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Where is the Gandhi of Islam?

G

Gary

Guest
Where is the Gandhi of Islam?
By Charles Moore
(Filed: 09/07/2005)

Yes, there was a Blitz spirit. As we waited in large crowds for a train out of London on Thursday afternoon, everyone was peaceful, cooperative, calm and slightly more jokey than usual. A woman near me in the carriage was talking on her mobile phone: "There's nothing left for them to bomb," she said cheerfully. "You'll find the sausage rolls at the bottom of the fridge."

And, yes, the emergency services were magnificent. They had trained; they were coordinated; they were ready. The strength of a civilisation is shown not only in its great monuments and works of art, or in its famous people: it appears also in the instant, instinctive behaviour of millions at a moment of crisis. By this measure, London is part of a great civilisation.

Yet there seems to me to be a radical disjunction between our heroic capacity to deal with the immediate effects of terrorism and our collective refusal to confront what lies behind it. The effects of this disjunction are, literally, fatal.

The Mayor of London, Ken Livingstone, was in Singapore on Thursday, having helped London's successful Olympic bid. His stricken face showed his shock, and of course he condemned the attacks. Then he analysed them.

They were not, he said, attacks "against the mighty and the powerful", but against "working-class Londoners". Would they have been all right, one wondered, if they had been against the mighty and powerful, or if they had cleverly found a way of killing only middle-class Londoners?

Then Mr Livingstone said: "This is not an ideology or even a perverted faith." Why did he want to say that? How - if, as the authorities tell us, the attacks were carried out by Islamist extremists - could this be true?

The main spokesman for the Metropolitan Police on Thursday was Deputy Assistant Commissioner Brian Paddick. He also complained about attacks on "purely innocent members of the public", thereby making one think that there might be other people (police? soldiers? politicians?), who are not purely innocent and should have been attacked instead. Asked about the nature of the terrorists, Mr Paddick said: "Islam and terrorism don't go together."

It is true that the vast majority of Muslims are not terrorists, or involved in terrorism, and this needs to be said strongly if people assert otherwise. But if the Metropolitan Police really believe what Brian Paddick says, if they really, truly think that the words "Islam" and "terrorism" must not be linked, then we have little hope of catching the killers, of understanding how the terrorism works, or of preventing new atrocities.

You can show this with a simple comparison. When Britain was afflicted by Irish republican terrorism, most Irish people repudiated that terrorism. It was nevertheless the case that the great majority of the terrorists - more than 95 per cent - were Irish, or of Irish origin, and they drew overwhelmingly on Irish people to help and hide them.

This was not a funny coincidence. It was because the IRA preached a doctrine about Ireland and called on the loyalty of a perverted version of Irishness. Therefore, the words "Irish" and "terrorist" went together, hard though this was on the majority of Irish people. The Brian Paddicks of the day would have been appallingly negligent if they had not concentrated their investigations among the Irish. And the vigilance of the public, which the police then and now rightly call for, inevitably directed itself towards Irish neighbours, Irish accents, Irish pubs.

So it must be with Muslims in Britain. In fact, the situation is more serious because we are dealing with a religion, not merely a national aspiration, and the demands of a religion are more absolute than anything else. If fanatics can persuade people that their religion insists that they kill others (and often themselves) in its service, then they will obey. And whereas the IRA, though utterly sadistic and fanatical, kept in mind a political aim which, once achieved, would mean that they need kill no longer, the religious fanatic lacks even this check on his behaviour.

From time to time, perhaps, he will kill for a specific reason - to take power in one country, to drive foreign troops out of another - but, in principle, there is no end to his killing until everyone who does not share his particular version of truth is exterminated.

What strikes one again and again about the reaction of the public authorities, of commentators, of the media, is the terrible lethargy about studying what it is we are up against. We are dealing with an extreme interpretation of one of the great religions of the world.

We flap around, looking for moderates and giving them knighthoods, making placatory noises, putting bits of Islam on to the multi-faith menu in schools, banishing Bibles from hospital beds, trying to criminalise the expression of "religious hatred", blaming George Bush and Tony Blair. But if we do not know the way the faith in question works, its history, its quarrels, its laws and demands, we will not have the faintest chance of distinguishing the true moderate from the fellow-traveller or of bearing down on the fanaticism.

