Bible Study Where is the First Sin in the Bible ?

[Ray Martinez]

The winner is CJ !

It should be interesting to all of us..... as the proper answer will show us the starting point of our falling away from God, which is no different today than it was with Adam and Eve.

YES, "the right answer will show us the starting point of our falling away from God" = perfectly and accurately said !

The principle that sets out the context in which we can come to understand Genesis chapter 3, is found in the first verse of the chapter....

"Now the serpent was more crafty than every other animal of the field which Jehovah God had made...... And he said to the woman,..... Did God really say,......"

This certainly is the right answer but it lacks the precise specificity I am going to drill here in a moment. But I wanted to give credit where credit is due.

The way Satan tempts is firstly to make a proposal to man (vv. 1, 4), a proposal which invariably questions God's Word. Satan will always try to tempt you, induce you, and trap you by making a proposal which raises questions about God's Word. Any time you doubt the Word of God you must realize that that doubt does not originate with you; it comes from the serpent. The question, "Has God said?" raises a question mark on the Word of God and is a suggestion that originates from the tempter.

Excellent !

CJ has identified the first sin in the Bible but I will finish the job now:

We have established that Genesis 3:1 is where the Bible lists the first sin. Now, at issue: What is the first sin ?

The answer was staring us in the face all along.

TOPIC TITLE: "Where is the First Sin in the Bible ?"

Do you see it ? Its in the topic title and in the preceding question !

The first sin in the Bible is where the first question mark occurs !

Genesis 3:1 "Hath God said.....?"

The first sin is to question what God said/says.

To question what God said is to doubt that He said it and to doubt that He means what He says.

Its Satan, as embodied in the serpent, who INITIATES question/doubt AS TO WHAT GOD SAID for the sole intent of attempting to establish that God does not mean what He said.

Eve darn well knew WHAT GOD SAID as she went on to repeat verbatim what God said.

God SAID IF you even so much as touch THAT *edited* tree you will die !

Here we have the eternal tactic of Satan as taught in the word of God: To make mankind "doubt/double think" what God says.

This is why the Bible/word of God is under THE SAME attack today and through the centuries by atheists and closet atheists like the Jesus Seminar who spend all their time doing the work of Satan attempting to poison the Bible as NOT God's word thus voiding what God says.

Why do secular quarters attack the Bible as unreliable ?

Answer: To void its content so their atheistic worldview is subsequently supported.

All the arguments of atheists and like are gross illogic lacking any credible evidence.

Just consider the source of attacks upon the Bible and say: "What else could an atheist conclude ?"

But here is the real goal and agenda of Satan and his army:

When we question what God says, this has ONE purpose:

To make mankind doubt the reality of the looming judgement of hell AND the only way of escape - the gospel/way of faith.

To make us doubt what God said is intended to make us doubt that we are forgiven.

Like CJ said, this is the starting point of falling away.

The entire tactic of questioning what God said is an attempt to void the gospel which is the way of faith APART from the works of Moses law which is the type of the Tree in the Garden.

"If you touch THAT tree you will surley die"

Ray Martinez

 

[Gary]

Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?" Genesis 3:1 (NIV)

Satan

(1) Misquoting and part-quoting. Altering the rule/prohibition. God did NOT say "You must not eat from any tree in the garden." God said: "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die." Genesis 2:16-17 (NIV)

 

[Gary]

P.S. Satan is not human. You have still avoided the first HUMAN sin.

:o :-? :-?

 

[Gary]

So the first sin is misquoting God's command.

Read the passages again.... more carefully this time.

God: "You are free .....

Satan: "You must not eat from ....

That is a few words BEFORE the "?" ... in case you missed it!

 

[Ray Martinez]

So the first sin is misquoting God's command.

Read the passages again.... more carefully this time.

God: "You are free .....

Satan: "You must not eat from ....

That is a few words BEFORE the "?" ... in case you missed it!

No Gary you are being obstinate.

The first sin in the Bible is where the first question mark occurs.

