Where Is The Church Of Jesus Christ At According To The Bible ??

[ageetonyagee]

It's first among people agreeing with what God have to say about all the
bible today----Amos 3:3.

Notice I said agreeing with God----Romans 3:1-4.

Agreeing with man is a filthy rag-----Isaiah 64:6.

That mean believers should know each other when it's time to know what people are with John 3:5--------1 Thess. 5:12 and John 8:31.

That mean believers should know each other when it's time to know what people are with Hebrews 4-------1 Thess. 5:12 and 2 Cor. 6.

That mean believers should know each other when it's time to know what people are with 1 Peter 3:3-------1 Thess. 5:12 and 2 Timothy 3:16 and Titus 3:10.

That mean believers should know each other when it's time to know what people are with 1 Timothy 2:9-14-----1 Thess. 5:12 and John 8:31 and Amos 3:3.

That mean believers should know each other when it's time to know what people are with 1 Timothy 6-----Matthew 4:4 and 1 Thess. 5:12.

That mean believers should know each other when it's time to know what people are with Luke 3:14------Luke 4:4 and 1 Thess. 5:12.

That mean believers should know each other when it's time to know what people are with 2 Peter 1:20-21------1 Thess. 5:12 and John 5:39.

That mean believers should know each other when it's time to know what people are with Romans 6:1------1 Thess. 5:12 and John 8:31.

Christianity is way more than a everybody invited meeting place--Amos 3:3.

Christianity is way more than I'm good enough with my common sense once I declare my blood boasting testimony----Romans 6:1 and Isaiah 64:6.

No relationship in Christ for anybody mocking John 3:5----Romans 3:1-4.

No accepting Christ mocking Hebrews 4----Romans 3:1-4.

No blood bought testimony for a Romans 6:1 mocker----Romans 3:1-4.

Tell anybody the Holy Spirit said so-----John 6:63.

Christianity is way more then a failure confession to be saved---1 John 1:9.

Nothing philosophical about Christianity except Jesus----Colossians 2:8 and
1 John 2:27.

Christianity is way more then a speak and think positive
religion----Luke 6:26 and Matthew 10:22.

Christianity is way more then a believe in God for everything
religion----Romans 12:3 and 1 Cor. 8:2.

Christianity is way more then a everybody in heaven religion cause we prayed the prayer of faith----John 17 and 2 Cor. 6 and Amos 3:3 and Psalms 133:1 and John 8:44 and Titus 3:10 and 2 Cor. 4:3 and Matthew 7:6.

 

[Scotth1960]

It's first among people agreeing with what God have to say about all the
bible today----Amos 3:3.

Notice I said agreeing with God----Romans 3:1-4.

Agreeing with man is a filthy rag-----Isaiah 64:6.

That mean believers should know each other when it's time to know what people are with John 3:5--------1 Thess. 5:12 and John 8:31.

That mean believers should know each other when it's time to know what people are with Hebrews 4-------1 Thess. 5:12 and 2 Cor. 6.

That mean believers should know each other when it's time to know what people are with 1 Peter 3:3-------1 Thess. 5:12 and 2 Timothy 3:16 and Titus 3:10.

That mean believers should know each other when it's time to know what people are with 1 Timothy 2:9-14-----1 Thess. 5:12 and John 8:31 and Amos 3:3.

That mean believers should know each other when it's time to know what people are with 1 Timothy 6-----Matthew 4:4 and 1 Thess. 5:12.

That mean believers should know each other when it's time to know what people are with Luke 3:14------Luke 4:4 and 1 Thess. 5:12.

That mean believers should know each other when it's time to know what people are with 2 Peter 1:20-21------1 Thess. 5:12 and John 5:39.

That mean believers should know each other when it's time to know what people are with Romans 6:1------1 Thess. 5:12 and John 8:31.

Christianity is way more than a everybody invited meeting place--Amos 3:3.

Christianity is way more than I'm good enough with my common sense once I declare my blood boasting testimony----Romans 6:1 and Isaiah 64:6.

No relationship in Christ for anybody mocking John 3:5----Romans 3:1-4.

No accepting Christ mocking Hebrews 4----Romans 3:1-4.

No blood bought testimony for a Romans 6:1 mocker----Romans 3:1-4.

Tell anybody the Holy Spirit said so-----John 6:63.

Christianity is way more then a failure confession to be saved---1 John 1:9.

Nothing philosophical about Christianity except Jesus----Colossians 2:8 and
1 John 2:27.

Christianity is way more then a speak and think positive
religion----Luke 6:26 and Matthew 10:22.

Christianity is way more then a believe in God for everything
religion----Romans 12:3 and 1 Cor. 8:2.