If you look at the Koran, you will find many glorifications of violence. In Sura No 8, for example, God is quoted as saying: "I shall cast terror into the hearts of the infidels. Strike off their heads, strike off the very tips of their fingers!" This punishment comes to them for having "defied God and His apostle". It seems reasonable to ask Muslims what this sort of remark means in the modern world.

Some will counter that there are plenty of equally nasty dictums in the Old Testament. This is true - though it is surely significant that they are very much harder to find in the New Testament. History is full of violent deeds done in the name of the Christian God.

But it is an important fact about Christianity in the past two or three centuries that it has conducted a great reinterpretation of these texts and of how the faithful should follow them. The struggle against the enemy in the Book of Joshua, say, or in Judges is now seen as a strictly spiritual one. The idea that these are divine 007 licences to kill has been explicitly repudiated.

Has the equivalent happened in Islam? Certainly, most Muslim leaders advocate peace and most are surely sincere in doing so. But push a bit harder, and you encounter some interesting problems.

I have asked, for example, if the Muslim Council of Britain, the mainstream umbrella organisation in this country, will condemn the killing of British troops in Iraq. They will not do so in absolute terms. They prefer instead to condemn the war itself, which is by no means the same thing.

Take a case from the dramas on Thursday. One heartening tableau was of the Bishop of Stepney, Stephen Oliver, appearing with Mohammed Abdul Bari from the East London Mosque, both condemning the attacks. But if you look up Mohammed Abdul Bari, you find that he welcomed to the opening of the London Muslim Centre Sheikh Abdul Rahman al Sudais, the Saudi-government-appointed imam of the Grand Mosque in Mecca.

In Mecca two years ago, al Sudais described Jews as "scum of the earth", "rats of the world" and "monkeys and pigs who should be annihilated". Yet, criticise al Sudais, and Mohammed Abdul Bari leaps furiously to his defence.

As I write, I have beside me an article that appeared during our recent election campaign in Muslim Weekly. By Sheikh Dr Abdalqadir as-Sufi, it calls for the replacement of British parliamentary democracy with "a new civilisation based on the worship of Allah", attacks the Conservatives for being "in the hands of an illegal Jewish immigrant from Romania" and speaks of the "near-demented judaic banking elite".

These views are expressed by an educated Muslim in a Muslim publication. Are these Muslim views, non-Muslim views, anti-Muslim views?

The mayor of our bombed city has himself got involved with Muslim leaders who say some interesting things. Last year, Mr Livingstone extended a warm welcome in London to Yusuf al-Qaradawi, a mainstream, world-famous spiritual leader based in Qatar.

Qaradawi has supported suicide bombing against Israelis, the treatment of all Jews as legitimate targets, the whipping of homosexuals and the killing of all Americans - civilian and military - in Iraq. Surely, Ken recognises an ideology here, and a faith of sorts? Yet he praised, rather than condemned, and so now, when the logical extension of such ideas hits King's Cross and the Edgware Road and kills dozens of his voters, he has to say that such deeds arise from no belief at all.

There seem to be two broad reasons why many Muslim leaders appear unable or unwilling to break absolutely with the teachings that give cover to violence. The first is that their religion is much more literal and much more political than modern Christianity. Its Prophet was a political and military leader.

The faith Mohammed taught does not just hope that the world will become Muslim. It wants all human society and politics to be governed by religious law: it draws no distinction between the secular and religious sphere (except to condemn the secular). Therefore, Muslim leaders find it very difficult to resist the hotheads who say that Sharia - the divine law - should be imposed wherever possible.

In addition, the religion is absolute in its attitude to particular bits of territory. It is forbidden, for example, that any other religion be practised in the Arabian peninsula, because that land is considered sacred to Islam. Therefore, it is hard for a "moderate" to oppose the second-class citizenship of Christians or Jews in Muslim lands, or to say that "infidels" fighting in Muslim countries should not be murdered - even when they are his fellow citizens in a Western country.

When someone like bin Laden says that Islam should confront the "Cross-worshippers" and the "Zionists", he is making a claim in which politics and religion dangerously reinforce one another - a claim which most Muslims might not like, but which most of their leaders cannot find quite the right words to resist.

The second reason is that the leaders are frightened. In private conversations with the moderates, one is always told that they are under "enormous pressure", that they risk losing control of their own people, and therefore they cannot say very fierce things against the extremists. One must accept that this pressure exists, which only goes to show how serious the problem is.

