Where's the sacrifice? (Question asked by another)

[Caroline H]

Sure it does, but not unless they accept it. His grace is sufficient for the whole world, but sadly many do not have faith.

Not so. It DOESN'T cover their sins. If it DID, . . . they wouldn't have to accept it. It would be automatic. If Christ died for ALL sins, past, present, and future, then the only thing that damns people is not making the right decision. And if that's a sin, . . . is that one covered? If it is, . . . then why are they damned?

The fact is, any "sacrifice" is powerless against the will of a finite, fallible human being.

You seem so bent on choosing your own way, no matter what answers you get to your questions. I think that you don't want to know the true answers. You're not looking for answers, your looking to try to undermine Scripture. I think I will give you what you want and leave you alone since I'm not willing to play along with your game.

 

[Orion]

So now we come to the "don't believe me, . . then I'm leaving" part of the debate. I figured it would happen soon enough. Funny that, when someone doesn't automatically agree with "an answer", they must NOT be looking for one. If that's the way you are, then please, leave and allow others to try to answer. Thanks.

TRUTH is, if sin keeps people from God, then not all sins were "paid for", and the "sacrifice" was limited by the whims of man. Not a lot of power to that "sacrifice", to rely on people to "have faith in a story told by men, and having no evidence at all, other than their words that it is true", before it even works.

 

[stovebolts]

So the sacrifice "in our place" was what?

Theologically, that's a loaded question ;)

It helps to look back to the Garden when man was in perfect union with both God and the rest of creation. Notice that both Adam and Eve used fig leaves to cover themselves when their 'eyes' were opened, but God provides animal skins.

Think about this for a moment. Adam named the animals which shows that Adam knew the proper use and place for each animal in relationship to himself and with God. According to God's word from a literal take, both Adam and Eve should have died but instead, an innocent animal died, taking the place of what Adam and Eve deserved and replacing the fig leaf which cover their physical shame.

In the Ancient Near East, animal sacrifice wasn't uncommon among the cults while some even took this ritual to the human realm where they would offer their children to the gods as to appease the gods from their wrath on mankind. However, the God of Abraham is different in that animals are sacrificed to atone for the sins of the people in conjunction with a contrite and repentant heart. Part of the ritual was to lay your hands on the animal being sacrifice and confess your sins, thus transfering your sins to the animal before cutting it's throat. I don't know if you've ever killed an animal or watched an innocent animal die, but it should conjure a sobering reality within you knowing that an innocent animal just lost it's life because of your sins.

Other animal sacrifices were for fellowship where the congregation actually would eat a meal together in celebration within the presence of God himself. These were known as the fellowship offerings.

Christ is a greek work that parallels the Jewish word Messiah which is to say the anointed on, which is to say that one has been prepared to do God's work. Jesus was anointed to take away the sins of the world for as scripture teaches, Lev 17:11... For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Grace and Peace.

 

[Heneni]

To be sure, the first instance of sacrifice is found in the book of genesis.

Where did cain and abel get the idea to bring sacrifices? And if god was not happy with the idea in some way, he never would have accepted the sacrifice of abel. Abel's sacrifice was different to cain's because he brought it out of faith, and that made it acceptable to god.

Jesus was like a lamb led to the slaughter, but jesus was also a ram that took the sins of the gentiles/regenerated jews into the wilderness. In the sense that jesus was a lamb led to the slaughter the jews are guilty for killing him, (the gentiles found no fault in him) but in the sense that he was the ram who carried our sins into the wilderness he was a substitute. He said, nobody takes his life, he lays it down (as a ram), but in the sense of being a lamb led to slaughter he was murdered by the jews. And so the blood of of the lamb is upon the hands of the jews. And for that reason god did not extend mercy to them because to those who show no mercy no mercy will be shown. And they were cut off from salvation.

What jesus did on the cross is so deep and multilayered it is hard to understand it all in one go.

 

[Orion]

Okay, Steve, . . . so then every sacrifice was symbolic, . . . even Jesus. As per my previous post, how is the "sacrifice" of Jesus meant to "take our place", since as many christians say, "it should have been ME on that cross".

Also, why have all the VERY strict and specific ritualistic practices during the OT, but then see Jesus as "the final sacrifice" when none of the strict and specific ritualistic practices were used on this "final sacrifice"? Why all the ritual when, in their future, Christ would just be beaten and killed with NO ritual?