Christianity is way more then a everybody in heaven religion cause we prayed the prayer of faith----John 17 and 2 Cor. 6 and Amos 3:3 and Psalms 133:1 and John 8:44 and Titus 3:10 and 2 Cor. 4:3 and Matthew 7:6.

Friends, Wherever the true Gospel of God in Christ is preached, and the true sacraments (holy mysteries) rightly administered, there is the Church. There may be many true local churches in your little town, or your big city. Don't let people preach anything false to you. Search the Scriptures daily, to see whether or not what any man preaches is so.
Scott Harrington Erie PA

 

[ageetonyagee]

Friends, Wherever the true Gospel of God in Christ is preached, and the true sacraments (holy mysteries) rightly administered, there is the Church. There may be many true local churches in your little town, or your big city. Don't let people preach anything false to you. Search the Scriptures daily, to see whether or not what any man preaches is so.
Scott Harrington Erie PA

The heart of the matter is knowing people in the bible enough---John 8:31.
We just assume a blood boaster is a Christian----Romans 6:1.
We just assume nice Sally delivered from being a drunk is a
Christian----Matthew 7:22-23.

This knowing people in the book enough is our religion if we're a
Christian---1 Thess. 5:12 and 2 Timothy 3:16.

Anybody among us mocking anything in the bible is not our brethren in
Christ---John 8:31 and 2 Cor. 6.

Tell anybody the Holy Spirit said so----John 6:63.

What we can say about it in the flesh is a filthy rag----Isaiah 64:6.

 

[JamesG]

.

“Where is the Church of Jesus Christ according to the Bible?”


You’re looking for the wrong thing. The Church according to the Bible doesn’t exist. There are only Churches according to Christianity. If you’re looking for a Church with a name that includes Jesus Christ, or Jesus, or Christ, in it, there are many.

The word “Church” is something totally of Christianity. It is a term with its own derivation and meaning. The New Testament writers only wrote of the “ekklesia” as they existed in the first century. The Greek word “ekklesia” has its own derivation and meaning that is different from the word “Church”. There is no English word that corresponds to the Greek word “ekklesia”. Thus the best translation is a transliteration....ekklesia. They were local expressions that were called out of cities by God. They were local in nature being associated with cities. They had no distinctive names like the Churches of Christianity. They were only distinguished by the city in which they existed. The organizations called Churches that you see today are organizations that developed historically after the first century. They are universal in organization. Even those Churches that claim to be autonomous are universal within their claim of autonomy. All denominations of Christianity are organizations that are united by a doctrinal standard, usually written, sometimes oral.

If you are seeking the Churches that are the ultimate conclusion to the Protestant Movement, these would be the Reversionist Churches like the Churches of Christ that follow the teachings of Alexander Campbell, or the most recent such denomination, the Lord’s Recovery churches that follow the teachings of Witness Lee. If you are looking for a Church with a long history, consider the Orthodox Church or the Roman Catholic Church. They each have histories going back at least to the eleventh century. That is five hundred years or more prior to any Protestant Church.

Ekklesia still exist today in every city wherein those who are in Christ reside. But they are unseen because there are currently no meetings of the ekklesia. They are unseen because the current understandings of the Bible are according to the interpretations of men. They are unseen because of the denominational thinking that permeates Christianity. Those who are in Christ have been deceived into thinking that the denomination of Christianity to which they belong is the True Church or the closest thing to it on the earth today. They think that the meetings of their own denomination are synonymous with the meetings of the ekklesia. How can they see the difference between Church and ekklesia if they don’t even know there is suppose to be a difference? Their ignorance is perpetuated by the English translations that translate the Greek word ekklesia with the English word Church.

So if all you are looking for is the True Church, you can take your pick. Because all the denominations of Christianity think they are the true Church of Jesus Christ. Even if they don’t say it in exactly those words, they say it by their distinct names, their distinct nature and existence.

If you are looking for the ekklesia that the first century believers were a part of, the ekklesia that the New Testament writers wrote about, the ekklesia that still exists today, but is invisible due to the ignorance of those who are in Christ, that is something different.

JamesG

 

[Alabaster]

The Bible is clear about who the true Church is. It is the sum total of all Christ-followers in the world, past, present and future. It is known as His Body.

Ephesians 1:23 NLT 23 And the church is his body; it is made full and complete by Christ, who fills all things everywhere with himself.

Ephesians 4:11-12 NLT
Now these are the gifts Christ gave to the church: the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, and the pastors and teachers. Their responsibility is to equip God’s people to do his work and build up the church, the body of Christ.

 

[Scotth1960]

It's first among people agreeing with what God have to say about all the
bible today----Amos 3:3.

Notice I said agreeing with God----Romans 3:1-4.

Agreeing with man is a filthy rag-----Isaiah 64:6.

That mean believers should know each other when it's time to know what people are with John 3:5--------1 Thess. 5:12 and John 8:31.