The Bishop of Stepney, say, would not have to look over his shoulder before he dared to condemn Christian suicide bombers (if there were any). But if his friend Mohammed Abdul Bari wants to condemn Muslim ones in Israel, then his life - or certainly his career - might be threatened.

So we have in our midst a religious minority in a state of ferment, and somewhere inside it a number of people (though a tiny proportion of the whole) who want to kill the rest of us. Now, it would seem, they or their foreign allies have succeeded. This country has suffered a greater land-based terrorist death toll than it has ever known before. Instead of subjecting our entire population to the loss of liberties and increase of bureaucratic power which identity cards involve, we should develop a strategy that works out much more precisely where the danger lies, and seeks it out.

Are we satisfied that our immigration and asylum system, and our ceding of much of it to European conventions, keeps a proper check on who comes in? Do our own laws give too ready an entitlement to people to join or marry family here? Do our judiciary now interpret the rights of immigrants and asylum-seekers so generously as to give the country almost no protection from those who abuse those rights?

What about the methods of the police? Sir Ian Blair, the Metropolitan Police Commissioner, has shown himself so obsessed with the implementation of the recommendations of the Macpherson report that followed the Stephen Lawrence case that he has been officially criticised for "hanging out to dry" three officers falsely accused of racism.

His approach to policing Muslims appears to be to seek the consent of those he supposes to be community leaders before "going in". It is surely not right that they should have a veto on whether or not an inquiry is pursued, and it must be asked whether all of them could be trusted not to protect some of those who merit police attention.

The methods matter, too. Although offence should always be avoided if possible, if the police will not use dogs in their investigations of Muslims (as they may do with almost anyone else), and if they undertake never to go into the religious parts of Islamic buildings, then some people with things to hide will hide them.

If the Blairs and Paddicks won't look at the link between faith and terrorism, how can they ever learn from the evidence in the websites and madrassehs and sermons which incites the trouble and brings like-minded extremists together?

And what about public vigilance? Yesterday, the Met's press conference called for public vigilance - but would you want to go and tell Sir Ian your anxieties about a Muslim neighbour? Might you worry about being turned away as a racist?

The most important question is for Muslims, and the authorities' attitude towards them. Embedded in modern government are too many advisers who believe in a quietist policy. To them, the most important thing is to avoid a "backlash" against Muslims. But the truth is that the backlash only threatens because the terror strikes. Mired in ignorance, our Government (let alone the Opposition) has little idea how to find the trends in Islam that could really improve the life of our country, and run with them.

It is only when you start thinking about what we are not getting from leaders of British Muslims, and indeed Muslim religious leadership throughout the world, that you start to see how much needs doing. The moderates are not pressed hard for anything more than a general condemnation of the extremists.

When did you last hear criticisms of named extremist groups and organisations by Muslim leaders, or support for their expulsion, imprisonment or extradition? How often do you see fatwas issued against suicide bombers and other terrorists, or statements by learned men declaring that people who commit such deeds will go to hell?

When do Muslim leaders and congregations insist that a particular imam leave his mosque because of the poison that he disseminates every Friday? When did a British Muslim last go after a Muslim who advocates or practises violence with anything like the zeal with which so many went after Salman Rushdie?

Why is not more stigma attached to the Muslims who are murdering other Muslims every day in Iraq and the Middle East?

What communal protection is offered to those Muslims who really are brave and confront Islamist violence, or the poor treatment of women, or call for democracy in the Middle East? How much do mainstream political parties with Muslim councillors and candidates really insist on their religious moderation and co-opt them to extrude the bad people lurking within their communities?

I understand and accept that there are many moderates among British Muslims, but I want to know why Britain gets so pitifully little to show for their moderation.

When a nation, a race, a political movement, a group of workers, the followers of a religion have legitimate grievances, there generally arises amongst them a champion who can command respect for his advocacy of peace, his willingness to fight without weapons and to win by moral authority. There may be many such grievances for Muslims in Britain, and in the West, but we are still waiting for the Gandhi or the Martin Luther King to give them the right voice.

