of God," which you readily agree is an OT concept.
However, your take on Isaiah 45:11 smells quite funny.
If you take v'yitzro (his/its maker) to be "his" then your options are that it refers to Cyrus (vv. 1-7) or "him who quarrels" (v. 9) or "him who says to his father" (v. 10). If you choose "its," your options are the "heavens" (v. 8). It is quite the stretch to see Jesus there. Very odd...
You make a big deal of this:
I make a big deal of this:
Greek: ho (the) huios tou theou (Son of God)
There is a vast difference between Jesus being "the" (definite article) "Son of God" and the rest of us being "sons" of God.
Jesus responds:
He ties Himself as both "the Son of God" and the "Son of Man." You know what that means. :wink:
R7-12 said:
Let's look at this craziness:
I don't know you because I'm new around here. Perhaps you can self-identify or others who know you can tell me. I think you are a Mormon. You are starting in on some very serious "Adam God Doctrine" stuff here, but let it suffice that I dispense with your silliness.
"Sons of God"
You claim Jesus was one of those described in these verses. Nowhere in these verses you have chosen to force into service for your cause does it say this. This is a creation out of whole cloth.
"Sons of God" - as a unique group - shows up first in Genesis 6:2:
Scholars are divided over who they are. Some say angels, others say a sort of aristocratic class while others suggest the godly Sethites. I have studied this and written on it briefly. It is most likely the aristocratic class.
Consider the following:
The Ugarit King Keret is called "bin il." In the OT there are also those who dispense justice called elohim. The phrase "sons of God" in question here in Hebrew is "bineh ha'elohim." See the similarities? This is significant.
At any rate, whatever the "sons of God" were, there is NO cause to see Jesus in any of the verses you chose.
The rest of your verses are poor attempts at distinguishing Jesus from God. In effect, though I think that I have demonstrated to the fair mind that I could dispense easily enough with your bad theology, I find that I have wasted entirely too much time already on you - most likely a Mormon.
You are free to learn from what I have already offered or you can accept them as the thrown pearls they will have become.
jgredline
Member
kephale said:
Kep
Welcome to the Jungle.
R7 calls himself a subordinate unitarian.
I really can't figure him out. I thought he was a morman, a JW, a New Ager, a follower of Oprah, a universalist and I still can't figure him out. This I do know.
He believes Jesus is not god, but a created angel. no trinity. Thats all I know about him. Oh and a false teacher.
Blessings to you.
jg
K
kephale
Guest
Well, not only is he a false teacher, but a badly misinformed one, as well, as is evidenced by the poor choice of Scriptures about which he just doesn't understand.
W
Wandert
Guest
Luke 23:70
"They all asked, 'are you then the Son of God?'
He [Jesus] replied, "you are right in saying I am.'"
This is quite an obvious labeling, I feel it is rather naive to say it means anything other than what it is suggesting. I'm not going to say you can't think your way around it -- you can -- but the whole of Jesus' teachings were rather "reflective."
I refer you to Philippians 2:5-11, which describes the sort of "human" nature of Christ. He did not openly label Himself as the Son of God, because He still felt Himself a servant. He did not wish to glorify Himself, but rather through Himself glorify God.
It is less notably Jesus' life which defines Him as the savior, but more His death and ressurection. This has always been a key element to Christianity. The time between His birth and death were times where He was . . . basically trying to set up the new "religion."
We being sinful by nature, and Christ Holy by nature, we are not the same. Yet, we follow, as He followed. Christ equated Himself as a man, in order to lead us towards God. I would expect between His miraculous birth, death, and ressurection, He would display a fellowship with mankind -- equating Himself with us, reaching out to us. Trying to pull us up with Him.
For His humble nature, we glorify Him. He did not come to be "something" in this world, but to have no status. Not by our standards, but Heavenly standards. It is by this Heavenly status we recognize Him.
FYI - I hope that isn't confusing, honestly, I'm kind of out of it.
"They all asked, 'are you then the Son of God?'
He [Jesus] replied, "you are right in saying I am.'"
This is quite an obvious labeling, I feel it is rather naive to say it means anything other than what it is suggesting. I'm not going to say you can't think your way around it -- you can -- but the whole of Jesus' teachings were rather "reflective."
