Where Is The Church Of Jesus Christ At According To The Bible ??

[ageetonyagee]

Take a pick for the true church is not the issue.
The words on a building is not the issue really.
The words of an organization is not the issue really.

We can be very bible specific and eliminate wordy vague talk.

Anybody mocking John 3:5 is not our brethren-----Amos 3:3.

Anybody mocking Hebrews 4 is not our brethren-----Amos 3:3

Anybody mocking 1 Peter 3:3 is not our brethren----Titus 3:10

Anybody mocking 2 Peter 1:20-21 is not our brethren---Psalms 133:1

Anybody mocking 1 Timothy 2:9-14 is not our brethren---2 Cor. 6

Anybody mocking Romans 6:1 is not our brethren-----John 8:31

Anybody a short cut religion person is not our brethren----Matthew 5:18-20

Anybody a get everybody preacher is not our brethren---Matthew 7:6

Anybody a heard God preacher without the bible is not our
brethren----Romans 10:17

Anybody a vague unity preacher their not our brethren---- 2 Timothy 3:16 and
1 Thessalonians 5:12 and Amos 3:3 and 2 Cor. 6 and Psalms 133:1.

Anybody a segregation is hate only preacher; they not our
brethren------John 17 and Amos 3:3 and 2 Cor. 6 and Psalms 133:1 and
Titus 3:10 and Matthew 15:14.

Anybody expecting to know a Christian in 5 minutes is not our brethren
today---2 Timothy 3:16 and 1 Thessalonians 5:12 and John 8:31 and
Amos 3:3 and 2 Cor. 6 and Titus 3:10 and Psalms 133:1.

The heart of the matter for curious Christians still remains----Matthew 5:6.

Hungering to know who really believe all the bible is exciting
today-----Matthew 5:6 and Amos 3:3 and 2 Cor. 6 and Psalms 133:1

The excitement is more in the unity then in the news to others about
blood-----Psalms 133:1

The excitement is more in the unity then in the news to others about
what God did last week giving us back custody of a child---Psalms 133:1

Thirsting for our kind is exciting today----Matthew 5:6 and Amos 3:3 and
Psalms 133:1.

Blood meetings bring devils together all the time----Romans 6:1.

Bragging about blessing meetings bring devils together all the time--1 Timothy 6

 

[JamesG]

.
ageetonyagee

Speaking of wordy vague talk, what is your point?

JamesG

 

[francisdesales]

The Church is here on earth and is made up of ONLY born again Christians.

That's not correct.

The Church is also in heaven. Nothing, not even death, can separate us from the Body (the Church). Correct? The saints, who worship the God of the Living, continue what we do in a more imperfect way down here on earth - love. There are not two churches, one in heaven and one here.

As to the second part, I fear to ask what you mean by "born again Christians", since that is such a vague - and not very biblical - notion. If you mean "baptized by the Spirit", then I would agree with that.

Regards

 

[Alabaster]

That's not correct.

The Church is also in heaven. Nothing, not even death, can separate us from the Body (the Church). Correct? The saints, who worship the God of the Living, continue what we do in a more imperfect way down here on earth - love. There are not two churches, one in heaven and one here.

I also added in a subsequent post that the Church of Jesus Christ consists of brethren who have passed on and are with Him in heaven as well.

As to the second part, I fear to ask what you mean by "born again Christians", since that is such a vague - and not very biblical - notion. If you mean "baptized by the Spirit", then I would agree with that.

It isn't vague. People who have at one time in their life received Jesus Christ as their own personal Saviour and Lord are born again. It is completely biblical.

First of all Jesus Himself tells us we must be born again.

John 3:7 NLT
So don’t be surprised when I say, ‘You must be born again.’

1 Peter 1:23 Amplified
You have been regenerated (born again), not from a mortal origin (seed, sperm), but from one that is immortal by the ever living and lasting Word of God.


Not every born again Christian undergoes the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

 

[francisdesales]

I also added in a subsequent post that the Church of Jesus Christ consists of brethren who have passed on and are with Him in heaven as well.

Yes, you did. My apologies, I was responding to one post, not the entire body of your work on this thread.

It isn't vague. People who have at one time in their life received Jesus Christ as their own personal Saviour and Lord are born again. It is completely biblical.

First of all Jesus Himself tells us we must be born again.

John 3:7 NLT
So don’t be surprised when I say, ‘You must be born again.’