We all love it when the British people shrug their shoulders and move stoically on in the face of attack. It is a powerful national myth, and a true one. But it contains within it a great danger - a self-fulfilling belief that there is nothing to be done to avert future disaster. That's not the Blitz spirit - what made London's suffering in 1941 worthwhile was that, in the end, we won.

telegraph.co.uk
Source: -here-
 
So you too believe that
Jews as "scum of the earth", "rats of the world" and "monkeys and pigs who should be annihilated".

Frost-X/ILoveGod said:
And he is absaloutly right .
Animals praise God everyday - Jews don't .

:o :o :o

Please tell me how animals praise God. Give a few examples.

Do black dogs also praise God?

From Bukhari
Vol. 4, #540 - Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar: Allah's Apostle ordered that the dogs should be killed.

From the Hadith of Abu Dawud -
#2839 - Abd Allah B. Mughaffal reported the apostle of Allah as saying: Were dogs not a species of creature I should command that they all be killed; but kill every pure black one.

The Hadith's note for #2839 says, "The prophet did not order the killing of all the dogs, for some are to be retained for hunting and watching. He ordered to kill the jet black ones. They might be more mischievous among them.

:o :o :o

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tell us Frost-X/ILoveGod.... what do you think of the bombings in London?

:-? :-?
 
Gary,

this is you .

you just have to argue !!!

Did i say ALL ANIMALS ?

Anyways i didn't listen to what you just said .
----------------------------------------------------------------------

And what do i think of the London Attack ?

hmmmmmmmm

I think it is wrong and it is agaisn't Islam and if it was done by a Man who claims to be a muslim then hes a Hypocrit muslim not a real practicing one .


A real practicing Muslim would never do such a thing.

It is wrong and Agaisn't islam and i am agaisnt it even

it is not right to kill innocent people and God never likes the starter of wars .
 
Frost-X/ILoveGod said:
....it is not right to kill innocent people and God never likes the starter of wars .

Then God must not like Muhammad!

9:123 "O you who believe, fight those of the unbelievers near you and let them see how harsh you can be. Know that Allah is with the righteous." (Fakhry’s translation)

The historical context of this verse takes place after a military expedition in early 630, so it is late in Muhammad’s life (he dies of a fever in AD 632). Some scholars regard Sura 9 as the last sura (chapter) to be revealed from on high. Therefore, it sets many policies for Muslims today, and is often interpreted as abrogating or canceling previous verses, even peaceful ones. During the military expedition, Muhammad led a large army of 30,000 soldiers to the northern city of Tabuk in order to confront the Byzantine Christians. This is clearly a Muslim Crusade, centuries before the European Crusades. The Byzantines failed to show up, so Muhammad’s Crusade was fruitless, except he managed to extort a tax from northern tribes for the "privilege" of living under Islam, that is, for not being attacked again. After the Muslims returned, Muhammad scolded the "hypocrites" who had stayed behind and failed to support him. Then he turns to those people who stirred up strife in the community by expressing doubt in Muhammad’s revelations; they needed to be silenced. This latter groups is whom he attacks in 9:123â€â€the "unbelievers." He may wage war on them, without flinching.

Another aspect of the historical context should be considered. Muhammad urges his fighters forward in order to kill the unbelievers, even if the latter belong to the fighters’ own family, as seen in the words "near you" in v. 123, which may imply a relational nearness as well as a geographical one. Be that as it may, the Muslim commentator S. Abdul A’la Maududi informs us:

The Command [to fight] has been repeated at [the] end [of Sura 9] in order to impress on the Muslims the importance of the matter and to urge them to do Jihad and crush these internal enemies, without paying the least regard to the racial, family, and social relations that had been proving a binding force with them.

It is clear, then, that Muslims should not pay even "the least regard to the ... family ... relations," a "binding force" that had encumbered the expansion of Islam. Muslims have been ordered, therefore, to fight their family members in a physical way, in other words, to hit them with sharp swords. Why does Muhammad order this? According to Maududi, it is to "crush these internal enemies."

The literary context of 9:123 shows strife with those refusing to support or even opposing Muhammad. For example, in verse 121 Muhammad complains that the hypocrites do not spend any money in Allah’s cause (code for fighting), so Allah will recompense them accordingly. Next, Muhammad instructs his troops in verse 122 that not all Muslims should go out on a campaign of jihad, but some should stay behind to teach Islam, so they may warn people to beware of evil. Finally, in the verses after 9:123 Muhammad condemns the unbelievers for mocking his revelations. Thus, the literary context does not consist of peace and friendship with Muhammad’s opponents, and that is why he goes on the warpath and to deal with them harshly in 9:123.