The first question mark occurs where the first sin occurs.

The first sin is to question what God said.

To question what God said is to imply that what He said was unlcear or that He didn't mean what He said.

Eve entertained the question = her part in the first sin.

She should of ran the opposite direction as soon as she heard the question. Instead, she gave ear and considered it.

Why was Eve even near the Tree ?

God said if you even touch it you will die.

The first sin = where the first question mark occurs in the Bible.

source: Dr. Gene Scott Ph.D. Stanford University.

Ray Martinez

 

[cubedbee]

No Gary you are being obstinate.

As someone who views Gary this way most of the time, I'm going to have to side with him on this one.

The first sin in the Bible is where the first question mark occurs.

The first question mark occurs where the first sin occurs.

The first sin is to question what God said.
To question what God said is to imply that what He said was unlcear or that He didn't mean what He said.

I agree with all this, but it was the serpant who did all this, not Eve.

Eve entertained the question = her part in the first sin.

She should of ran the opposite direction as soon as she heard the question. Instead, she gave ear and considered it.

This is false. It is not a sin to hear a question which casts doubt on God. Nor is it a sin to answer such a question with God's real and true words. Christ gives us this example in his dealings with Satan---he doesn't flee but answers with God's powerful Word. Eve does not sin until verse 4, when she starts to believe that the serpant is truthful and God is a liar.

Why was Eve even near the Tree ?

God said if you even touch it you will die

We don't know that Eve was near the tree. Verse 1 simply says the serpant found Eve in the garden---not by the tree.

The first sin = where the first question mark occurs in the Bible.

Yes, we all agree but this sin is by Satan. The first human sin is in verse 4.

 

[lovely]

Blessings everyone,

I thoroughly enjoyed studying God's Word in this thread. Cj, thanks for your encouraging response to my post.

I never realized the fall was about any of this...concerning the position of a woman being covered by her husband, and the position of man being under God's protective covering... both through obedience. It helps me to remember that God wants me to obey His commands, and not usurp the authority placed over me for His glory and my protection. What a blessing to be loved and protected in such a way! It has encouraged me to resist the temptation to have an independent spirit, and to not assert myself to handle things that God has commanded me to allow Him to handle...much worry is expelled over this fruitless behavior at times in my life. I have repented, and confess that sin to you all today. I was very blessed by this thread, and it has spurned me on to delve deeper into the ministry of being a woman that God has placed me in. Blessings

 

[andy153]

Ray Martinez wrote:

God said if you even touch it you will die.

can you show me where God says this please ?

andy153

 

[Ray Martinez]

RAY: The first sin = where the first question mark occurs in the Bible.

Opponent: Yes, we all agree but this sin is by Satan. The first human sin is in verse 4.

RAY: Negative. The topic issue asked where is the first sin in the Bible, not the first human sin.

But they occur virtually in the same place anyhow.

To entertain the questioning of what God said when YOU KNOW what He said = satanic inspired sin.

Now here comes more of your evasions......

Ray Martinez

 

[CatholicXian]

Not all translations have punctuation.

 

[Gary]

Good point CatholicXian.... in fact, the original (Hebrew) would NOT have had a question mark!

I would ask all to consider the following.... how did Satan know what God had said? Remember that Eve was NOT around when the instruction was given.

Read Genesis 2 and and the start of Genesis 3. How did Satan even know what he thought or said that God commanded?

The Interlinear NIV Hebrew-English Old Testament by John R. Kohlenberger III has Genesis 3:1 as the following:

• now-the-serpent he-was crafty more-than-all-of animal-of the-field which he-made Yahweh God and-he-said to the-woman indeed really he-said God not you-must-eat from-any-of tree-of the-garden Genesis 3:1

What was God's instruction?

• and-he-commanded Yahweh God to the-man to-say from-any-of tree-of the-garden to-eat you-may-eat but-from-tree-of the-knowledge good and-evil not you-must-eat from-him for in-day-of to-eat-you from-him to-die you-will-die Genesis 2:16-17

So the first lie by Satan is (1) Misquoting and part-quoting; altering the rule/prohibition.

