Bible Study Where is the First Sin in the Bible ?

[Ray Martinez]

Where is the First Sin in the Bible ?

First person to identify where and what wins !

(Hint: Its probably not what you have been led to believe)

Ray Martinez

 

[Gary]

Genesis 3:1

 

[Ray Martinez]

Genesis 3:1

The easy part is over - "the where".

Now the "what" ?

Ray Martinez

 

[lovely]

Ray,

Are you speaking to the fact that Satan deliberately tried to tempt Eve by casting God in a bad light, and trying to get her caught up in a misquote of Scripture?


What God said


Genesis 2:16

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

What Satan said

Genesis 3:1

1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"

What Eve said

Genesis 3:2

2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.'

Blessings

 

[Gary]

Yes, I think Relic is right.
(Sorry.. update. I think "lovely" is right...)

I had never really thought of Genesis 3:1 as the first sin.... until I read Scott Hahn's "A Father Who Keeps His Promises"...

(Hahn is a Roman Catholic apologist, an ex-Evangelical I think.)

Let me quote from what he wrote:

The serpent only addressed Eve throughout, but not because Adam wasn't present. (In fact, the serpent's use of Hebrew verbs in the second person plural indicates that Adam was right there all along.) By going straight to Eve, Satan was deliberately bypassing the familial structure established by God.

To start the conversation, he asked her a simple question (on the surface), but one loaded with clever ambiguity and evil insinuation: "Did God say, 'You shall not eat of any tree of the garden'?" Genesis 3:1 First of all, he spoke of Elohim, not Yahweh. (He probably was not allowed-or able-to utter that holy name.) Second, he changed the wording of the divine command to distort its meaning. (It can also be rendered, "You shall not eat from every tree.") Third, by emphasizing the negative limits, Satan impugned God's goodwill. (page 67, chapter "Splitting the Adam")

Hahn goes on to talk about Eve correcting the serpent... but not accurately. Then he talks about Satan's outright lie: "You will not die..." Genesis 3:4-5

But there is another interesting twist to the first HUMAN sin. Page 58, under the heading "Adam's Guilty Silence" and further along under the heading "Fear of Suffering" , Hahn says:

So there must be another reason why Adam kept silent. But what was it? Fear of suffering and death. And how do we know that? By going back and reading between the lines, by carefully listening again not only to what the serpent stated but also what he meant to imply.

He said, "You will not die." And that defiant contradiction hung in the air until slowly the serpent's meaning became clear: "You will not die - if you eat the fruit ..." In other words, Satan used the form of a life-threatening serpent, with his evil stealth, to deliver what Adam rightly took to be a thinly veiled threat to his life, which it was from the outset.

This alone explains Adam's silence. As the strategy of the serpent became clear, Adam had to make a dreadful choice.... Would he stand up for his bride by engaging the diabolical serpent in mortal combat? Or would he try cling to his cherished estate in Eden, with its many delights such as earthly dominion, immortality, impassability, and integrity?

The first HUMAN sin would therefore have been the sin of SILENCE!

(I have not explained everything nor written/copied the whole chapter but I think you can see the logic.)

Regards
Gary

 

[Ray Martinez]

Ray,

Are you speaking to the fact that Satan deliberately tried to tempt Eve by casting God in a bad light, and trying to get her caught up in a misquote of Scripture?

Whats at issue NOW is:

"WHAT" is the first sin with Gary already establishing WHERE (passage wise) the first sin is.

To answer your question: No, keep trying.

Casting God in a bad light is not the first sin in the Bible.

Attempting to get Eve caught up in a misquote of Scripture is not the first sin in the Bible.

Ray Martinez

 

[Ray Martinez]

Yes, I think Relic is right.

Who or what is "Relic" ?

The first HUMAN sin would therefore have been the sin of SILENCE!

There are tiny cults who believe the first sin was speaking and in response take vows of silence.

We know from Romans 10 and a plethora of other verses that speaking is mandatory in receiving salvation and the promises of God in ones life.

However, silence is not the first sin in the Bible - nor is it the first human sin in the Bible.

Gary:

Your Hahn quotes mention the first sin but neither you or Hahn seemed to notice !

Please keep trying and let me bleed this a little longer....

When I divulge the first sin in the Bible it SHOULD make your jaw drop as it did mine when I was first taught what it was.

Ray Martinez

 

[cj]

Eve willfully usurped the line of authority as ordained by God.

Adam was her head, her covering.

The interesting thing is that when the serpent approached Eve we see no indication of Eve communing/fellowshipping with Adam concerning what she knew was something that seemed contrary to God's instruction.

Rebellion is a good way to describe Eve's actions.