I refer you to Philippians 2:5-11, which describes the sort of "human" nature of Christ. He did not openly label Himself as the Son of God, because He still felt Himself a servant. He did not wish to glorify Himself, but rather through Himself glorify God.
It is less notably Jesus' life which defines Him as the savior, but more His death and ressurection. This has always been a key element to Christianity. The time between His birth and death were times where He was . . . basically trying to set up the new "religion."
We being sinful by nature, and Christ Holy by nature, we are not the same. Yet, we follow, as He followed. Christ equated Himself as a man, in order to lead us towards God. I would expect between His miraculous birth, death, and ressurection, He would display a fellowship with mankind -- equating Himself with us, reaching out to us. Trying to pull us up with Him.
For His humble nature, we glorify Him. He did not come to be "something" in this world, but to have no status. Not by our standards, but Heavenly standards. It is by this Heavenly status we recognize Him.
FYI - I hope that isn't confusing, honestly, I'm kind of out of it.
R
Rick W
Guest
John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
How could Christ be be an event or be an idea of a future event?
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
How could he be truth? It's also facinating to notice the timing of the question Pilate asked of Christ, "What is truth?" when truth was standing there before him about to be crucified.
Spiritual existance doesn't have to follow our terms of what we percieve as existing. All this is the love of God to sinful man. Jesus is the love of God in the flesh, He is the Word incarnate, made flesh. The love from God indeed is God for we know God is love, God is spirit.
Is the love I have for someone me? If my love for my wife were to be transformed into a pyhsical existance wouldn't that existance be me? And though that love would be from me, sent from me, it is still me regardless how one cares to view it. The Word is God's expression of His love to us. We can not be worthy to go to God, therefore God came to us in Word, in Love, in spirit, in Christ, in the flesh. Christ IS the embodiment of God's love. That love IS the ressurection. That love IS the way, the truth and the life.
How could Christ be be an event or be an idea of a future event?
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
How could he be truth? It's also facinating to notice the timing of the question Pilate asked of Christ, "What is truth?" when truth was standing there before him about to be crucified.
Spiritual existance doesn't have to follow our terms of what we percieve as existing. All this is the love of God to sinful man. Jesus is the love of God in the flesh, He is the Word incarnate, made flesh. The love from God indeed is God for we know God is love, God is spirit.
Is the love I have for someone me? If my love for my wife were to be transformed into a pyhsical existance wouldn't that existance be me? And though that love would be from me, sent from me, it is still me regardless how one cares to view it. The Word is God's expression of His love to us. We can not be worthy to go to God, therefore God came to us in Word, in Love, in spirit, in Christ, in the flesh. Christ IS the embodiment of God's love. That love IS the ressurection. That love IS the way, the truth and the life.
A
AHIMSA
Guest
The title Son of God does not mean God in the flesh. The Gospels and letters written before John speak of Jesus as God's image on earth, his messiah, his annointed representative but they do not speak of him as God itself. This is left to Johannine thought, which is largely in contrast to the other gospels.
S
Soma-Sight
Guest
Jesus Christ is God incarnate.... Period.
Jesus Christ IS God.....
Read the first chapter of the Gospel of John and you will see that Christ IS the Word made flesh and is the Alpha and Omega.
THE MOST BASIC AND FUNDAMENTAL BELIEF THAT ALL CHRISTIANS SHARE IS THE FACT THAT JESUS CHRIST IS GOD.
Anything less than this is a falsehood and not in line with the Word of God or the Truth of who Jesus IS.
Jesus Christ is most definitely God. He created Adam and Eve, the first man and woman, in his image. He is the Creator of the universe. The Bible says, "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made" (John 1:3). This includes all the stars, all the original animals and plants, and even the angels (Colossians 1:15-17).
It is important not be confused. God did not create Jesus. Jesus is God, and he has always existed.
Jesus proved that he is God by doing many things that only God could do. These are called miracles. He made dead people alive. He walked across a great lake. He made blind eyes see perfectly again. He healed deadly diseases with a word.
http://www.christiananswers.net/kids/ed ... orman.html
R
Rick W
Guest
AHIMSA said:
He has other titles too.
Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Can you separate the love of God from the Christ?