Note: The Interlinear NIV Hebrew-English Old Testament uses the standard Hebrew text, Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia and offers a grammatically literal, word-for-word translation with English phrases reading in normal left-to-right order for rendering of specific Hebrew words.

:smt024

 

[andy153]

The first sin in the bible isn't even recorded in Genesis it's in Ezekiel chapter 28. Also, there is no mention in scripture of God having told Adam or Eve not to touch the fruit only not to eat of it.

andy153

 

[Gary]

Andy, I agree that there may have been sin between Genesis 1:31 (God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morningâ€â€the sixth day.) and Genesis 3:1 (Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?")

The New Testament mentions this in two places: 2 Peter 2:4 (For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment..) and Jude 1:6 (And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own homeâ€â€these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.)

This points to rebellion against God.

Scholars have also pointed to Isaiah 14:12-15 (How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! You said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High." But you are brought down to the grave, to the depths of the pit.) and Ezekiel 28:11-19 (The word of the LORD came to me: "Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: " 'You were the model of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone adorned you: ruby, topaz and emerald, chrysolite, onyx and jasper, sapphire, turquoise and beryl. Your settings and mountings were made of gold; on the day you were created they were prepared. You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones. You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you. Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, O guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones. Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor. So I threw you to the earth; I made a spectacle of you before kings. By your many sins and dishonest trade you have desecrated your sanctuaries. So I made a fire come out from you, and it consumed you, and I reduced you to ashes on the ground in the sight of all who were watching. All the nations who knew you are appalled at you; you have come to a horrible end and will be no more.' ") suggesting rebellion.

:wink:

 

[cj]

Eve entertained the question = her part in the first sin.

She should of ran the opposite direction as soon as she heard the question. Instead, she gave ear and considered it.

This is false.

No, its not.

Eve was not the head, and therefore should not have taken the lead.

It is not a sin to hear a question which casts doubt on God.

"to hear"..... interesting phrase.

But how about getting to the real matter, the one that answers the "why bother hear" question. Otherwise understood as motive.

To which God's word speaks clearly.....

Proverbs 1:7, "The fear of Jehovah is the beginning of knowledge; Fools despise wisdom and instruction..."

Proverbs 1:10, "My son, if sinners entice you, Do not consent."

Proverbs 1:11-15, "If they say, Come with us;....... My son, do not walk with them on this way; Keep your foot from their path.

Why did Eve even consider what the serpent was saying?

For this, lets look at what you continued with...

Nor is it a sin to answer such a question with God's real and true words.

Problem is, Eve did not answer with God's "real and true words."

Nor could she, as her motive/heart was not for God at that moment.

Real and true words must come out of a pure heart.

Christ gives us this example in his dealings with Satan---he doesn't flee but answers with God's powerful Word.

Jesus is God, the very Word made flesh.

Eve was not. Therefore she needed God in order that she might withstand the Devil. But the moment she came out from under God's ordained way, Eve was no match for this crafty one.

Eve does not sin until verse 4, when she starts to believe that the serpant is truthful and God is a liar.

This is simply not true. This is her second sin.

Once Eve chose to act independantly of her head she became easy prey for Satan, as Satan's first words were directed at Eve's soul, in particular her mind, and once man gives first place to the soul and thus ignores his spirit, Satan immediately has the upper hand.

The truth is, Eve was lost the moment she chose to respond to the serpent, and all that followed was the common way of the fall..... reasoning with the mind, desiring with the emotion, and thus influencing the will to carry out the act. This is the way of a soul that is no longer in submission to the head.

The first human sin is in verse 4.

No, the first human sin is in verse 1 and 2.



Understand very clearly.... God is not changing/transforming the way we respond, God is changing/transforming the very nature and life from which we respond.


In love,
cj

 

[cj]

But they occur virtually in the same place anyhow.