 

[stovebolts]

Okay, Steve, . . . so then every sacrifice was symbolic, . . . even Jesus. As per my previous post, how is the "sacrifice" of Jesus meant to "take our place", since as many christians say, "it should have been ME on that cross".

Also, why have all the VERY strict and specific ritualistic practices during the OT, but then see Jesus as "the final sacrifice" when none of the strict and specific ritualistic practices were used on this "final sacrifice"? Why all the ritual when, in their future, Christ would just be beaten and killed with NO ritual?

Hey Orion,

Every sacrifice was both a physical (real) action and a symbolic action. This goes back to my earlier comment about watching an animal die. Add to that experience your own hands killing an innocent animal with the knowledge that your sins are being transfered to that animal which is why your killing that animal, and if your anything close to human you should realise it's not fair.

Lets look at a particular sin for instance. Lets say that you and I are talking smack about Johnny and we start to stretch the truth about johnny just a tad to make ourselves feel better about our own inadequacies. The next time we meet Johnny face to face, what is our natural reaction? Right, we avoid Johnny. Not because Johnny has done something particularly wrong to us, but that we've done something wrong to Johnny and when Johnny is in our presence, we're not comfortable.

Now then, isn't this what happened back in the garden with Adam and Eve? Didn't they do something that they shouldn't have done and as a result, they tried to hide from their creator and sustainer? For some of us, we view God as merciful and full of grace. But we also see God as a just God and thus, instead of Adam and Eve dying a physical death on the day they ate, the death they deserved is transfered to an animal and of course, this takes both a physical and symbolic tone.

For the Christians that say, "It should have been me on that cross", I would say that they have a good understanding where they have failed in this physical body. Nobody is perfect and we all screw up and do things we know we shouldn't have done, but we do them anyway. That's our nature, and it doesn't matter what religion you belong to to realise this basic human trait. But for those who understand the atonement that was provided through the death of Jesus on the cross which took the form of the alter outside the camp (seen in Lev 4:12), we can be thankful that we too one day are assured that once we die, that we, like Jesus will be resurrected from the dead.

As far as the ritual, when Moses was given the pattern of the tabernacle and all it's furnishings including the alter and holy of holies, it was to be a pattern of heavenly things that would lead up the realisation of the Messiah Jesus. What you speak of in regard to offerings were not to be wrote actions but rather, they were to reveal the salvation that would come through the messiah as symbolically expressed when the curtain to the holy of holies was torn. You see, without the blood from the sacrifice once a year, the priest could not enter where God was said to have dwelt between the cherubim on his mercy seat.

Ponder all this for a moment. Does that help?

 

[stovebolts]

To be sure, the first instance of sacrifice is found in the book of genesis.

Where did cain and abel get the idea to bring sacrifices? And if god was not happy with the idea in some way, he never would have accepted the sacrifice of abel. Abel's sacrifice was different to cain's because he brought it out of faith, and that made it acceptable to god.

Consider this. Genesis was recorded by Moses and sacrifices were already taken place. If we go back to the original hebrew, the word YHVH is used for Lord. However, scripture states Exodus 6:3 I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob as God Almighty, (El Shaddai) but by my name ‘the Lord’ (YHVH) I was not known to them.

Much of Genesis is recorded through Exodus eyes and thus, uses exodus language while others things were assumed, such as cain and able offering sacrifices since the Israelites as well as other pagan rituals included sacrifices. Thus, it wasn't as much about the sacrifice as what the sacrifice represented and was capable of achieving for the worshipper.

as a far away example, It would be like you and I talking about the model T. We both take for granted that it ran on gasoline, thus there is no need to mention the obvious.

 

[justvisiting]

You know Orion. God will judge every man and woman according to what they knew and what they did with what they knew. I don't think you even really want to know the truth of Christ. Your underline says "deconvert from traditional Christianity". There are all kinds of Christians that are happy with the way God has done things. The first thing you are doing is relegating the work of Christ ... to meaninglessness. Why don't you just forget about being religious at all. You're just spending your time fighting God anyway. He cares for all mankind... He will also judge all mankind. God is good. That is the final answer. You obviously, do not believe that yet.
I won't waste any more time on you. You need to decide for yourself, whether you really ever want to be a happy Christian believer. or a miserable doubter of all that is right and good with God.