That mean believers should know each other when it's time to know what people are with Hebrews 4-------1 Thess. 5:12 and 2 Cor. 6.

That mean believers should know each other when it's time to know what people are with 1 Peter 3:3-------1 Thess. 5:12 and 2 Timothy 3:16 and Titus 3:10.

That mean believers should know each other when it's time to know what people are with 1 Timothy 2:9-14-----1 Thess. 5:12 and John 8:31 and Amos 3:3.

That mean believers should know each other when it's time to know what people are with 1 Timothy 6-----Matthew 4:4 and 1 Thess. 5:12.

That mean believers should know each other when it's time to know what people are with Luke 3:14------Luke 4:4 and 1 Thess. 5:12.

That mean believers should know each other when it's time to know what people are with 2 Peter 1:20-21------1 Thess. 5:12 and John 5:39.

That mean believers should know each other when it's time to know what people are with Romans 6:1------1 Thess. 5:12 and John 8:31.

Christianity is way more than a everybody invited meeting place--Amos 3:3.

Christianity is way more than I'm good enough with my common sense once I declare my blood boasting testimony----Romans 6:1 and Isaiah 64:6.

No relationship in Christ for anybody mocking John 3:5----Romans 3:1-4.

No accepting Christ mocking Hebrews 4----Romans 3:1-4.

No blood bought testimony for a Romans 6:1 mocker----Romans 3:1-4.

Tell anybody the Holy Spirit said so-----John 6:63.

Christianity is way more then a failure confession to be saved---1 John 1:9.

Nothing philosophical about Christianity except Jesus----Colossians 2:8 and
1 John 2:27.

Christianity is way more then a speak and think positive
religion----Luke 6:26 and Matthew 10:22.

Christianity is way more then a believe in God for everything
religion----Romans 12:3 and 1 Cor. 8:2.

Christianity is way more then a everybody in heaven religion cause we prayed the prayer of faith----John 17 and 2 Cor. 6 and Amos 3:3 and Psalms 133:1 and John 8:44 and Titus 3:10 and 2 Cor. 4:3 and Matthew 7:6.

Wherever two or more true Christians are gathered in the name of Christ, there is a Christian Church. He has many many people in churches all over the world, from America to Russia to Greece to Japan to China to Spain to Romania to Finland to Ireland to England and Scotland to Ethiopia to Egypt to Syria and Lebanon to Armenia and all the other many nations of the world, there are Christians in virtually every nation under the sun. Many Christians die and suffer for the name of Christ.

 

[Alabaster]

Wherever two or more true Christians are gathered in the name of Christ, there is a Christian Church.

Nowhere does God say this. That is a convenient notion that people use to assuage their consciences for forsaking local church membership. It isn't true.

 

[JamesG]

.

Alabaster

The two verses that you quote are in this context:

Ephesians 1:1 NLT

“This letter is from Paul, chosen by the will of God to be an apostle of Christ Jesus. I am writing to God’s holy people in Ephesus, who are faithful followers of Christ Jesus.”

I don't much care for the NLT. But in this case, verse one at least does get the point across. The context is not that the church is "the sum total of all Christ-followers in the world, past, present and future. It is known as His Body" That is the idea that is common in Christianity today. The ekklesia are only related to cities in the New Testament. The context of every verse that mentions the ekklesia in Ephesians is related to the ekklesia in Ephesus.

The Greek term ekklesia is translated in just about every English translation by the English word Church. The English word Church comes from a Greek phrase that means God’s House. The Greek word ekklesia was originally a secular term that referred to a group of people called out of a city population to attend to the affairs of that city, something like an American city council. The New Testament writers used this term to refer to a group of people called out of a city population by God to attend to the affairs of God in that city. There is no universal aspect of the term ekklesia. The two terms, the Greek term ekklesia and the English word Church have two different sources and two different meanings. You have to note contexts to see this. It is difficult to see in an English translation, but not impossible.

You have to see that most English translations have been influenced by a particular mindset that thinks that Church and ekklesia are synonymous. They would not translate the Greek word ekklesia with the English word Church otherwise. The idea comes out of the Western Church as it existed in the sixteenth century. It is a mindset that has never left Protestantism. That is why each denomination of Protestantism is as self contained as is the denomination that calls itself the Roman Catholic Church.

I started a thread on the interdenominational practice of closed communion. No one responded to that thread, which is not only revealing, but very significant. This practice is related to the denominational thinking that permeates Christianity, and especially to those denominations that believe themselves to be expressions of the One True Church or expressions of the true Biblical faith, which pretty much includes them all.

The basis for denominational thinking is two-fold. First, that the historically developed Church and the New Testament ekklesia are the same thing because the Church developed out of the ekklesia. Second, that unity for all who are in Christ is centered around doctrine. The practice of closed communion is a practice that says that every other Church is a denomination and is not the true Church and that they don’t have the true doctrine. Unity according to Paul is through the Spirit, not doctrine. He goes on to say that doctrine is something that we grow into. This is all in Ephesians chapter 4.