Sin is the manifestation of Satan's mind...... Where sin is, so is Satan and his mind.


In love,
cj

 

[cj]

The first sin in the bible isn't even recorded in Genesis it's in Ezekiel chapter 28. Also, there is no mention in scripture of God having told Adam or Eve not to touch the fruit only not to eat of it.

andy153

I also considered this, but my thought was that Ray wanted to get to the sin that encompassed man's participation, as the bible is for men.

I think you're right though, I don't believe there is any scripture that says not to touch the tree.

Yet, in a Nazarite's consecration there is the instruction that says not to touch that which is dead. And although this came a long time after Adam and Eve, God is one, and His thoughts are one.

Why would a person touch something that they had been claerly instructed not to eat?

Maybe in Eve adding the "not touch" part what we can see is on the one hand an understanding of how strongly the speaking regarding this tree was, and on the other hand, that she had considered the matter a little more than perhaps she should have.

But this is just conjecture and thus not really important.

In love,
cj

 

[cubedbee]

Eve entertained the question = her part in the first sin.

She should of ran the opposite direction as soon as she heard the question. Instead, she gave ear and considered it.

This is false.

No, its not.

Eve was not the head, and therefore should not have taken the lead.

What lead? The serpant asked her a question. She answered. Is a woman speaking without asking her husband's permission the usurption of authority?

It is not a sin to hear a question which casts doubt on God.

"to hear"..... interesting phrase.

But how about getting to the real matter, the one that answers the "why bother hear" question. Otherwise understood as motive.

To which God's word speaks clearly.....

Proverbs 1:7, "The fear of Jehovah is the beginning of knowledge; Fools despise wisdom and instruction..."

Proverbs 1:10, "My son, if sinners entice you, Do not consent."

Proverbs 1:11-15, "If they say, Come with us;....... My son, do not walk with them on this way; Keep your foot from their path.

Why did Eve even consider what the serpent was saying?

For this, lets look at what you continued with...

One doesn't need a motive to listen to a question. I am asked dozens of questions daily at work, none of which I desired to be asked or which I have a motive for hearing. The only "motivation" is the natural inclination to respond when you are spoken to. Which, as I clearly said, is not a sin.

Nor is it a sin to answer such a question with God's real and true words.

Problem is, Eve did not answer with God's "real and true words."

Nor could she, as her motive/heart was not for God at that moment.

Real and true words must come out of a pure heart.

Eve answered with the truth. Rereading the passage, you're right that they weren't the exact words of God, but she was not twisting and distorting them as the serpant was. She was refuting the serpant's deceptive question by truthfully stating God's command as she rememberd it.

God says " Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

Eve says "We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die."

Christ gives us this example in his dealings with Satan---he doesn't flee but answers with God's powerful Word.

Jesus is God, the very Word made flesh.

Eve was not. Therefore she needed God in order that she might withstand the Devil. But the moment she came out from under God's ordained way, Eve was no match for this crafty one.

Eve didn't come out of God's ordained way until she disobeyed him in verse 4.

Eve does not sin until verse 4, when she starts to believe that the serpant is truthful and God is a liar.

This is simply not true. This is her second sin.

Once Eve chose to act independantly of her head she became easy prey for Satan, as Satan's first words were directed at Eve's soul, in particular her mind, and once man gives first place to the soul and thus ignores his spirit, Satan immediately has the upper hand.

The truth is, Eve was lost the moment she chose to respond to the serpent, and all that followed was the common way of the fall..... reasoning with the mind, desiring with the emotion, and thus influencing the will to carry out the act. This is the way of a soul that is no longer in submission to the head.

This is simply false. It is not a sin for a woman to answer a question without first getting the approval of her husband. If you think so, you are sorely mistaken about God's roles for the genders and what authority a man actually has over his wife. Eve did nothing whatsoever wrong by answering the serpant.

 

[cj]

And so a useful for building up discussion begins to descend into the abyss.