That is an incorrect translation, made quite clear in Jesus response to Nicodemus on being born "again". The Greek word anōthen can mean "again" or "above". Nicodemus thinks Jesus is stating "again" by refering to the earthly birth Jesus is stating very clearly He means "from above".

We are not born spiritually "again". What is born of flesh is flesh. We are born from above ONCE, not AGAIN.

Secondly, you are linking "being born again (sic)" with "accepting Jesus as my Lord and Savior", which Jesus doesn't state. He says we must be born from above by the Spirit who blows where HE wills. It is not dependent upon an intellectual assent - otherwise, we "give birth" to ourselves. The birth is from above. Faith in Christ is a gift from above - and being born from above is by "fire and the Spirit" not by an intellectual "I do". Our assent, our response, is naturally necessary, but as you can see, your response is vague and seems to point to the believer as the ultimate savior of Himself. By making a statement of recognition, one is "saved".

I'm sorry, but it is more than that. You are forgeting about metanoia. "Repent and believe". Not just "believe". Perhaps you are including that in your statement, I don't know. Again, a vague answer...

1 Peter 1:23 Amplified
You have been regenerated (born again), not from a mortal origin (seed, sperm), but from one that is immortal by the ever living and lasting Word of God.

Regenerated doesn't mean "born again" as per your definition.

Look up in a lexicon what "anagennaō" (born again) means. Note, it is not the same word used in John 3, as you attempt to point out. Note, you are missing the "conversion" aspect of the definition in 1 Peter 1. It is not just a matter of saying "Lord, Lord" (Matthew 7:21).

Not every born again Christian undergoes the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

A person is united to Christ by baptism, through the lather of regeneration. You are confusing the issue by attempting to state that "only those who are good Christians have been truly baptized by the Spirit", even a long time ago. That is ludicrous, because Christians sin. If we look at a person during a lull in their walk, during moments of sin, do we then decide that "they must never have had the baptism of the Spirit"?

This makes the Baptism of the Spirit totally subjective. If you are good today, you must have been baptized by the Spirit. If you sin tomorrow, oh, I guess you really were one of those "not every born again Christian undergoes the Baptism of the Holy Spirit". This leads to excessive judgmental behavior in the community, as well as prideful and fallacious hiding of our own sins so that others THINK we are one of those "baptized by the Spirit".

This is not the Biblical way of looking at Baptism, Alabaster.

Regards

 

[Elijah674]

Yes, you did. My apologies, I was responding to one post, not the entire body of your work on this thread.



That is an incorrect translation, made quite clear in Jesus response to Nicodemus on being born "again". The Greek word anōthen can mean "again" or "above". Nicodemus thinks Jesus is stating "again" by refering to the earthly birth Jesus is stating very clearly He means "from above".

We are not born spiritually "again". What is born of flesh is flesh. We are born from above ONCE, not AGAIN.

Secondly, you are linking "being born again (sic)" with "accepting Jesus as my Lord and Savior", which Jesus doesn't state. He says we must be born from above by the Spirit who blows where HE wills. It is not dependent upon an intellectual assent - otherwise, we "give birth" to ourselves. The birth is from above. Faith in Christ is a gift from above - and being born from above is by "fire and the Spirit" not by an intellectual "I do". Our assent, our response, is naturally necessary, but as you can see, your response is vague and seems to point to the believer as the ultimate savior of Himself. By making a statement of recognition, one is "saved".

I'm sorry, but it is more than that. You are forgeting about metanoia. "Repent and believe". Not just "believe". Perhaps you are including that in your statement, I don't know. Again, a vague answer...



Regenerated doesn't mean "born again" as per your definition.

Look up in a lexicon what "anagennaō" (born again) means. Note, it is not the same word used in John 3, as you attempt to point out. Note, you are missing the "conversion" aspect of the definition in 1 Peter 1. It is not just a matter of saying "Lord, Lord" (Matthew 7:21).



A person is united to Christ by baptism, through the lather of regeneration. You are confusing the issue by attempting to state that "only those who are good Christians have been truly baptized by the Spirit", even a long time ago. That is ludicrous, because Christians sin. If we look at a person during a lull in their walk, during moments of sin, do we then decide that "they must never have had the baptism of the Spirit"?