 

[Heneni]

To be sure, the first instance of sacrifice is found in the book of genesis.

Where did cain and abel get the idea to bring sacrifices? And if god was not happy with the idea in some way, he never would have accepted the sacrifice of abel. Abel's sacrifice was different to cain's because he brought it out of faith, and that made it acceptable to god.

Consider this. Genesis was recorded by Moses and sacrifices were already taken place. If we go back to the original hebrew, the word YHVH is used for Lord. However, scripture states Exodus 6:3 I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob as God Almighty, (El Shaddai) but by my name ‘the Lord’ (YHVH) I was not known to them.

Much of Genesis is recorded through Exodus eyes and thus, uses exodus language while others things were assumed, such as cain and able offering sacrifices since the Israelites as well as other pagan rituals included sacrifices. Thus, it wasn't as much about the sacrifice as what the sacrifice represented and was capable of achieving for the worshipper.

as a far away example, It would be like you and I talking about the model T. We both take for granted that it ran on gasoline, thus there is no need to mention the obvious.

Are you saying that moses did not mean 'sacrifice' when he said abel made a sacrifice?

 

[Orion]

You know Orion. God will judge every man and woman according to what they knew and what they did with what they knew. I don't think you even really want to know the truth of Christ. Your underline says "deconvert from traditional Christianity". There are all kinds of Christians that are happy with the way God has done things. The first thing you are doing is relegating the work of Christ ... to meaninglessness. Why don't you just forget about being religious at all. You're just spending your time fighting God anyway. He cares for all mankind... He will also judge all mankind. God is good. That is the final answer. You obviously, do not believe that yet.
I won't waste any more time on you. You need to decide for yourself, whether you really ever want to be a happy Christian believer. or a miserable doubter of all that is right and good with God.

You are free to "no longer waste time" here, but YOUR "final answer" doesn't mean that the issue is resolved. As for "all that is right and good with God", . . I've seen plenty that neither seemed "right" nor "good", yet they are happily embraced by christianity.

 

[Orion]

Hey Orion,

Every sacrifice was both a physical (real) action and a symbolic action. This goes back to my earlier comment about watching an animal die. Add to that experience your own hands killing an innocent animal with the knowledge that your sins are being transfered to that animal which is why your killing that animal, and if your anything close to human you should realise it's not fair.

We have no way of knowing the mentality of people in those days and how they react to "an innocent animal being killed", though. I think that it is reading a bit much into their society to think that killing animals was looked upon as all that abhorant.

Lets look at a particular sin for instance. . . . .
....... where God was said to have dwelt between the cherubim on his mercy seat.

Ponder all this for a moment. Does that help?

Actually, all you said (between the . . . . . ) I am aware of. As for "it is our nature to sin", . . . God created us that way, after all. It was his design. Adam and Eve were created to fail from the beginning. TRUE perfection would not have allowed failure. So God would have had to set up a system to punish people for the nature that was created within them.

 

[justvisiting]

There is one final thing you should know. This is a Christian forum. As such it has rules. Spreading heresy and confusion is against those rules. If you want to practice white witchcraft or whatever you're into... go elsewhere. I have already notified the moderators about your posts.
Before you even signed up, there was a statement of faith, and rules to post by. I have no doubt you do not belong here.

 

[joechrist]

There is one final thing you should know. This is a Christian forum. As such it has rules. Spreading heresy and confusion is against those rules. If you want to practice white witchcraft or whatever you're into... go elsewhere. I have already notified the moderators about your posts.
Before you even signed up, there was a statement of faith, and rules to post by. I have no doubt you do not belong here.

Justvisiting: WWJD

 

[justvisiting]

If you are wondering what would Jesus Do? How about a scourge of cords? Maybe even Paul? Or Peter?
Acts 13:6  And when they had gone through the isle unto Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew, whose name was Barjesus:
7  Which was with the deputy of the country, Sergius Paulus, a prudent man; who called for Barnabas and Saul, and desired to hear the word of God.
8  But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith.9  Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him,
10  And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?
11  And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand.
That's what Paul would do
Acts 8:14  ¶Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15  Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16  (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17  Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
18  And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
19  Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
20  But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
21  Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.23  For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.
24  Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.
That's what Peter would do The Rules are clear!