Or hopefully not.

What lead? The serpant asked her a question.

This is to be ignorant of the serpents true intentions isn't it?

Satan was not "asking" Eve anything, Satan was attempting to draw Eve out from under her protective covering.

Or maybe you think Satan was interested to know from Eve what God had said.

But, you ask "What lead?".... so I'll answer.

Genesis 2:15, "And Jehovah God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and to keep it."

Genesis 2:18, "And Jehovah God said, It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper as his counterpart."

God's way..... man leads, wife helps. The wife's helping is the counterpart to the man's leading.

So, in response to you "What lead?" question, the lead of working and keeping the garden and all that was in it.

Tell me, if a question that cast doubt on a general's instruction to the army was asked of a private, what would the proper procedure be for this private take? Come up with an explanation himself or point the person asking the question to a higher authority? Or maybe the private would simply ignore the question.

She answered. Is a woman speaking without asking her husband's permission the usurption of authority?

Absolutely it is.

But don't get your knickers in a twist just yet, because my saying this by no means suggests that a woman cannot function in a partical way. What I am saying is that this functioning is always under the authority of her husband. This ia to maintain the oneness of the relationship.

Eve was confronted by something in the garden for which she was not empowered to deal.... as seen in the fall that followed.

This fall that followed, alone should be enough to tell us that there was some sort of breakdown in the ordained structure of God regarding how things were to be worked and kept in the garden.

Unless of course, you believe that God never intended Adam to be able to work and keep the garden.

One doesn't need a motive to listen to a question.

So now we move from the word "hear" to the word "listen"......

My friend, one most certainly needs a motive to hear or listen.

I am asked dozens of questions daily at work, none of which I desired to be asked or which I have a motive for hearing. The only "motivation" is the natural inclination to respond when you are spoken to. Which, as I clearly said, is not a sin.

The natural inclination?

And tell me, all of these dozens of questions, are there any that you do not first give to the Lord, and by this allow Him to be the one who responds?

For if there is one that you do not give to the Lord and thus allow Him to respond to, then you have just abided in sin.

Does a slave think and act for himself?

The motivation for a believer should always be according to the reality of what is best for the Lord's sake.

And likewise, Eve should have been of this mind also. And if she had been of this mind, a mind that said "What is the best thing to do for the Lord right now?", she would not have fallen, for God keeps those who are for Him.

Eve answered with the truth. Rereading the passage, you're right that they weren't the exact words of God, but she was not twisting and distorting them as the serpant was. She was refuting the serpant's deceptive question by truthfully stating God's command as she rememberd it.

Its most obvious that she did not remember them isn't it? So tell me, if she was for God and thus God for her, why didn't God remind her of exactly what He said?

Eve refuted nothing, as to refute something the truth must be spoken. And Eve did not speak the truth.

God says " Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

Eve says "We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die."

Eve should have simply called the man who God spoke these words to.

Eve didn't come out of God's ordained way until she disobeyed him in verse 4.

This is not what scripture shows us.

Scripture shows us that Eve was not capable of properly answering the serpents question, yet she thought she was. This alone tells us that Eve was in error even before she answered.

This is simply false. It is not a sin for a woman to answer a question without first getting the approval of her husband. If you think so, you are sorely mistaken about God's roles for the genders and what authority a man actually has over his wife. Eve did nothing whatsoever wrong by answering the serpant.

Actually, it is you who are in error.

If a woman acts outside of her husbands authority she is most certainly doing so outside of God.

Understand this, I don't mean that a wife needs to call her husband to find out if she can go to the grocery, or if she can give instructions to employees at her place of work. This would be foolish.

What I am saying is that she must know that both her going to the grocery and her giving instructions to employees, and anything else she does, is in line with the thoughts and concerns of her husband, which are in line with the thoughts and concerns of God.

A wife must know and submit to her husband and her husband must know and submit to God. This is God's ordained way.