But rebellion from what?

From God's economy for man. When God placed Adam in front of the tree of life it was for Adam to eat of it.

Life is what defeats death, and this is why we eat Christ, for Christ is life.

And when we eat Christ we, in the principle of eating, become constituted with Christ as life, and thus can withstand the Devil.

Eve could not withstand the Devil, which means she was not constituted with life. Which could be as a result of Adam not being constituted with life, as Eve came out of Adam.

And if Adam was not constituted with life, then, maybe the blame should be with him.


In love,
cj

 

[lovely]

This is soooo interesting to me.

is cj correct?

I have some more guesses. But I am at a loss. I like cj's explanation but we could maybe go a step further with that.

Is it because Adam did not rebuke Satan and protect Eve and himself by obeying God and not mistrusting Him?

And then, even further.

It is Satan's craftiness in trying to deceive man, and seperate Him from God?

 

[Khristeeanos]

Not believing God.

 

[Relic]

.

I am Relic. :smt006 I think maybe Gary made a type'o and meant to write he agreed with the post made by lovely.

-------------------------------

So, since I'm replying anyway, here are some of the things I came up with.

First off it's disobedience. That was the first act of sin by the serpent and the first act of sin by Eve and Adam. They didn't obey what God told them. The serpent was subtle and he tempted eve and tricked her by way of perversion of truth. Disobedience is an act against the truth of God.


Then there's the lies and the giving into temptation.

Genesis 3:6
6And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Eve had given into the temptation, the seduction of evil. she had desire in her heart and wouldn't let go of it.

The sin of giving into the temptation and then tasting the forbidden, the fruit of knowledge of evil .

Taking her focus off of God and placing it onto perversion of truth. LUSTING after the forbidden fruit.


Genesis 3:14
And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

The first sin of the serpent and of Eve and Adam was the disobedience to God's Word of truth.

The first sin was that of the serpent toward the woman was beguiling the woman. perversion.

Was it a sin to hide from the presence of God? This is the first thing God addresses to Adam and Eve after they took of the tree and then they hid themselves seeing they were naked .

Genesis 3:8
And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

Genesis 3:11
And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?


Actually, I dislike guessing games. :-?

I am just anxious to know what Mr. Martinez comes up with. :smt017

.

 

[Jay T]

Where is the First Sin in the Bible ?

Genesis 3:6 "And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat".

"THOU SHALT NOT COVET"( Exodus 20:17)

"THOU SHALT NOT STEAL"(Exodus 20:15)


Now, I hope someone won't be naive enough, to make the comment, that there was no such law as that in their time.

Because the simple fact is..... Romans 4:15 " for where no law is, [there is] no transgression".

 

[Ray Martinez]

Genesis 3:6 "And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat".

I have already confirmed that Gary (post #2) has established WHERE the first sin in the Bible occurrs (Genesis 3:1).

Now I am asking the debate to identify WHAT is the first sin in the Bible.

Your quote above is the incorrect answer - please keep trying.

Ray Martinez

 

[Ray Martinez]

This is soooo interesting to me.

is cj correct?

I read the post you cite here but it really doesn't even try to offer a specific answer.

Is it because Adam did not rebuke Satan and protect Eve and himself by obeying God and not mistrusting Him?

Yes it is a sin to not rebuke Satan and to disobey God and to not trust Him BUT these are NOT the first sin in the Bible while they all are among the first sins.

What I am after is precise and inescapable and after I tell you ALL of the attacks on the Bible by atheists and closet atheists who call themselves christians will be seen for what they are - ????????

It is Satan's craftiness in trying to deceive man, and seperate Him from God?

I find no craftiness by Satan as embodied by the serpent in the text.

But the answer is no.

I will divulge the answer tomorrow - Monday, June 6th (California time) if no one has identified what it is.

Gary and his Hahn quotes came close - but no cigar.

Ray Martinez

 

[Relic]

.

:smt017 :smt102


Beats the :onfire: out of me :-?

I can't stand those cross word puzzles either. :P

I tried guessing every order of perversion from that section of the bible. You got me stumped. :-?

Give me the facts and I'm happy enough. Don't have to rack my brains out trying to guess at things, sorry, I just don't like guessing games. Not my forte' and I don't get kicks out of it.

Oh well, you lost this participant.


Who else can come up with this not-so-obvious sin?


.

 

[Ray Martinez]

First off it's disobedience. That was the first act of sin by the serpent and the first act of sin by Eve and Adam.

Way too ambiguous.

Of course the first sin is disobedience - but what is it ?

And the serpent is immune from disobeying God because God ALLOWED Satan via the serpent to tempt Eve/Adam.