If you want to perpetuate an idea that began over fifteen hundred years ago and continues to be believed by Orthodoxy and Catholicism and Protestantism alike, that is, of course, your privilege. No doubt, you believe that the Church you go to, whatever denomination it might be, is the true Church. And that this Church is equal to the universal Body of Christ. But be clear that this is the idea that is the source of denominationalism today.

JamesG

 

[Alabaster]

The Body of Christ is the Church, which consists of all believers in Jesus Christ, past, present and future. We are a mighty army!

I don't think for one minute that my local assembly is the one true Church. It is a great church, made up of many Spirit-filled people of God, members of the Body of Christ. The Church is made up of people! Always has and always will.

My opinion from your post, JamesG, is that sometimes I think all this 'book larnin'' ain't too healthy!

 

[Elijah674]

Wherever two or more true Christians are gathered in the name of Christ, there is a Christian Church. He has many many people in churches all over the world, from America to Russia to Greece to Japan to China to Spain to Romania to Finland to Ireland to England and Scotland to Ethiopia to Egypt to Syria and Lebanon to Armenia and all the other many nations of the world, there are Christians in virtually every nation under the sun. Many Christians die and suffer for the name of Christ.

That is not the question of if there are Christ's own in the many churchs. Read the heading slowly! 'Where is the Church Of Jesus' according to the Bible?

Eccl. 3:15 says NOTHING NEW! In John 10:16 Christ's Words tell of His day having His own in WRONG 'Folds' (churchs) And they must leave these folds? Why?? Because the Fold or Church IS CHRISTLESS! (Why ealse???) And Rev. 18:4 Inspiration gives the same WARNING to [MY PEOPLE!] If Christ was IN these churchs, what need is there to WARN them to leave? So who is their leader if not Christ? See Rev. 3:9 for both repeated histries!

So: Where do these True 'Remnant' OFF-SHOOT ONES GO, seems to be the 'Title' question???? Surely not into the Rev. 17:1-5 ones, huh?

--Elijah

 

[JamesG]

.

Alabaster

“My opinion from your post, JamesG, is that sometimes I think all this 'book larnin'' ain't too healthy!â€

Christianity is in a shambles today. Nothing but denominations led by men. Most denominations will not allow Christians from other denominations to participate in the Lord’s Table in their Church because of doctrinal differences. This is the practice of interdenominational closed communion. It shouldn’t take any “book larnin†to see this. All it should take is a true relationship with Jesus Christ as true Lord and as true teacher through the Spirit of God. If all you have is the Bible than you have nothing really. Indeed, all you have is “book larninâ€. And not even that because the larnin will be a figment of your own mind that has nothing whatsoever to do with what the Biblical writers actually wrote. Open your eyes to what’s going on around you and maybe you will see who is actually being influenced by “book larninâ€.

There is a reason for all of this. I see the problem clearly. Paul stated the purpose for division in 1Corinthians 11:18-19. But those divisions that Paul was referring to were confined to a single ekklesia, the ekklesia in Corinth. The situation today is much worse than that.

It would have been great to have remained ignorant. Then you would just be talking to a dyed in the wool Baptist arguing doctrine with you. Why I believe that we are saved through grace alone by faith alone, why I believe the Bible is the infallible inerrant word of God in the KJV version only, why I believe in the Protestant version of the Trinity, why I believe in the premillennial rapture of the Church, etc. ad infinitum, ad nauseum. I would think of you as a heretic if you didn’t believe the same way that I did simply because you don’t believe “the truth†as I see it. I was a fundamentalist Protestant. A pharisaical sect of Christianity. A mean fundamentalist, as it were. What I and those in my circle believe that the Bible says is what it says, period. If you aren’t a Baptist and a member of our Church, you wouldn’t be able to participate in the Lord’s Table with us. However, you would be allowed to listen to the sermon in my Church in hopes that you would be saved, and not just saved from disagreeing with us, SAVED. Because if you don’t believe the same as us, you aren’t SAVED yet. Even though in your own mind you are a Christian.

That is where I came from. That is denominational thinking. That is what the practice of interdenominational closed communion is all about. And that is what Christianity is all about. Each denomination of Christianity is distinct for a reason. Can you guess what that reason is? Or does it even matter to you?

It didn’t matter to me until I saw that Christianity is totally against the will of God, totally against the will of Jesus Christ. The same Jesus Christ who is to me the only way and the only truth and the only life, the only way to God. The same Jesus Christ who to me is my wisdom, my righteousness, my sanctification, and my redemption. Is that my reality simply because of an interpretation of the Bible by men? Am I indignant about the denominational nature of Christianity for no reason? Am I indignant about the fact that those who are in Christ are being deceived by a man-made religion for no reason? Am I indignant because of “book larnin� You may freely insult me if that is your wish. But this is an affront to Jesus Christ. Be careful of what you say.