It is most obvious from what we find in Genesis 3 and 4, that Adam and Eve were on different wavelenghts. And who does God present to us as having taken the lead in this? Eve, the weaker vessel.

The fact is, Eve responded to the serpent as a result of her already having a desire of her own.

Do you know what a court of law would call Eve's response?

Hearsay..... and of no value.


In love,
cj

 

[cubedbee]

This is to be ignorant of the serpents true intentions isn't it?

Satan was not "asking" Eve anything, Satan was attempting to draw Eve out from under her protective covering.

Or maybe you think Satan was interested to know from Eve what God had said.

We know Satan's motivations because they have been revealed to us in retrospect. Eve had no way of knowing the serpant's motivations, or even of knowing that the serpant was Satan.

But, you ask "What lead?".... so I'll answer.

Genesis 2:15, "And Jehovah God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and to keep it."

Genesis 2:18, "And Jehovah God said, It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper as his counterpart."

God's way..... man leads, wife helps. The wife's helping is the counterpart to the man's leading.

So, in response to you "What lead?" question, the lead of working and keeping the garden and all that was in it.

Tell me, if a question that cast doubt on a general's instruction to the army was asked of a private, what would the proper procedure be for this private take? Come up with an explanation himself or point the person asking the question to a higher authority? Or maybe the private would simply ignore the question.

I've never been in the military. However, I do work and am under the lead and complete authority of my boss. And, if someone in the company and asked me "Didn't your boss say this false thing", the proper procedure would indeed be to respond, "No, my boss said this instead."
Only if the person I was talking to wouldn't accept my testimony on what my boss said would I refer them to the boss. Eve failed in this second step---instead of going back to the boss, she accepted the lies of the serpant. But she acted completely properly on the first step.

Absolutely it is.

But don't get your knickers in a twist just yet, because my saying this by no means suggests that a woman cannot function in a partical way. What I am saying is that this functioning is always under the authority of her husband. This ia to maintain the oneness of the relationship.

Yes, Eve was under the authority of her husband. That doesn't mean she needs to get approval for every word uttered from her mouth.

Eve was confronted by something in the garden for which she was not empowered to deal.... as seen in the fall that followed.

This fall that followed, alone should be enough to tell us that there was some sort of breakdown in the ordained structure of God regarding how things were to be worked and kept in the garden.

Unless of course, you believe that God never intended Adam to be able to work and keep the garden.

Yes indeed, God never intended to Adam to remain in the garden, because he did not. Christ's plan of salvation has been in place since before the creation of the world, and the Fall is integral to that plan.

So now we move from the word "hear" to the word "listen"......

My friend, one most certainly needs a motive to hear or listen.

No, one needs ears to hear and listen. The sound goes in automatically--no motivation required.

And tell me, all of these dozens of questions, are there any that you do not first give to the Lord, and by this allow Him to be the one who responds?

For if there is one that you do not give to the Lord and thus allow Him to respond to, then you have just abided in sin.

If by allow the Lord to respond you mean I stand there and remain physically silent waiting for the Lord's voice to respond to the person talking to me, then no. If you don't mean this, what exactly do you mean? How should I allow the Lord to respond to "What's the average age in the under 50 HMO?" I understand that we must always make sure that what we say is consistent with the Holy Spirit residing within us, but that is not to say that the answers are given to us by the Lord.

Does a slave think and act for himself?

Yes, they do.

The motivation for a believer should always be according to the reality of what is best for the Lord's sake.

And likewise, Eve should have been of this mind also. And if she had been of this mind, a mind that said "What is the best thing to do for the Lord right now?", she would not have fallen, for God keeps those who are for Him.

I entirely disagree. Eve did not know the future. She did not know the serpant was trying to get her to Fall. She was presented with a creature she had never met before asking if God had really commanded her something. Her response is exactly what I would have though was the best thing for the Lord---rebutting the question with "No, this is what God really said" I always think the best thing is to leap to the defense of my Lord---if I heard anyone at my office misrepresnting God or what he had said, I would certainly not remain silent, I would rebut them.