This makes the Baptism of the Spirit totally subjective. If you are good today, you must have been baptized by the Spirit. If you sin tomorrow, oh, I guess you really were one of those "not every born again Christian undergoes the Baptism of the Holy Spirit". This leads to excessive judgmental behavior in the community, as well as prideful and fallacious hiding of our own sins so that others THINK we are one of those "baptized by the Spirit".

This is not the Biblical way of looking at Baptism, Alabaster.

Regards

Sounds like a post from 2 Cor. 4:2 of trying to be 'crafty' or 'dishonest'? Surely the other post did not say that, huh???

And of course we can be 'IN CHRIST & THEN OUT OF CHRIST'. Even rome has that figured out! We are not forced to be followers of the Holy Spirit. Rom. 8:1 has a Rom. 8:14 verse! Matt. 10:22

--Elijah

 

[JamesG]

.
Elijah674

Since the Bible has become so subject to the practice of interpretation, I hesitate to even offer a Scriptural portion, knowing that it will be understood totally differently by you. Nevertheless,

"If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit." Galatians 5:25 KJV

If we are in Christ then we live in Spiirt. But that doesn't mean that we are walking according to the Spirit. From outward appearances, the one who lives in Spirit, but is not walking according to the Spirit looks like one has jumped out of being in Christ. But actually, they are still in Christ.

JamesG

 

[Alabaster]

Yes, you did. My apologies, I was responding to one post, not the entire body of your work on this thread.



That is an incorrect translation, made quite clear in Jesus response to Nicodemus on being born "again". The Greek word anōthen can mean "again" or "above". Nicodemus thinks Jesus is stating "again" by refering to the earthly birth Jesus is stating very clearly He means "from above".

We are not born spiritually "again". What is born of flesh is flesh. We are born from above ONCE, not AGAIN.

I use an excellent translation. Jesus talks about undergoing a second birth. Born again is referring to the spiritual rebirth all Christians undergo when they act on their newly found faith and willfully receive Jesus Christ.

Don't play semantics. It doesn't work in this area.

Secondly, you are linking "being born again (sic)" with "accepting Jesus as my Lord and Savior", which Jesus doesn't state. He says we must be born from above by the Spirit who blows where HE wills. It is not dependent upon an intellectual assent - otherwise, we "give birth" to ourselves. The birth is from above. Faith in Christ is a gift from above - and being born from above is by "fire and the Spirit" not by an intellectual "I do". Our assent, our response, is naturally necessary, but as you can see, your response is vague and seems to point to the believer as the ultimate savior of Himself. By making a statement of recognition, one is "saved".

When we receive Christ by faith and make a confession by mouth we are saved, born again! It is a total acceptance of Jesus Christ---intellectually, but most importantly---spiritually, in the heart of the person.

I'm sorry, but it is more than that. You are forgeting about metanoia. "Repent and believe". Not just "believe". Perhaps you are including that in your statement, I don't know. Again, a vague answer...

We repent once we believe.

Regenerated doesn't mean "born again" as per your definition.

Regeneration is what begins when one is born again.

Look up in a lexicon what "anagennaō" (born again) means. Note, it is not the same word used in John 3, as you attempt to point out. Note, you are missing the "conversion" aspect of the definition in 1 Peter 1. It is not just a matter of saying "Lord, Lord" (Matthew 7:21).

I miss nothing.

A person is united to Christ by baptism, through the lather of regeneration. You are confusing the issue by attempting to state that "only those who are good Christians have been truly baptized by the Spirit", even a long time ago. That is ludicrous, because Christians sin. If we look at a person during a lull in their walk, during moments of sin, do we then decide that "they must never have had the baptism of the Spirit"?

I have no idea what you are on about here. Of course we sin occasionally. We look for fruit in the life of a believer. If there is none, we can assume he needs help, support, teaching, or really needs to be genuinely saved.

This makes the Baptism of the Spirit totally subjective. If you are good today, you must have been baptized by the Spirit. If you sin tomorrow, oh, I guess you really were one of those "not every born again Christian undergoes the Baptism of the Holy Spirit". This leads to excessive judgmental behavior in the community, as well as prideful and fallacious hiding of our own sins so that others THINK we are one of those "baptized by the Spirit".

This is not the Biblical way of looking at Baptism, Alabaster.

You do not have full understanding of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. We are not talking about water baptism.

Beside His baptizing a believer in His power, we have the responsibility to exercise our faith consistently, and grow in God. We are to use those giftings He gives us at that time of His outpouring.