JamesG

 

[Elijah674]

Folks! Are these not the Words of Christ?? We see the REQUIRED steps dealing with 'trespass'. (sin) And we see a church that Christ had just started up. No, no pope, but a real Loving church membership with authority to add to, or deleat from heaven's membership as well! And it also is a conditional calling given to the whole church, as seen in old Israel (Matt. 23:38) + Rev. 2:5's WARNING as in the whole Candlestick! (spewed out Laodicea as in Rev. 3:9's repeate. (Again, Eccl. 3:15)

But that does not VOID OUT CHRIST'S WORD!
You can even follow Saul (Paul) around in Acts 7-8-9 and find where he was sent by Christ Himself.... 'FINALLY!' (After his TOTAL I GIVE UP LORD!) (bottom/line) ibid 9:6

[14] Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
[15] Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

[16] But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

[17] And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
[18] Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

And who believes Christ on that Truth, huh?? That too IS 'THE DOCTRINE OF CHRIST' that He REQUIRES!

--Elijah

 

[Scotth1960]

Nowhere does God say this. That is a convenient notion that people use to assuage their consciences for forsaking local church membership. It isn't true.[/B]

Wasn't that a quote from the Scripture? Doesn't the first couple constitute the first church: Adam and Eve? Isn't the family a symbol of Christ's love for the church? Anyway, yes, there probably needs to be more than merely 2 or 3 believers to constitute a real local church congregation. Church is both inside and outside of a temple. Mainly, on Sunday in a temple, a church building. And, then, during the week, in our individual family units. Don't you believe Christ is with you when you're not in church on Sunday? And Christ is closer, perhaps, when you are in a local congregation on Sunday, and sometimes other days of the Christian week.
Forsaking local church membership wasn't what I was referring to. The church is made up of laity, and people in various situations: married, and unmarried.

 

[Scotth1960]

.

Alabaster

“My opinion from your post, JamesG, is that sometimes I think all this 'book larnin'' ain't too healthy!”

Christianity is in a shambles today. Nothing but denominations led by men. Most denominations will not allow Christians from other denominations to participate in the Lord’s Table in their Church because of doctrinal differences. This is the practice of interdenominational closed communion. It shouldn’t take any “book larnin” to see this. All it should take is a true relationship with Jesus Christ as true Lord and as true teacher through the Spirit of God. If all you have is the Bible than you have nothing really. Indeed, all you have is “book larnin”. And not even that because the larnin will be a figment of your own mind that has nothing whatsoever to do with what the Biblical writers actually wrote. Open your eyes to what’s going on around you and maybe you will see who is actually being influenced by “book larnin”.

There is a reason for all of this. I see the problem clearly. Paul stated the purpose for division in 1Corinthians 11:18-19. But those divisions that Paul was referring to were confined to a single ekklesia, the ekklesia in Corinth. The situation today is much worse than that.

It would have been great to have remained ignorant. Then you would just be talking to a dyed in the wool Baptist arguing doctrine with you. Why I believe that we are saved through grace alone by faith alone, why I believe the Bible is the infallible inerrant word of God in the KJV version only, why I believe in the Protestant version of the Trinity, why I believe in the premillennial rapture of the Church, etc. ad infinitum, ad nauseum. I would think of you as a heretic if you didn’t believe the same way that I did simply because you don’t believe “the truth” as I see it. I was a fundamentalist Protestant. A pharisaical sect of Christianity. A mean fundamentalist, as it were. What I and those in my circle believe that the Bible says is what it says, period. If you aren’t a Baptist and a member of our Church, you wouldn’t be able to participate in the Lord’s Table with us. However, you would be allowed to listen to the sermon in my Church in hopes that you would be saved, and not just saved from disagreeing with us, SAVED. Because if you don’t believe the same as us, you aren’t SAVED yet. Even though in your own mind you are a Christian.

That is where I came from. That is denominational thinking. That is what the practice of interdenominational closed communion is all about. And that is what Christianity is all about. Each denomination of Christianity is distinct for a reason. Can you guess what that reason is? Or does it even matter to you?

It didn’t matter to me until I saw that Christianity is totally against the will of God, totally against the will of Jesus Christ. The same Jesus Christ who is to me the only way and the only truth and the only life, the only way to God. The same Jesus Christ who to me is my wisdom, my righteousness, my sanctification, and my redemption. Is that my reality simply because of an interpretation of the Bible by men? Am I indignant about the denominational nature of Christianity for no reason? Am I indignant about the fact that those who are in Christ are being deceived by a man-made religion for no reason? Am I indignant because of “book larnin”? You may freely insult me if that is your wish. But this is an affront to Jesus Christ. Be careful of what you say.