Its most obvious that she did not remember them isn't it? So tell me, if she was for God and thus God for her, why didn't God remind her of exactly what He said?

I certainly don't know God's motivations. I am for God, and God is for me, yet I don't remember exactly every word of God. Do you?

Eve refuted nothing, as to refute something the truth must be spoken. And Eve did not speak the truth.

Eve truthfully said that God had given them permission to eat of every tree of the garden except the tree of knowledge in the center and that if they ate from this tree they would die. This is the truth according to God, and Eve spoke it. The only "lie" Eve told was that they couldn't even touch it. Of course, I think this "lie" is more likely an honest mistake, as it does nothing to undermine's God's authority or command, but rather strengthens it.

Eve should have simply called the man who God spoke these words to.

That's your opinion. You haven't made a case that her not doing so is a sin.

Scripture shows us that Eve was not capable of properly answering the serpents question, yet she thought she was. This alone tells us that Eve was in error even before she answered.

What alone tells us that Eve was in error? The fact that she didn't have perfect memory? The fact that she couldn't predict the future? These are not sins, but simply limitations of humanity.

It is most obvious from what we find in Genesis 3 and 4, that Adam and Eve were on different wavelenghts.

Not at all obvious to me. If I had a wife, and she had done something against my will, I would rebuke her and let her know. Adam certainyl didn't rebuke Eve, but instead willingly accepted the fruit from her. The fact that he didn't is strong evidence that she and im were on the very same wavelength.

And who does God present to us as having taken the lead in this? Eve, the weaker vessel.

Once again, God presents the serpant as taking the lead in this. The serpant approached Eve, not the other way around. I would agree with you if she sought him out and questioned him about the tree, but the reverse happened.

The fact is, Eve responded to the serpent as a result of her already having a desire of her own.

The fact is, you don't know that's the fact. I think Eve responded as a result of her loyalty to God and her desire to correct was was spoken falsely about them.

 

[cj]

We know Satan's motivations because they have been revealed to us in retrospect. Eve had no way of knowing the serpant's motivations, or even of knowing that the serpant was Satan.

And does your knowing Satan and his motivation stop you from sinning?

No, it doesn't, does it....... thereby invalidating your argument.

Actually, its quite ironic, your argument is straight from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Cubedbee, knowing something is not a solution..... knowing Someone and becoming one with that Someone is the only solution.

I've never been in the military. However, I do work and am under the lead and complete authority of my boss. And, if someone in the company and asked me "Didn't your boss say this false thing", the proper procedure would indeed be to respond, "No, my boss said this instead."

How though could you be sure that your boss did not say both things?

Would it not have been more thorough and accurate to have first asked your boss if he had said both?

Only if the person I was talking to wouldn't accept my testimony on what my boss said would I refer them to the boss.

See, you hold yourself to high. How foolish would you look if your boss came back with this person and said to you that he had said both things and had a perfectly valid reason for doing so.

Knowing for sure is always better than second-guessing.

Eve failed in this second step---instead of going back to the boss, she accepted the lies of the serpant. But she acted completely properly on the first step.

No, the truth is, it is as a result of her first sin that Satan had already captured the ground in her; the poison was already in her.

And further, your reasoning makes no sense....... if she was wise enough not to be taken by Satan with his first question, then how come this wisdom left her in considering Satan's second question?

Yes indeed, God never intended to Adam to remain in the garden, because he did not. Christ's plan of salvation has been in place since before the creation of the world, and the Fall is integral to that plan.

Well, you sound like you're saying that God set Adam and Eve up for the fall..... and I'm happy to say that He didn't.

What a terrible thing it would be for God to have Christ hidden from Adam and Eve just when they needed Christ to save them. This doesn't sound like God.

No, one needs ears to hear and listen. The sound goes in automatically--no motivation required.

A passing sound is not the same as hearing and listening. But if you want to play word games go right ahead.