Judgmentalism is a problem for people, but it doesn't have anything to do with this. We are to be real, and to love one another.

Everything I believe is biblical, francisdesales.

 

[francisdesales]

I use an excellent translation. Jesus talks about undergoing a second birth. Born again is referring to the spiritual rebirth all Christians undergo when they act on their newly found faith and willfully receive Jesus Christ.

With all due respect, you aren't. No doubt you think you are because it suits your already held beliefs. Clearly, Jesus CORRECTS the idea of being born AGAIN and speaks of being born from ABOVE. If you can't see that, then you are not open to discussion on this subject.

Don't play semantics. It doesn't work in this area.

Since when did you receive a license to be vague and then not be challenged for it??? I challenged your vague cliche, and rather than answer it, you tell me I am playing semantics? You assure me that you are using an "excellent translation"? Forgive me, I am not convinced, and have explained why.

And when I say one must repent AND believe, that is too much semantics for you???

When we receive Christ by faith and make a confession by mouth we are saved, born again! It is a total acceptance of Jesus Christ---intellectually, but most importantly---spiritually, in the heart of the person.

There are other things going on when one is saved. If merely expressing an intellectual belief with your mouth was salvific, I wouldn't NEED the Holy Spirit, and Christ CLEARLY says we are born with water and the Spirit to be born from above. As usual, people think Paul's statement in Romans is all-inclusive. The "formula" is clearly from a baptism ritual, and does NOT state all that is happening there. He refers to a baptismal formula, and the reader from Rome would clearly draw on the ENTIRE picture of Baptism, to include the water, the declaring of one's faith and to fight temptations of the devil.

We repent once we believe.

Says you. Obviously, that is not true, in real life. People can fool themselves, make an intellectual statement of belief in the emotional moment of the "altar call", and go right back to their evil ways. Please. "Repent" doesn't mean "I'm sorry". It means a total CHANGE!!! A conversion.

Regeneration is what begins when one is born again.

Born from above. We don't travel down the birth canal again...

I miss nothing.

Religious pride is a dangerous thing, because such rarely are aware that they have a problem. Read all about it under "Pharisees"...

I have no idea what you are on about here. Of course we sin occasionally. We look for fruit in the life of a believer. If there is none, we can assume he needs help, support, teaching, or really needs to be genuinely saved.

And you said you miss nothing... First, the proud statement, then this. Next paragraph, you don't get it. It is quite simple and a practical observation. Those who think as you are constantly judging whether so-and-so was "really" saved based upon their actions of late. Sinful actions merely point out that they were "never saved to begin with"... I have seen these comments here literally hundreds of times.

It is very simple for those with ears to hear..

You do not have full understanding of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. We are not talking about water baptism.

We are baptized by water and the Spirit in one act, an act that unites us in Christ's death and resurrection. The Bible doesn't speak of another Christian baptism.

Beside His baptizing a believer in His power, we have the responsibility to exercise our faith consistently, and grow in God. We are to use those giftings He gives us at that time of His outpouring.

That is true. We have that responsibility.

Judgmentalism is a problem for people, but it doesn't have anything to do with this.

Balony

Yesterday, after being away for two months, the first post that I responded to was someone judging his Catholic parents as unsaved because they never did an "altar call". Don't tell me about "it has nothing to do with this". Climb out of your ivory tower. It is done all the time by Protestants. They are always wondering whether the first baptism "took" and get it again and again. Catholics don't have that problem, because we KNOW we were baptized by the Spirit during the water baptism. There are not two Christian baptisms.

Everything I believe is biblical, francisdesales.

I'm sure you believe that. Your interpretations are fallacious. I am pointing them out, that's all. I am not saying anyone here invents stuff out of thin air. Clearly, you misread the Scriptures. That leads to error.

Regards

 

[Alabaster]

Being born again and born from above is the same thing.




A verbal confession is important:

Romans 10:9-10 NKJV
that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

 

[Alabaster]

With all due respect, you aren't. No doubt you think you are because it suits your already held beliefs. Clearly, Jesus CORRECTS the idea of being born AGAIN and speaks of being born from ABOVE. If you can't see that, then you are not open to discussion on this subject.



Since when did you receive a license to be vague and then not be challenged for it??? I challenged your vague cliche, and rather than answer it, you tell me I am playing semantics? You assure me that you are using an "excellent translation"? Forgive me, I am not convinced, and have explained why.