JamesG

Everybody does believe in their own interpretations of the OT and NT Scriptures. The question is: which Church today has living continuity with the earliest Christians immediately after the NT was completed and written? These were the Apostolic Fathers, the Ante-Nicene Fathers, and the Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers. These Fathers wrote in Greek and in Latin. And a few in Syriac and other languages. Armenian, etc. Which Church today traces her faith back to the Church Fathers, without the Filioque (as the Filioque is HERESY: see JOHN 15:26! please!). It is the one holy catholic and apostolic church (Creed of Constantinople I, of 318 fathers, 381 AD), also known as the (Greek) Orthodox Church. Take care.
The Church Fathers have the best, most accurate interpretation of the NT and OT Scriptures. The period of the early Fathers stretches from 70 AD to 880 AD, with the time of Photios of Constantinople.
Take care. Scott Harrington Erie PA

 

[JamesG]

.

Scotth1960

Ah, an adherent of the Eastern Orthodox Church in our midst? Most Protestants are ignorant of the doctrines of this Church, thinking that they are the same as the Roman Catholic Church, if they are even aware of Orthodoxy at all. To Roman Catholics, after Vatican II, the Eastern Churches have suddenly become sister Churches. Interesting.

Personally, I experienced the Eastern Orthodox Church quite by accident. The symbolism portrayed therein is generally speaking quite Biblical. And I still prefer the Eastern version of the sign of the cross over the Western version. It is much more expressive. And, oddly enough, since I am a Westerner, I agree with the Eastern argument concerning the Filioque in the Creed. The Western Church should have left well enough alone. The Orthodox parish that I attended was part of a Russian Church that is now in the OCA. And the practice continues to be like the old country so far as I know. Only the old sit down in chairs available around the edge of the sanctuary. The people express their faith in a beautiful way. The rite of St. John Chrysostom is a bit repetitive as it is practiced today, which leads me to believe it may have been much longer at one time. And having read St. John Chrysostom that would not surprise me, if he truly was the originator of that rite. The icons are beautifully expressive in a simple way. And I miss the incense. But of course, I couldn’t participate in the Eucharist without converting to Orthodoxy. And that just couldn’t happen because our doctrines are different. Many in that Church even admitted that they believed that I was not actually a Christian because I was not Orthodox. Fortunately, not all believed that. I would have left sooner if they had. And I would have missed out on an experience that continues with me to the present day.

Nevertheless, the Eastern Orthodox Church practices interdenominational closed communion, just like the Roman Catholic Church and just like the Protestant Churches. The practice shows that this Church is just another denomination of Christianity that practices denominational thinking. It claims to have the correct or orthodox doctrine and they divide with anyone who doesn’t agree with their doctrine, anyone who disagrees can’t partake of the Eucharist. And like the Catholics, half of the rite is the Eucharist. Is half a rite better than no rite at all? For some perhaps, but not for me.

Long human history means nothing to an infinite God. And close proximity to the first century writers does not mean that the Church “Fathers†got it any more or less right than those who interpret the Bible today. And don’t tell me that the New Testament didn’t exist during those days because it did, if not in written form than through the functions of the ekklesia as described by Paul. The earliest Church “Fathers†quote most of it, so it did exist, even if it was not gathered into the form that we see today. And while every conservative Christian seems to agree that the Bible is the written word of God, the same thing is not agreed upon concerning the interpretations of the “Fathers†of the Church. Even between Orthodoxy and Catholicism.

The ekklesia are continuously contemporary expressions. They are intended to be corporate expressions of those who are in Christ. It is in the ekklesia that the ultimate expression of the Reality that is in Jesus Christ is intended to be experienced. Not in man-made organizations that call themselves Christian Churches. The ekklesia exist today because they are continuously contemporary. But they are local expressions connected to cities, not anything like the universal and denominational expressions found in Christianity.

The ekklesia are continuously contemporary corporate expressions that are intended to express the Life of God, the Residence of God, the body of Christ, and the Kingdom of God and of the Son through the Spirit of God on the earth today. But they are not expressing the intention of God simply because those who are in Christ have been deceived by a man-made religion. Many who are in Christ have individual ministries. And while that is not the best nor the intended expression, it is better than nothing at all. When they do express a corporate expression, it is only in relation to doctrine resulting in a denominational expression of Christianity. I still do not know whether or not a denominational expression can truly participate in the Lord’s Table. Since Christians are not dying in droves, I tend to think not. But on the other hand, if the matter is determined by individual faith, and not according to the thinking of the denomination, then perhaps it is possible.