The elements within 9:123, the third step in our exegetical method, yield two hard truths. First, Muhammad uses the Arabic word qital (three-consonant root is q-t-l), which always means physically fighting and killing and warringâ€â€no other meaning is available. This word is usually stronger than jihad (three consonant root is j-h-d), which Muhammad uses in 9:73, a companion verse to 9:123:

9:73 "O Prophet, fight [j-h-d] the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be stern with them. Their abode is Hell, and what a terrible fate!" (Fakhry)

Thus, jihad and qital can barely be distinguished, since the means (swords) and the goal (submission or death) of fighting are the same in both verses. These two verses alone should lay to rest forever the frequent claim that jihad means only a spiritual struggle against sin in the soul. Second, not only does Muhammad say that his jihadists should fight the unbelievers (and hypocrites in verse 73), but the Muslim warriors should do so harshly or sternly. This lends a severity to the verse which is difficult to take inâ€â€along with the eternal fate of the unbelievers, which is very, very often stated in the Quran in exactly the same way as verse 73 states itâ€â€short and quick and severe.

:o

-source-
 
ILoveGod said:
Gary
In Mecca two years ago, al Sudais described Jews as "scum of the earth", "rats of the world" and "monkeys and pigs who should be annihilated". Yet, criticise al Sudais, and Mohammed Abdul Bari leaps furiously to his defence.

And he is absaloutly right .

Animals praise God everyday - Jews don't .
AND JUST HOW DO YOU KNOW? DOES RATS PRAISE GOD EVERYDAY HAVE YOU EVER HEARD ONE RAT PRAISE GOD? FOR YOUR INFO JEWS PRAISE THE HOLY ONE OF YISRAEL EVERY DAY FROM SUN UP TO SUN DOWN AND THEIR GOD IS THE ONLY ONE THE HOLY ONE NOT LIKE THE ONE YOU CALL GOD BCOZ THE ONE YOU CALL GOD IS IN FACT A IDOL A MOON GOD SATAN HIMSELF SO
AND BE VERY CAREFUL WHAT YOU ACCUSES THE JEWS OF THEY ARE STILL THE APPLE OF GODS EYE WHEREAS MUSLIMS ARE THE APPLE OF SATANS EYE, AND Y0UR SUPPOSE TO LOVE GOD YOU MUST BE KIDDING ME WITH AN ATTITUDE LIKE YOURS I HAVE A HARD TIME TO SE ANYTHING REMOTELY GOD LOVE IN YOU



And it's bcoz jews are behind everything and the media and the attacks and they frame it to the muslims .

we are not stupid ( remember in the dark ages we lead the world ) but they came along and stole our ideas and now look whos leading .
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gary
[quote:577e6]If you look at the Koran, you will find many glorifications of violence. In Sura No 8, for example, God is quoted as saying: "I shall cast terror into the hearts of the infidels. Strike off their heads, strike off the very tips of their fingers!" This punishment comes to them for having "defied God and His apostle". It seems reasonable to ask Muslims what this sort of remark means in the modern world.

Yes and he did cast Terror in their heart ( IN THE TIME OF WAR THAT THEY STARTED ) and We won !!

but now God is casting Terror on the muslim bcoz we turned away from Islam .

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gosh gary your so ignorant of Islam and posting things from sites .

i mean your really ignorant .

I dunno what your trying to get out of this things but it just won't work .


What God ays Goes no matter what happens .

he does not accept a religion other than islam and you remember this .



at least i have a mind not to believe in a religion that has nothing documented or written.

your boooks are fake and with unknows aurthors .

-----------------------------------

you guys don't know nothing of islam but what lies you see on tv and Net .

and over this your saying does god say this . does god say that [ in islam ] and your quoting suras .

Common man .

what are you trying to pull ??

what god says is correct no mattet what your or satan says[/quote:577e6]
 
Yeshua

You Don't have to say all this Coz am not listning to it .



Rat do praise God but you just don't hear them coz ur not a RAT and you don't understand them .


---------------------------------------------

And your soFlamming... bcoz you didn't read about our God and what we say about him .

stop this Flamming... about the moon god or satan himself .


oh my 6 year old brother Flamming...


in the quran god says i created the heavens and the earth and the MOON and the stars but do not worship anything but me .