 

[stovebolts]

To be sure, the first instance of sacrifice is found in the book of genesis.

Where did cain and abel get the idea to bring sacrifices? And if god was not happy with the idea in some way, he never would have accepted the sacrifice of abel. Abel's sacrifice was different to cain's because he brought it out of faith, and that made it acceptable to god.

Consider this. Genesis was recorded by Moses and sacrifices were already taken place. If we go back to the original hebrew, the word YHVH is used for Lord. However, scripture states Exodus 6:3 I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob as God Almighty, (El Shaddai) but by my name ‘the Lord’ (YHVH) I was not known to them.

Much of Genesis is recorded through Exodus eyes and thus, uses exodus language while others things were assumed, such as cain and able offering sacrifices since the Israelites as well as other pagan rituals included sacrifices. Thus, it wasn't as much about the sacrifice as what the sacrifice represented and was capable of achieving for the worshipper.

as a far away example, It would be like you and I talking about the model T. We both take for granted that it ran on gasoline, thus there is no need to mention the obvious.

Are you saying that moses did not mean 'sacrifice' when he said abel made a sacrifice?

Not at all my friend. You said, "Where did cain and abel get the idea to bring sacrifices?". and then you went on to make a valid point to which I agree.

I was simply adding to the dialog because in the past, I have seen people argue about where Cain and Able learned how to perform the sacrifice etc.... For example, one could effectively argue from the text in Gen 3 that they learned animal sacrifice by YHVH's example when YHVH cloths Adam and Eve with animal skin. However, we don't hear about grain offerings etc anywhere in or around the text until we read about Cains offering. My point was simply that much of Genesis was written through Exodus eyes where sacrifices and offerings were succinctly established.

 

[Orion]

There is one final thing you should know. This is a Christian forum. As such it has rules. Spreading heresy and confusion is against those rules. If you want to practice white witchcraft or whatever you're into... go elsewhere. I have already notified the moderators about your posts.
Before you even signed up, there was a statement of faith, and rules to post by. I have no doubt you do not belong here.

Wow! Dude, you think I practice "white witchcraft"? Hmmm. . . . maybe I should then. :eyebrow

In all seriousness, this IS an "apologetics" section as well. That means that my being here makes you sharpen your skills, if nothing else. :yes

 

[stovebolts]

Hey Orion,

Every sacrifice was both a physical (real) action and a symbolic action. This goes back to my earlier comment about watching an animal die. Add to that experience your own hands killing an innocent animal with the knowledge that your sins are being transfered to that animal which is why your killing that animal, and if your anything close to human you should realise it's not fair.

We have no way of knowing the mentality of people in those days and how they react to "an innocent animal being killed", though. I think that it is reading a bit much into their society to think that killing animals was looked upon as all that abhorant.

It's not so much the mentality, but more so the state of Israel when they came out of bondage and oppression. Do some study on Holocaust victims or even on the early slaves from the USA. An oppressed people loose a part of their humanity and I find no reason to believe that when Israel was in bondage for 400 years, they had lost a part of their humanity. The fact of the matter is this. If you can kill an animal with your own hands and don't feel something... you've lost a part of your humanity and God wants to reclaim that piece for you...

But you see, it wasn't all about killing an animal and then letting it go up in smoke. Most of the sacrifices were eaten within the community after the fat and other innards were offered to God. God was known to fellowship with them at table. It was a communal event as well.

Lets look at a particular sin for instance. . . . .
....... where God was said to have dwelt between the cherubim on his mercy seat.

Ponder all this for a moment. Does that help?

Actually, all you said (between the . . . . . ) I am aware of. As for "it is our nature to sin", . . . God created us that way, after all. It was his design. Adam and Eve were created to fail from the beginning. TRUE perfection would not have allowed failure. So God would have had to set up a system to punish people for the nature that was created within them.

I don't really look at it that way. I suppose some do, but I believe that God is a merciful, loving and just God and I think part of the lie that the serpent sold Eve on was that God wanted to rule over us and do so by oppressing us which is why they couldn't eat from the tree of knowledge. I think that when we believe that God designed us to punish and rule over us, all we've done is visualised God in our own pridefull, power hungry image...