Satan has not overcome the ekklesia today any more than he has in the past. It can’t be overcome because it is out of Divine Life and because the Lord of each ekklesia is Jesus Christ who was not overcome. But it is not functioning according to its intended purpose. That is not the fault of God or of Jesus Christ. That is because of the deception that is prevalent among the ones who are in Christ today. And the deception is difficult to see today. The English Bibles mistranslate ekklesia with Church which doesn’t offer any help to the majority who do not know the koine Greek. And the ones who are in Christ have become too comfortable within the human limitations of Christianity.

Satan wants Christianity to thrive because it is a human imitation of the ekklesia, and humans can relate to it. And God has allowed this human imitation to thrive because of what Paul said in 1Corinthians 11:18-19. But now there is a need for the truth to show itself as being something that is in contrast to Christianity. Denominational Christianity is far worse than what Paul was describing in 1 Corinthians. Paul was describing a situation in a local ekklesia.

Self-deception? Perhaps. If I ever discover that I have been deceived by my own imagination to believe what I do today, that is when I will revert to Atheism. Because then I will believe the same thing about the Bible that I currently believe about Christianity. Those who are Reformed will nod knowingly because to them one can’t be a true Christian unless chosen by God to be so. And no matter how the rest of us would like to be Christians, it will never happen. That is not the reality that I have read about in the Bible. Talk about self-deception. But that is another topic.

I am not yet an Atheist. So I don’t believe in the human concepts that are so prevailing today, like Evolution. The “intelligence†that humanity possesses is either due to its creation by a God in its own image or it is a “glorious accidentâ€, as the Evolutionist Jay Gould used to say. But looking at what mankind is doing to the planet and to itself, if humanity is an accident, it is not a glorious one. If nature is truly in control, then it will right that mistake and humanity will eventually go the way of the dinosaur. But I believe that God created the earth in six literal days as we understand days, not in six epochs. And I also believe that Genesis is only speaking of the creation of the earth, the sky and the earth, not the heavens and the earth as if a reference to the universe. And the Genesis account is from the point of view of one on the earth, not from outer space as it is taken today. And I believe that God created the two original humans and all of the fauna and flora exactly as the Genesis account says. And he perhaps created this solar system at the same time. As far as the rest of the universe is concerned, it may well have been created billions of years ago. Genesis does not deal with this matter. But then, that too is another topic.

As one who believes that he is in Christ being taught by Jesus Christ as the living Word through the Bible as the written word through the Spirit of God, I don’t believe in the concept of the “True Church†among the many denominations of Christianity either. I believe in the concept that the New Testament writers wrote about. The local ekklesia.

Some Orthodox have claimed that Roman Catholicism and Protestantism are simply two sides of the same coin. That is a correct assessment. But what they failed to realize is that the coin is actually three sided and includes the Eastern Orthodox Church.

JamesG

 

[Elijah674]

Very Flustrating, huh? The question is asked above 'Where Is The Church..!

And what we hear instead, is such an such are not the church.;)

 

[Alabaster]

Wasn't that a quote from the Scripture? Doesn't the first couple constitute the first church: Adam and Eve? Isn't the family a symbol of Christ's love for the church? Anyway, yes, there probably needs to be more than merely 2 or 3 believers to constitute a real local church congregation. Church is both inside and outside of a temple. Mainly, on Sunday in a temple, a church building. And, then, during the week, in our individual family units. Don't you believe Christ is with you when you're not in church on Sunday? And Christ is closer, perhaps, when you are in a local congregation on Sunday, and sometimes other days of the Christian week.
Forsaking local church membership wasn't what I was referring to. The church is made up of laity, and people in various situations: married, and unmarried.

The Church is here on earth and is made up of ONLY born again Christians.

 

[JamesG]

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Alabaster

“The Church is here on earth and is made up of ONLY born again Christians.”

As I said, there is a difference between the Church and the ekklesia. The Church is understood in Christianity in two different ways. But there is a common idea concerning the Church that allows for both understandings. The common idea of the Church is that it has two aspects....universal and local.

The Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church defines the Church as including all believers who have lived, who currently live, and who will live. In that sense, the Church is universal and is synonymous with the Body of Christ. And they identify their own Churches respectively as the true universal Church on the earth. But there is a connection between believers past and present. Thus prayer to the Saints. The Church in its local aspect are called parishes.

Protestants pretty much believe the same thing, with the exception that there is no contact between believers past and present, and hence no prayer to the Saints. And just to be confusing, they will refer to their own denomination as the Church as per their distinctions referring to the universal aspect of their denomination, and they refer to the Churches that belong to their denomination in its local aspect as Churches also.

In most English Bibles, the Greek word ekklesia is translated Church. Thus Christianity superimposes its own definitions of Church onto the Greek word ekklesia. The true meaning of ekklesia is lost through this practice of interpretation.