Flamming...

keep this Flamming...

I Got no problem on my side coz i am worshipping God who is on top of the skies in his thrown and he sees and knows everything and he created all the prophets and angels and everything else .

Flamming...

Flamming...

Can you at least try to behave... :evil:
 
ILoveGod said:
Gary
In Mecca two years ago, al Sudais described Jews as "scum of the earth", "rats of the world" and "monkeys and pigs who should be annihilated". Yet, criticise al Sudais, and Mohammed Abdul Bari leaps furiously to his defence.

And he is absaloutly right .

Animals praise God everyday - Jews don't .
And people wonder why there was an alliance between certain Muslims and Hitler (long before Zionism was the excuse).

ILoveGod said:
And it's bcoz jews are behind everything and the media and the attacks and they frame it to the muslims .
Right, where I have I heard this before....

ILoveGod said:
we are not stupid ( remember in the dark ages we lead the world ) but they came along and stole our ideas and now look whos leading .
In point of fact, Islam stole chemistry and science from its Asian conquests; music, architecture and philosophy from the Byzantines whom they conquered- not to mention what Islam stole from Africa. The Mosques are patterned after Hagia Sophia (built 150 years before Islam flourished); the minarets are based upon the poles that Stylite monks perched upon to give prayer; the call to prayer is based upon Jewish and Byzantine prayer chants....
There were no 'Dark Ages' in the East- until Islam became the slave master over the Greeks in Byzantium and in the Balkans.

There is NOTHING that Islam has that it has not stolen, son.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

ILoveGod said:
Gary
If you look at the Koran, you will find many glorifications of violence. In Sura No 8, for example, God is quoted as saying: "I shall cast terror into the hearts of the infidels. Strike off their heads, strike off the very tips of their fingers!" This punishment comes to them for having "defied God and His apostle". It seems reasonable to ask Muslims what this sort of remark means in the modern world.

Yes and he did cast Terror in their heart ( IN THE TIME OF WAR THAT THEY STARTED ) and We won !!

but now God is casting Terror on the muslim bcoz we turned away from Islam .
I note how the call to war and the call to true Islam are one in the same.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ILoveGod said:
What God ays Goes no matter what happens .

he does not accept a religion other than islam and you remember this .
I know that Islam accepts no other religion. Islamicists now want to be able to implement punishment for apostasy in Western nations. That is to say, the Muslim in Canada or America punished for leaving Islam.

If Islam is so compelling, and growing as they claim, why do Muslims so fear free conscience among its adherents?



ILoveGod said:
at least i have a mind not to believe in a religion that has nothing documented or written.

your boooks are fake and with unknows aurthors .
Our earliest fragments date to about the same proximity of time that Islams earliest textual pieces date to (ie, roughly a century after the writing). The Old Testament scriptures found at qumran show none of the evolution/change expected- in fact, Isaiah 53; the prophecy of the suffering servant, remains inviolate before Christ.

-----------------------------------

IloveGod said:
you guys don't know nothing of islam but what lies you see on tv and Net .

and over this your saying does god say this . does god say that [ in islam ] and your quoting suras .

Common man .

what are you trying to pull ??

what god says is correct no mattet what your or satan says
I know some American Muslims who have begun to deprogram, and they're cool. What I see on the net- like from you for example- makes the hair stand up on the back of my neck. You are a slave, and you want to make other slaves.

I will not be assimilated.

If Islam's Allah is so determined that people should not chose for themselves free of compulsion and compunction, why does He not simply send angels to bow the necks of men?

The answer is that Islam's Allah is not Yahweh, and has no power except through the seduction of minds. Now who does that remind me of?
 
ILoveGod said:
Gary
In Mecca two years ago, al Sudais described Jews as "scum of the earth", "rats of the world" and "monkeys and pigs who should be annihilated". Yet, criticise al Sudais, and Mohammed Abdul Bari leaps furiously to his defence.

And he is absaloutly right .

Animals praise God everyday - Jews don't .

And it's bcoz jews are behind everything and the media and the attacks and they frame it to the muslims .

we are not stupid ( remember in the dark ages we lead the world ) but they came along and stole our ideas and now look whos leading .
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gary
[quote:23751]If you look at the Koran, you will find many glorifications of violence. In Sura No 8, for example, God is quoted as saying: "I shall cast terror into the hearts of the infidels. Strike off their heads, strike off the very tips of their fingers!" This punishment comes to them for having "defied God and His apostle". It seems reasonable to ask Muslims what this sort of remark means in the modern world.