And when I say one must repent AND believe, that is too much semantics for you???



There are other things going on when one is saved. If merely expressing an intellectual belief with your mouth was salvific, I wouldn't NEED the Holy Spirit, and Christ CLEARLY says we are born with water and the Spirit to be born from above. As usual, people think Paul's statement in Romans is all-inclusive. The "formula" is clearly from a baptism ritual, and does NOT state all that is happening there. He refers to a baptismal formula, and the reader from Rome would clearly draw on the ENTIRE picture of Baptism, to include the water, the declaring of one's faith and to fight temptations of the devil.



Says you. Obviously, that is not true, in real life. People can fool themselves, make an intellectual statement of belief in the emotional moment of the "altar call", and go right back to their evil ways. Please. "Repent" doesn't mean "I'm sorry". It means a total CHANGE!!! A conversion.



Born from above. We don't travel down the birth canal again...



Religious pride is a dangerous thing, because such rarely are aware that they have a problem. Read all about it under "Pharisees"...



And you said you miss nothing... First, the proud statement, then this. Next paragraph, you don't get it. It is quite simple and a practical observation. Those who think as you are constantly judging whether so-and-so was "really" saved based upon their actions of late. Sinful actions merely point out that they were "never saved to begin with"... I have seen these comments here literally hundreds of times.

It is very simple for those with ears to hear..



We are baptized by water and the Spirit in one act, an act that unites us in Christ's death and resurrection. The Bible doesn't speak of another Christian baptism.



That is true. We have that responsibility.



Balony

Yesterday, after being away for two months, the first post that I responded to was someone judging his Catholic parents as unsaved because they never did an "altar call". Don't tell me about "it has nothing to do with this". Climb out of your ivory tower. It is done all the time by Protestants. They are always wondering whether the first baptism "took" and get it again and again. Catholics don't have that problem, because we KNOW we were baptized by the Spirit during the water baptism. There are not two Christian baptisms.



I'm sure you believe that. Your interpretations are fallacious. I am pointing them out, that's all. I am not saying anyone here invents stuff out of thin air. Clearly, you misread the Scriptures. That leads to error.

Regards

Too much disgusting arrogance there to reply to each of your remarks, but the Bible does teach of a subsequent baptism of the Holy Spirit. Read Acts.

 

[francisdesales]

Too much disgusting arrogance there to reply to each of your remarks, but the Bible does teach of a subsequent baptism of the Holy Spirit. Read Acts.

Yes, disageeing with you is a "disgusting arrogance", in your mind... I guess that's the easy way of avoiding your mistakes that i point out. Feign disgust. 2

As to your other point, you are again mistaken. I apologize in advance if that disgusts you again, but try to prevent any dry heeves and be more specific on subsequent baptisms that would apply TODAY? You again seem confused.

During the first century of the Church, Acts speak of "incomplete" Baptisms. Being baptized only in the name of Jesus. Or "John's Baptism". Today, people are not only baptized in the name of Jesus, as in Acts, where a subsequent baptism was required to baptize in the name of Jesus AND the Spirit. No one is baptized with John's baptism anymore, either. None of this applies anymore.

Subsequent baptisms in Acts were only to correct an incomplete baptism, not to provide a higher level of grace to "uber Christians" who preferred to judge others with their supposed higher level of enlightenment, a la. Gnosticism.

The first few years of Christianity saw a standardization of how to baptize and in Who's name. Thus, the end of Matthew 28. Once that was established, there was no further "second" baptisms ever mentioned. When the ritual was done, that's it. No uber baptisms and subjective judging that "your baptism wasn't as good as mine" or "you aren't as special as me because I was baptized in the Spirit and you were only baptized in water". This attitude is not Biblical.

Christians who are baptized in the name of the Trinity are only baptized once. In water and the Spirit. That's it. Done. Saved. There is no subsequent "baptism in the Spirit", as it already happened.

Regards

 

[Alabaster]

Holy Spirit comes UPON a person to fill them with His presence, and His anointing, just as He began to do at Pentecost and continues to do today. This is how we receive our giftings and callings and the abilities that can only be attributable to God.

 

[francisdesales]

Holy Spirit comes UPON a person to fill them with His presence, and His anointing, just as He began to do at Pentecost and continues to do today. This is how we receive our giftings and callings and the abilities that can only be attributable to God.

That is true. I have no argument with that.

However, it doesn't address what has been said here.

Regards