D
D46
Guest
AHIMSA said:
Are you suggesting John's gospel has no relevance to the Scriptures? Do you know for sure Matthew was written before John or that Luke was written after Mark?
John 20:28-29 (KJV) And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Did Jesus rebuke Thomas for calling him God? Doesn't appear to be that way. From what I read in this text, we are blessed because we HAVEN'T seen, yet believe.
Acts 7:59 (KJV) And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
And what of the temptation of Christ in Matthew 4:7...
Matthew 4:7 (KJV) Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
...or the conception and birth of Christ in Matthew 1:21-23...
Matthew1:21-23 (KJV) And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Jesus was chastised by the Pharisees for claiming to be God...
Mark 2:5-7 (KJV) When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee. But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts, Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?
Was Jesus a heretic in forgiving sins? Did he blaspheme ? If he wasn't God, how could sins be forgiven? Luke records the same instance...
Luke 5:21 (KJV) And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?
Isaiah 42:8 (KJV) I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
Isaiah 48:11 (KJV) For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.
Seems a bit of "sharing" here if Jesus is not God.
A
AHIMSA
Guest
First of all, the common misconception that "Son of God" means that Jesus is God has to be wiped. Especially in the times in which the gospels were written, Son of God was a Davidic title that the Jews used to refer to one who was uniquely in God's favor.
If we stick to the synoptics and Paul, one struggles to see Jesus as God, as opposed to an agent of the divine, or unique messenger. We'll begin with Paul.
To Paul, for example, the Risen Jesus was a cosmic figure that had risen to the heavenly planes. His resurection is what declared him him to be the Christ and his ministry begins with his resurrection. Note "regarding his Son, who as to his human nature, was a descendent of David and who through the Spirit of holiness was delcared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead; Jesus Christ our Lord" Rom. 1:2
This is why Paul virtually speaks solely of the Risen Christ and not the Jesus that walked the earth. In his new spiritual body, Jesus was certainly "larger" or greater than any human being because he was in the spiritual body. "The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable, it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory (the glory of Christ?) It is sown a natural body but is raised a spiritual body." 1 Corinthians 15:44
Paul calls Jesus the "last Adam". This in itself is a semi-admission of Jesus' humanity. The name Adam is related to "from the ground" and is often used interchangably with the word "man". "The first Adam became a living being, the last Adam (Jesus) became a life giving spirit"Jesus becomes a life giving spirit, notably "through his resurrection from the dead".
Paul constantly notes that Jesus' resurrection is a gaurantee of our own. The resurrection is clearly a spiritual or cosmic event. It is not physcial, but arises from the physical. Paul's spiritual vision of Jesus on Damascus is never contrasted with the encounter of the Risen Christ by the disciples in his letters. We can infer that Paul's vision of Christ is the resurrected Christ as he appeared to all in his resurrection. Note Paul's disclosure of a mystery, that we will "all be changed" and that the "dead will be raised imperishable" (clearly the spiritual)...note that "flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Corin. 15:50). Paul is fundamentally in tension with the Gospel's idea of a physcially resurrected Jesus.
Jesus is the first among the resurrected. His resurrection is a sign, a guarantee of our own. He is the first fruits of the resurrection. Jesus, now in his spiritual body, having entered the Kingdom of God, having swallowed up death, is the Christ who will return to bring back all believers into what he himself has achieved. For what he has done, he "sits at the right hand of God" the highest place of honor. He is God's Son, as the one upon whom unique favor has been bestowed.
Before we move to the Gospels, lets examine the message of Paul by itself. I don't think one can disprove, with his own writings, that Jesus' resurrection was spiritual and cosmic and a gaurantee of our own comsic and spiritual resurrection. This is the crux of his message, and in it lies no claim of Godhood.
If we stick to the synoptics and Paul, one struggles to see Jesus as God, as opposed to an agent of the divine, or unique messenger. We'll begin with Paul.