Yes and he did cast Terror in their heart ( IN THE TIME OF WAR THAT THEY STARTED ) and We won !!

but now God is casting Terror on the muslim bcoz we turned away from Islam .

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gosh gary your so ignorant of Islam and posting things from sites .

i mean your really ignorant .

I dunno what your trying to get out of this things but it just won't work .


What God ays Goes no matter what happens .

he does not accept a religion other than islam and you remember this .



at least i have a mind not to believe in a religion that has nothing documented or written.

your boooks are fake and with unknows aurthors .

-----------------------------------

you guys don't know nothing of islam but what lies you see on tv and Net .

and over this your saying does god say this . does god say that [ in islam ] and your quoting suras .

Common man .

what are you trying to pull ??

what god says is correct no mattet what your or satan says[/quote:23751]Oh the pity I have for those who fight against the covenant people of God. Your curses on the Jews will come back to haunt you. Ishmael was the cursed one of God and you fight against the blessings given Isaac. Truly not a good idea.
 
Re: Yeshua

ILoveGod said:
You Don't have to say all this Coz am not listning to it .



Rat do praise God but you just don't hear them coz ur not a RAT and you don't understand them .


---------------------------------------------

And your so stupid bcoz you didn't read about our God and what we say about him .

stop this child crap talk about the moon god or satan himself .


oh my 6 year old brother is luaghing too and saying who is this dum person .


in the quran god says i created the heavens and the earth and the MOON and the stars but do not worship anything but me .

what the heck is this moon crap your saying ??

keep this crazy talk to your self.

I Got no problem on my side coz i am worshipping God who is on top of the skies in his thrown and he sees and knows everything and he created all the prophets and angels and everything else .

is it you who is blind and not knowing nothing .

you read false books that the AURTHOR is unknown and you believe .


cut the crap
You can consider this another warning for flaming and attacking people. YOU CANNOT CALL PEOPLE STUPID!! You may NOT call names and attack other people on this board or you will NOT be welcome to post here any longer.


You spend a lot of time telling people that you are not listening or ignoring them. If that is the case, why are you here? This is a place for discussion and debate and you obviously do not want to do this and when you do it is by attacking others.
 
Sorry Gary, but I have to lock this thread until it can be properly edited.

Thanks,

Robert
 
Re: Yeshua

ILoveGod said:
You Don't have to say all this Coz am not listning to it .



Rat do praise God but you just don't hear them coz ur not a RAT and you don't understand them .


---------------------------------------------

And your soFlamming... bcoz you didn't read about our God and what we say about him .

stop this Flamming... about the moon god or satan himself .


oh my 6 year old brother Flamming...


in the quran god says i created the heavens and the earth and the MOON and the stars but do not worship anything but me .

Flamming...

keep this Flamming...

I Got no problem on my side coz i am worshipping God who is on top of the skies in his thrown and he sees and knows everything and he created all the prophets and angels and everything else .

Flamming...

Flamming...

Can you at least try to behave... :evil:
Shalom ILoveGod
here is something for you read it very carefully and then reconsider your attitude towards Israel.
E-Mails from Arabs in Support of Israel
go to Arabs for Israel
A Malaysian for Israel