Look at it this way. If you touch your finger on a hot coal, your going to get burnt and it's going to hurt. It's just the nature of something hot. Likewise, sin has a nature. When you lie or steal, bad things can happen like you can loose trust etc and when this occurs, relationships beging to crack and sometimes even shatter. Just like when you get burnt from something hot it leaves a scar, when we sin, it leaves a scar too. It's just the nature of how things are.

When God told Adam that if he ate of the tree of knowledge he would die, he was stating the nature of what would occur as a result of Adam's action. God did not tell Adam that he would punish Adam for eating the forbidden fruit, he simply told Adam what the result would be. He simply told Adam what the nature of sin would cause.

Where we do see God punishing people, is when humanity as a whole strays so far from God's ways, that justice needs to occur to put humanity back on track. As a whole, you could look at this as punishing people, but we could also look at this as discipline much in the same way you would discipline your child when you see him moving in a direction that will cause so much hurt and pain on other innocent children kinda like last week when my son was throwing sand at other kids in the sandbox. Hey, he was having a great time, but at the cost of others.. If you ask him, I punished him. If you ask me, I'm guiding him. It's all perspective.

 

[stovebolts]

There is one final thing you should know. This is a Christian forum. As such it has rules. Spreading heresy and confusion is against those rules. If you want to practice white witchcraft or whatever you're into... go elsewhere. I have already notified the moderators about your posts.
Before you even signed up, there was a statement of faith, and rules to post by. I have no doubt you do not belong here.

Wow! Dude, you think I practice "white witchcraft"? Hmmm. . . . maybe I should then. :eyebrow

In all seriousness, this IS an "apologetics" section as well. That means that my being here makes you sharpen your skills, if nothing else. :yes

I think that's about enough bantering from both of you. Please become familiar with our Tos.

Orion. If you have an issue with another member, please use PM's to resolve the issue.
justvisiting, No personal attacks. Keep to the topic, not personalities.

 

[Orion]

Before I continue, I would like to thank you for your kind nature in replying, StoveBolts. It is appreciated.

It's not so much the mentality, but more so the state of Israel when they came out of bondage and oppression. Do some study on Holocaust victims or even on the early slaves from the USA. An oppressed people loose a part of their humanity and I find no reason to believe that when Israel was in bondage for 400 years, they had lost a part of their humanity. The fact of the matter is this. If you can kill an animal with your own hands and don't feel something... you've lost a part of your humanity and God wants to reclaim that piece for you...

But you see, it wasn't all about killing an animal and then letting it go up in smoke. Most of the sacrifices were eaten within the community after the fat and other innards were offered to God. God was known to fellowship with them at table. It was a communal event as well.

Okay, here's the reason why I said what I did about their emotion response to killing an animal. I hope you will be able to see where I'm coming from here. Today, we can look upon such a thing AS a horrible thing, but I'm not really sure they did. These ARE the same people who very willing killed many people groups, women and children included with the men they were fighting, and sometimes their animals too. I just don't see them looking at the sacrificial animal with empathy.

However, I agree with you that the animals were eaten. I would get rid of the fat and innards, too!! Ick! :crazy

 

[Orion]

Before I continue, I would like to thank you for your kind nature in replying, StoveBolts. It is appreciated.

It's not so much the mentality, but more so the state of Israel when they came out of bondage and oppression. Do some study on Holocaust victims or even on the early slaves from the USA. An oppressed people loose a part of their humanity and I find no reason to believe that when Israel was in bondage for 400 years, they had lost a part of their humanity. The fact of the matter is this. If you can kill an animal with your own hands and don't feel something... you've lost a part of your humanity and God wants to reclaim that piece for you...

But you see, it wasn't all about killing an animal and then letting it go up in smoke. Most of the sacrifices were eaten within the community after the fat and other innards were offered to God. God was known to fellowship with them at table. It was a communal event as well.

Okay, here's the reason why I said what I did about their emotion response to killing an animal. I hope you will be able to see where I'm coming from here. Today, we can look upon such a thing AS a horrible thing, but I'm not really sure they did. These ARE the same people who very willing killed many people groups, women and children included with the men they were fighting, and sometimes their animals too. I just don't see them looking at the sacrificial animal with empathy.

However, I agree with you that the animals were eaten. I would get rid of the fat and innards, too!! Ick! :crazy