If by allow the Lord to respond you mean I stand there and remain physically silent waiting for the Lord's voice to respond to the person talking to me, then no. If you don't mean this, what exactly do you mean? How should I allow the Lord to respond to "What's the average age in the under 50 HMO?" I understand that we must always make sure that what we say is consistent with the Holy Spirit residing within us, but that is not to say that the answers are given to us by the Lord.

Why not? Wasn't this the way Jesus lived His life? Didn't He say that He would give us the words to speak?

Or do you simply not believe that He can and will?

Yes, they do.

No, not in the sense of what we are discussing. A slave awaits his master, and then, at the masters instruction, this slave will uses his being to accomplish the will of his master.

I entirely disagree. Eve did not know the future. She did not know the serpant was trying to get her to Fall. She was presented with a creature she had never met before asking if God had really commanded her something. Her response is exactly what I would have though was the best thing for the Lord---rebutting the question with "No, this is what God really said" I always think the best thing is to leap to the defense of my Lord---if I heard anyone at my office misrepresnting God or what he had said, I would certainly not remain silent, I would rebut them.

"WHAT I WOULD HAVE THOUGHT WAS THE BEST THING"

And thus we have the fall..... over and over and over again.

Tell me, would you have come up with the sacrifice of your only beloved Son in order that the world might be saved by His resurrection life?

And this Son..... did He not remain quiet at His own judgement by men?

But you, perhaps knowing the best thing to do would have opened your mouth for Him.

And,..... so Eve opened her mouth, like you would,..... but then what....... she fell....... perhaps like you would also. Or are you different, now that you know who Satan is?

Sin like Eve or no sin like Jesus? Speak like Eve, or speak only when God gives you the words like He did with Jesus.


How fearful we are of not speaking our mind.

I certainly don't know God's motivations. I am for God, and God is for me, yet I don't remember exactly every word of God. Do you?

We have His written word, His Spirit, and the fellowship of the saints to know. This is what He has given us, therefore He must believe it is adequate. So why can't we also believe this.

Eve truthfully said that God had given them permission to eat of every tree of the garden except the tree of knowledge in the center and that if they ate from this tree they would die. This is the truth according to God, and Eve spoke it. The only "lie" Eve told was that they couldn't even touch it. Of course, I think this "lie" is more likely an honest mistake, as it does nothing to undermine's God's authority or command, but rather strengthens it.

Nothing that originate with man can strengthen God.

In fact, scripture tells us the opposite, anything other than God creates a mixture which is impure and thus unacceptable to God.

Adding to God's word is a big "NONO", and exposes the prior condition of Eve's heart.

That's your opinion. You haven't made a case that her not doing so is a sin.

I don't need to, as throughout scripture this principle is constantly revealed as God's way.

What alone tells us that Eve was in error? The fact that she didn't have perfect memory? The fact that she couldn't predict the future? These are not sins, but simply limitations of humanity.

God isn't manifested in human limitations.... and yet, God created us in His image and likeness, and even offered us His eternal life by giving us a tree of life to eat from.

Wasn't it God who said "Lest they eat from it an becomes as us."?

This would tell me that the only thing missing from man being exactly like God is the missing eternal life.

Not at all obvious to me. If I had a wife, and she had done something against my will, I would rebuke her and let her know. Adam certainyl didn't rebuke Eve, but instead willingly accepted the fruit from her. The fact that he didn't is strong evidence that she and im were on the very same wavelength.

No, not really.

I sin and you sin, but we are not necessarily on the same wavelength are we?

Once again, God presents the serpant as taking the lead in this. The serpant approached Eve, not the other way around. I would agree with you if she sought him out and questioned him about the tree, but the reverse happened.

You're looking at the outward, God looks at the inward.

Why did Satan think he could stumble Eve?

The fact is, you don't know that's the fact. I think Eve responded as a result of her loyalty to God and her desire to correct was was spoken falsely about them.

You can think whatever you want...... but this does not mean that your thoughts and scripture line up.


In love,
cj