The Greek word ekklesia refers to those who are called out of a city population to be the corporate expression of the Reality that is in Christ in that city. Thus, it is only local, not universal. Each ekklesia is only composed of the living, the ones who are called out, not the dead. But each ekklesia is to be an expression of the Body of Christ on the earth. The Body of Christ is universal, including all who are in Christ past and present. The ekklesia is only local associated with cities.

And look for the names of the ekklesia in the New Testament. They are only referred to by their association with a city. There is no such thing as “denomination name” Church or the Church on “whatever name” street or the “name” community Church.

Praying to the dead in Christ was never mentioned by anyone in the New Testament. It is not an emphasis as it has become in Orthodoxy and Catholicism. We are connected to the Divine through the connection between the Spirit of God and our human spirit. And the only purpose for that connection is to grow into a real expression of Christ upon the earth. That is the purpose of the ekklesia, not each individual. Jesus can use individuals, just as God did in the Old Testament era. But like the purpose of God was corporately fulfilled during that era through the called nation of Israel, so also is the purpose of God intended to be fulfilled today through the called nation expressed in each ekklesia.

There is no such thing as Churches that the New Testament writers write about. They only write about ekklesia. And it is the ekklesia that are “here on earth and is made up of ONLY born again Christians”. Born again believers, actually.

The term Christian refers to one who follows Christ. But it was never intended to be a denotation of born again believers. Acts 11:26 says, “(It was at Antioch that the believers were first called Christians.)” NLT. Note what it says. Here is how it reads in Christianity, “And the disciples first called themselves Christians in Antioch”. The practice of human Biblical interpretation in action. Those who are truly born again are much more than disciples or learners from Christ, much more than Christians or followers of Christ. They are in Christ.

Incidentally, the Greek word translated as believers in the NLT in this verse, actually means disciple or learner. This is an example of why I don’t prefer the NLT. It may be good for just reading. But it translates rather freely and interpretively. All English translations tend to be interpretive translations, but some are more so than others. And the NLT is too much so. I prefer the KJV because it is more literal, many resources are connected with it like Strong’s concordance, and I can understand it well due to long time use. But I am not a KJV only person. I would suggest the NIV as a fair translation, but due to its popularity, it is rather expensive. Try the English Standard Version or the Holman Christian Standard Bible. Among the newer translations, they aren’t bad.

I will sometimes allow Christians to refer to me as a Christian, or I will refer to myself as a Christian, simply to avoid confusion among those who believe that the one who is a Christian and the one who is in Christ are synonymous. But in actuality, I just consider myself to be in Christ. And to me, the term Christian is to much associated with the man-made religion that calls itself Christianity.

The one who is in Christ has to believe into Christ and be baptized into Christ in order to be in Christ. It is thus a rebirth (born again) and it is only possible through the action of God (born from above). It is NOT something that we can do on our own. It is NOT something that is real simply because we belong to a particular denomination of Christianity. It is NOT real because we believe in Christ and what he has done, though that is necessary and will lead to believing into Christ. It is NOT just praying some human prayer to God or Jesus.

“In Christ” is the term Paul used and it is much more comprehensive than the term Christian. It is a connection, a relationship, with Jesus Christ that those who are only disciples or only Christians can not have. That is why Paul, in all of his letters that we have, never referred to himself as either a disciple or a Christian. And all that the term Christianity means is an association of those who claim to be Christians. And apparently, anybody can claim to be a Christian, whether or not they are in Christ.

I am not a part of the Christian religion. The Churches of Christianity are composed of a mixture. Believers and non-believers who think that they are believers. And to Christianity, this is considered legitimate because of a human interpretation of the parable of the wheat and the tares.

Each ekklesia is only composed of the living who are in Christ. But that doesn’t imply that there are none who are attending with the ekklesia who are seekers or wolves in sheep clothing. In Christianity one can’t tell the difference between those who are in Christ and those who are not, because so many who may actually be in Christ are walking like men. But in the ekklesia, if the connection to the Spirit is there, the difference is easy to discern.

But, no doubt, none of this fits in with your understanding of reality. I can only encourage you to continue to be conformed to Christ and to be transformed by the renewing of your mind through the teaching of Christ as the Living Word who teaches with the Bible as the written word through the Spirit of God. Not just your destiny, it is intended to be your present reality.

JamesG

 

[Alabaster]

I repeat:
The Church is here on earth and is made up of ONLY born again Christians...and I must add to that that there are millions of members of the Church of Jesus Christ who have passed on and are before Him in heaven right now, praise God!

JamesG: As far as my destiny goes, I am being conformed to the image of Christ as an ongoing growth in Him, and my destiny is that I will achieve His perfect likeness one fine Day!

 

[JamesG]

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Alabaster

I said what I wanted to say on the subject. Thank You for your help.

JamesG