We have already established that the first sin is in Genesis 3:1 - what it is - is what we are trying to identify.

The remainder of your post enlarges upon the acts of disobedience and is very good commentary BUT it does not precisely identify the first sin in the Bible.

I will divulge tomorrow if no one comes up with it.

Thanks for your participation.

Ray Martinez

 

[lovely]

Okay...last guess here...

Is it that Adam did not fear God?


If not...then, I am ready to find out!!!!

:-?

 

[Gary]

Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?" Genesis 3:1 (NIV)

Satan

(1) Misquoting and part-quoting. Altering the rule/prohibition. God did NOT say "You must not eat from any tree in the garden." God said: "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die." Genesis 2:16-17 (NIV)

Adam

(1) Did not teach Eve correctly; or did not ensure that the original message and rule was understood

(2) He did not intervene when Satan started his deception

(3) Adam did not rely on God; why did he not call out for God's help?

Eve

(1) Did not understand the original rule correctly

(2) She attempted to correct the serpent but she did not quote correctly:
(a) She dropped the positive tone of the Lord's original statement ("You may freely eat of every tree.")
(b) She adopted the serpent's use of Elohim, rather than using His personal name, Yahweh

(3) She added/altered the original prohibition by adding "touching" to the divine ban on eating!

Adding to scripture.... where have we seen that?

 

[cj]

This is soooo interesting to me.

It should be interesting to all of us..... as the proper answer will show us the starting point of our falling away from God, which is no different today than it was with Adam and Eve.

is cj correct?

No, scripture is correct;

Ephesians  4 : 18, "Being darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance which is in them,........ because of the hardness of their heart;"

Don't look to men for answers, look to God.

Even in something as simple as this thread, don't make the mistake Eve made, one of coming out from under the headship of God.

The entire Godhead dwells in each believer, and all understanding can be ours, but not from men.

Do what Eve did not do,... turn to your spirit and by the Spirit know the truth. Trust the Lord and the way He has given us to know things.

And this is what it means to turn to your spirit....

Hebrews  10 : 20, "Which entrance He initiated for us as.... a new and living way.... through the veil, that is, His flesh,"

In the OT the presence of God is found in the Holy of Holies, a place that was seperated from man by a curtain/veil, just as man's access to the Tree of Life was cut off by the cherubim with the flaming sword. This is the typology of God today being found in a believer's regenerated spirit, into which we have free access.

Scripture contains all the answers, and the Spirit is with you and in you to reveal all things to you.

I have some more guesses. But I am at a loss.

No you're not, being empty is the starting pont for becoming filled with God. The truth is, being at a loss is a wonderful thing, as long as you are looking unto God alone to fill you.

I like cj's explanation but we could maybe go a step further with that.

Is it because Adam did not rebuke Satan....

Jude 1:9, "But Michael the archangel, when he contended with the devil and disputed concerning the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a reviling judgment against him but said, The Lord rebuke you."

Maintaining the order of God's authority is crucial, therefore, knowing that man was created lower than angels, could Adam have really rebuked Satan?

No.

..... and protect Eve and himself by obeying God and not mistrusting Him?

Absolutely.

The principle that sets out the context in which we can come to understand Genesis chapter 3, is found in the first verse of the chapter....

"Now the serpent was more crafty than every other animal of the field which Jehovah God had made...... And he said to the woman,..... Did God really say,......"

"And he said to...... the woman"

1 Peter 3:7, "Husbands, in like manner dwell together with them according to knowledge,....... as with the weaker, female vessel......."

According to God's wisdom and purpose, He has declared the woman to be the weaker vessel.

The first thing we need to know is our place according to God's view.

"Did God really say,......"

In the Bible Satan has a specific name, "the tempter" (Matt. 4:3). Wherever he goes he acts like a tempter, for he is such by disposition and make-up. The Lord Jesus spoke of him as a liar saying, "When he speaks a lie, he speaks out of his own self; for he is a liar and the father of it" (John 8:44). Whatever comes out of Satan is a lie.

Satan is also called "the Devil" (Rev. 12:9; 20:2) which means "the slanderer." He slanders God to man and also slanders man to God. His talk with Eve implies some slandering of God (v. 5). His slander is always a lie. It is by slanderous lies that he tempts man, and in this way he tempted Eve.

We should never expect Satan/the Devil to be improved and thus we must stay away from him.

The way Satan tempts is firstly to make a proposal to man (vv. 1, 4), a proposal which invariably questions God's Word. Satan will always try to tempt you, induce you, and trap you by making a proposal which raises questions about God's Word. Any time you doubt the Word of God you must realize that that doubt does not originate with you; it comes from the serpent. The question, "Has God said?" raises a question mark on the Word of God and is a suggestion that originates from the tempter.