Posted June 12 2005

Dear Nonie,

I currently live in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. I have found your website and it has told me a lot of things about Israel and the Jewish people.
I have been questioning myself for a very long time about the Jews and the religion of the Jews. As a Muslim, I have been taught to hate the Jews since I was 7 years old. I don't take what I was taught seriously because I am not a racist or a bigoted person. As far as I am concerned, most Muslims are intolerant and bigoted. Sometimes, I ask myself how I found myself living in a Muslim country which teaches me to hate.
I have traveled to Germany to actually learn more about the Holocaust in World War Two. Some years ago, I took the opportunity to go there to learn about everything that happened to the Jews during the war. I visited one of the Nazi concentration camp in the eastern Germany, between Jena and Weimar. I cried and I was speechless for what happened to the Jews and the other victims of the Nazi regime. Since then, I have been always interested to learn more about the Holocaust and the Nazi regime.
As Malaysians, we never ever discussed the Holocaust in school, or the so-called "pro-Jewish" movies and articles which accurately detailed this horrific crime of history. Only recently has our government loosened the censorship on such materials a little bit so that we can now actually watch some of these "pro-Jewish" movies on local TV. I don't have to tell you how people react in the Muslim world since you have experienced it yourself first-hand.
I wish I could be in your position, because you finally migrated to the US and became free. Free to speak and free to be whatever you want to be. I have dreamed about leaving Malaysia for good and migrating to the USA. I have tried but still I have not made it yet. There is always a wall in front of me but I will never give up. Last time I tried to get a Tourist Visa to the USA, and it was denied several times. I was very disappointed. Living in the Muslim world is quite difficult because you feel that people are always watching you for anything that might be wrong or bad against Islam.
Malaysia does not recognisee Israel as a country, and my passport clearly states that I can't enter Israel. The only country I cant enter in this world. How funny is that? What about Malaysian Christians? How are they suppose to go and visit their Holy Land in Israel if the passport says 'do not enter Israel'?
Life is miserable and confused in the Muslim world. I don't understand
Why such radical Muslims want to kill each other and kill the infidels
and blame everything on the Jews. I always pray to Allah for peace of the world.
Nonie, you have my 100% support on this and I want to actually stand up and fight for human rights and the Jewish people.
Thank you for this wonderful website. MUSLIMS FOR JEWS!!
Shalom and love from me and my people and YESHUA the greatest Jew ever born
 
I LOVE Gandhi and what he stood for and how he did it....

He demonstrated Christ through his actions and to me that is a kind of FAITH albeit a possible ignorant one.........
 
Soma-Sight said:
I LOVE Gandhi and what he stood for and how he did it....

He demonstrated Christ through his actions and to me that is a kind of FAITH albeit a possible ignorant one.........

Nope, he representd a man doing good without Christ. That is not faith in Christ.

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
 
Nope, he representd a man doing good without Christ. That is not faith in Christ.

Really Berean?

Are you sure about that?

How do you reconcile THESE verses?

34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."



Gandhi spent the MAJORITY of his life helping the impoverished gain independance through Christ-like methods of non-violence and spiritual disciplines such as fasting and prayer for all men....


Just like Christ did.

Gandhi fulfills this parable by his actions and would be deemed Christ's own thorugh the Faith of his works.
 
Soma: Gandhi spent the MAJORITY of his life helping the impoverished gain independance through Christ-like methods of non-violence and spiritual disciplines such as fasting and prayer for all men....

Gary: And what about Gandhi's relationship with his family and his wife? Gandhi deprived his wife of normal relationships but instead slept with two young girls.... and claimed to not have relations with them. He neglected his sons who, because of that neglect, came to despise him.

IF Gandhi knew the Bible so well, why did he only consider the parts which served his purpose?

:-?
 
Gary: And what about Gandhi's relationship with his family and his wife? Gandhi deprived his wife of normal relationships but instead slept with two young girls.... and claimed to not have relations with them. He neglected his sons who, because of that neglect, came to despise him.

IF Gandhi knew the Bible so well, why did he only consider the parts which served his purpose?

I wonder what sources you got that from.......

So is David the antiChrist for his promiscuity?
 
David deeply repented his adultery and sin.

David confessed his sin with Bathsheba to the Lord; he asked God to cleanse him, to purify his heart and to restore the joy of salvation (Psalm 51:1-19).

On the other hand, how do you think Gandhi's wife felt about him sleeping with two young girls?

:crying:
 
David deeply repented his adultery and sin.

David confessed his sin with Bathsheba to the Lord; he asked God to cleanse him, to purify his heart and to restore the joy of salvation (Psalm 51:1-19).

On the other hand, how do you think Gandhi's wife felt about him sleeping with two young girls?

He did not have sex with them.

That is not adultery!

But after all, the God of YOUR Bible doesnt have a problem with rape and pillaging if it is for a good cause so why should we judge Gandhi for his good cause!

Please reconcile THESE verse Gary!

Numbers 31:7-18 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society



7 They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man. 8 Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Rebaâ€â€the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. 9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. 11 They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, 12 and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho. [a]

13 Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14 Moses was angry with the officers of the armyâ€â€the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundredsâ€â€who returned from the battle.

15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
 
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