To Paul, for example, the Risen Jesus was a cosmic figure that had risen to the heavenly planes. His resurection is what declared him him to be the Christ and his ministry begins with his resurrection. Note "regarding his Son, who as to his human nature, was a descendent of David and who through the Spirit of holiness was delcared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead; Jesus Christ our Lord" Rom. 1:2
This is why Paul virtually speaks solely of the Risen Christ and not the Jesus that walked the earth. In his new spiritual body, Jesus was certainly "larger" or greater than any human being because he was in the spiritual body. "The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable, it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory (the glory of Christ?) It is sown a natural body but is raised a spiritual body." 1 Corinthians 15:44
Paul calls Jesus the "last Adam". This in itself is a semi-admission of Jesus' humanity. The name Adam is related to "from the ground" and is often used interchangably with the word "man". "The first Adam became a living being, the last Adam (Jesus) became a life giving spirit"Jesus becomes a life giving spirit, notably "through his resurrection from the dead".
Paul constantly notes that Jesus' resurrection is a gaurantee of our own. The resurrection is clearly a spiritual or cosmic event. It is not physcial, but arises from the physical. Paul's spiritual vision of Jesus on Damascus is never contrasted with the encounter of the Risen Christ by the disciples in his letters. We can infer that Paul's vision of Christ is the resurrected Christ as he appeared to all in his resurrection. Note Paul's disclosure of a mystery, that we will "all be changed" and that the "dead will be raised imperishable" (clearly the spiritual)...note that "flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Corin. 15:50). Paul is fundamentally in tension with the Gospel's idea of a physcially resurrected Jesus.
Jesus is the first among the resurrected. His resurrection is a sign, a guarantee of our own. He is the first fruits of the resurrection. Jesus, now in his spiritual body, having entered the Kingdom of God, having swallowed up death, is the Christ who will return to bring back all believers into what he himself has achieved. For what he has done, he "sits at the right hand of God" the highest place of honor. He is God's Son, as the one upon whom unique favor has been bestowed.
Before we move to the Gospels, lets examine the message of Paul by itself. I don't think one can disprove, with his own writings, that Jesus' resurrection was spiritual and cosmic and a gaurantee of our own comsic and spiritual resurrection. This is the crux of his message, and in it lies no claim of Godhood.
D
D46
Guest
Do you really expect anyone to take your synopsis of the gospels as fact when you serve "another Christ"? By your own admission...
I'm not sure what that means but in relevance to your unrepented lifestyle I hardly think you can guide anyone into any truth. The fact is, Jesus is God and if anyone doesn't accept that, they are denying the very basics of Christianity.
I'm not sure what that means but in relevance to your unrepented lifestyle I hardly think you can guide anyone into any truth. The fact is, Jesus is God and if anyone doesn't accept that, they are denying the very basics of Christianity.
A
AHIMSA
Guest
As much as you would like this to be, this is not about me. The argument I have just put forward, thoroughly supported by the writings of St. Paul himslef, do not hinge on my own personal issues.
If you wan't credibility, confront the content of my argument, not my personal life.
A
AHIMSA
Guest
This is why this conversation is going nowhere. We're not discussing John at this point. Lets BEGIN with the Apostle Paul and his message and see if it actually resonates or dissonates with the gospels.
R
Rick W
Guest
Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Revelation 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive forevermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
I am he that liveth, and was dead
So saying this we know it was Christ referring to His resurrection. He then is as He claims, "I am the first and the last"
Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Revelation 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Revelation 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Whoever said "I am Alpha and Omega"..."the beginning and the end"... "the first and the last." claims to be all three.
Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
Isaiah 48:12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.
Isaiah 41:4 Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.
Jeremiah 24:7 And I will give them a heart to know me, that I am the LORD: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.
Note the use of all caps in "LORD" in the above 4 verses.
So who then will be our God?
Who indeed IS the first and the last? Who IS the beginning and the end? Who IS the alpha and the omega?
Quite a bit I'd say. :o
Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Revelation 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive forevermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
I am he that liveth, and was dead
So saying this we know it was Christ referring to His resurrection. He then is as He claims, "I am the first and the last"
Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Revelation 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Revelation 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Whoever said "I am Alpha and Omega"..."the beginning and the end"... "the first and the last." claims to be all three.
Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
Isaiah 48:12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.
Isaiah 41:4 Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.
Jeremiah 24:7 And I will give them a heart to know me, that I am the LORD: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.
Note the use of all caps in "LORD" in the above 4 verses.
So who then will be our God?
Who indeed IS the first and the last? Who IS the beginning and the end? Who IS the alpha and the omega?
D46 said:
Quite a bit I'd say. :o