Note that right at this point we see Satan attempting to drive a splitter inbetween God and man. This is what Satan does, he seperates God and man.

And how does he accomplish this division between God and man? By getting us to out from under the covering of God as our husband.

Isaiah 54:5, "For your Maker is your Husband;..... Jehovah of hosts is His name. And the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer; He is called the God of all the earth."

The inward cause of man's fall was the woman's assuming the headship (vv. 2-3, 6). Eve was ensnared by the serpent because she forgot her husband. The Devil was crafty, knowing that the woman was weaker than the man (1 Pet. 3:7), and he chose her as his target. Regardless of what the woman said to the serpent, as long as she stood there and spoke to him, she was wrong, for it indicated that she had assumed the headship. The safest way for her would have been not to talk to the evil one, but to turn to her husband and hide behind him. If Eve had done this, the subtle one would have been frustrated. Therefore, the basic cause of man's first fall was the assuming of the headship by the wife. Although she had a husband, she nonetheless stood on her own.

And then, even further.

It is Satan's craftiness in trying to deceive man, and seperate Him from God?

This is the outward reason, and Eve's act of independence was the inward reason.

It was never intended for creation to do anything apart from God.


In love,
cj

 

[cj]

(Hahn is a Roman Catholic apologist, an ex-Evangelical I think.)

And thus we should be clear about the foundation from which he would present his thoughts.

Not so good.

Let me quote from what he wrote:

The serpent only addressed Eve throughout, but not because Adam wasn't present. (In fact, the serpent's use of Hebrew verbs in the second person plural indicates that Adam was right there all along.) By going straight to Eve, Satan was deliberately bypassing the familial structure established by God.

To start the conversation, he asked her a simple question (on the surface), but one loaded with clever ambiguity and evil insinuation: "Did God say, 'You shall not eat of any tree of the garden'?" Genesis 3:1 First of all, he spoke of Elohim, not Yahweh. (He probably was not allowed-or able-to utter that holy name.) Second, he changed the wording of the divine command to distort its meaning. (It can also be rendered, "You shall not eat from every tree.") Third, by emphasizing the negative limits, Satan impugned God's goodwill. (page 67, chapter "Splitting the Adam")

Did no one notice that Hahn simply leave God out of the whole scene? Where is this ever present God?

Typical of the RC apostate doctrine, man is the focus. And this is why there is little to be gained from those who take a stand in this error.

So there must be another reason why Adam kept silent. But what was it? Fear of suffering and death. And how do we know that? By going back and reading between the lines, by carefully listening again not only to what the serpent stated but also what he meant to imply.

He said, "You will not die." And that defiant contradiction hung in the air until slowly the serpent's meaning became clear: "You will not die - if you eat the fruit ..." In other words, Satan used the form of a life-threatening serpent, with his evil stealth, to deliver what Adam rightly took to be a thinly veiled threat to his life, which it was from the outset.

This alone explains Adam's silence. As the strategy of the serpent became clear, Adam had to make a dreadful choice.... Would he stand up for his bride by engaging the diabolical serpent in mortal combat? Or would he try cling to his cherished estate in Eden, with its many delights such as earthly dominion, immortality, impassability, and integrity?

More focus on humanity..... Its really quite sick.


Please notice how God came to man after all this took place.....

"And Jehovah God called to the man and said to him, Where are you?"

And not, "Because you have done this, You are cursed more than all the cattle And more than all the animals of the field:"

Man was questioned, but Satan was cursed.

And it is important to understand the meaning of the God's question to Adam.

First, God declared His ordained way, speaking to Adam and not Eve first.

Then God asked questioned that gave man the opportunity to repent, thus showing us God's heart towards man.

Additionally, the content of God's question shows us the reality of what took place.

Where art thou? An all knowing God was not really asking a question for His own understanding, but for Adam's understanding. It is as if God was saying "Adam, you are no longer under me, under my covering. Do you realize that?"


Just a note on Mr Hahn's speaking as follows, "Would he stand up for his bride by engaging the diabolical serpent in mortal combat? Or would he try cling to his cherished estate in Eden, with its many delights such as earthly dominion, immortality, impassability, and integrity?"

First of all please know that Eve was not Adam's "bride" but was his wife.

Additionally, man was made lower than the angels, of which Satan is. Therefore, there was never a point at which Adam could even consider "engaging the diabolical serpent in mortal combat."

Really, Mr. Hahn's speaking is simply foolishness that finds its source in a false doctrine that places an emphasis on what men can do.

It is doctrine from the Devil himself.

In love,
cj