Which came FIRST ????

[Mysteryman]

To say which came first, is like asking if a chicken or an egg came first. But I do have a theory - LOL

I would say that the covenant with Adam came first, which set up the first dispensation period of time.

Love IN Christ - MM

Hi Mysteryman , maybe I read it wrong and BEFORE the foundation of the earth does not mean before .

What does foundation means, anyway ????

#1 , When did the " overthrow " of the world take place ?????

#2 , How far back can we go ????

#3 , Can we go back to Genesis 1:2 ????

#4 , Yes, I believe that we can !!!

#5, KATABOLE is used 11 times in the bible , and in 10 of the verses 2 different Prepostions are used with it that SETS forth the TIME element we are looking for !!

1) BEFORE the " overthrow " of the world IS the Greek preposition PRO , before , found in the following verses ; John 17:24 ; Eph 1:4 ; 1 Peter 1:20 .

2) FROM the " overthrow " of the world , IS the Greek preposition APO , from , used in the following verses ; Matt 13:35 ; 25:34 ; Luke 11:50 ; Heb 4:3 ; 9:26 ; Rev 13:8 ; 17:8 .

3) One key verse in the 7 verses under " from " gives us the proper TIME element of where " from " and " before " are to be figured .

4) This passage is Luke 11:50-51 , That the blood of all the prophets which was shed FROM ( APO ) the foundation of the world ETC .

5) But , there is a verse that goes back further than Gen 1:2 . This is in 2 Tim 1:9 " not according to our works but according to His own purpose and grace having been given us in Christ Jesus BEFORE ( PRO ) THE time RELATED to the AGES .

6) This verse goes back before Gen 1:1 , before the times related to the AGES . gENESIS 1:1 IS RELATED TO " TIME " and the " AGES " .

7) Eph 1:4 , God the Father chose the Body of Christ for Himself BEFORE the destructive overthrow of the earth .

8) 2 Tim 1:9 , shows that we can go back even further than the creation of the Original earth . In , other words , those who make up the Body of Christ can be called " PREHISTORIC " people because they were in the mind of God BEFORE the creation of history as we know it .

Hi dan

I am trying to see where it is you are coming from here.

As far as a covenant or a dispensation (administration) , the first recorded administration began with Adam in the garden. The first covenant also began with Adam in the garden.

As far as before goes, do you mean to say that God had a covenant before the time frame of God creating the heavens and the earth ? If so, where is this covenant ? or administration ?

Prior to God creating the heavens and the earth. God created angelic beings which we call angels. Are you asking of God had a covenant with these paticular angelic beings ?

A covenant is an agreement or a promise. So yes, God would have had an agreement or promise with the angelic beings prior to creating the heavens and the earth. And I think that we could even say that God had a covenant within himself. Hence that is why all things made and created by God came into existence. It was for his pleasure, but it was also a promise within himself that he himself could not deny.

And once God did create the heavens and the earth, he also made a covenant with the heavens and the earth. Once the earth became without form and void (lucifer who became the angel of darkness). God's covenant with the earth was already established. God wasn't going to just let the earth remain in a state of darkness with no life within it. That is when he re-established life here upon earth.

Yes, indeed, God knew all of us, and especially all those whom would be a part of the body of Christ, he knew from before the foundations of the earth. I believe that this covenant was established within the framework of God himself, based upon all his promises.

Love IN Christ - MM

 

[handy]

I do believe that this fits right in with the OP, because despite the fact that God entered into several covenants with man, there has always and only been one way of salvation. The idea of dispensations as a way of God interacting with men is not in the Bible. The word dispensation in the Bible speaks more of stewardship, not a way of God interacting with men. God's interaction with men is in the form of covenants.

So, as to which came first? To answer your question biblically, it would be first stewardship in the sense that Adam was placed as a steward to the earth that God created. Then came the covenant that Adam was not to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge.

But, as we see with Adam, through Abraham, including Moses, David, even John the Baptist, the Law or covenant never saved anyone, but rather was a means of spiritual death.

To your question "Tell me , about thses that were under the Law , King David , Moses , John the Baptist, were they saved ?????"

Absolutely YES! But not by keeping the covenant with God, for no man has ever kept a covenant with God. Abraham, Moses, King David et al, were all saved via the same way you and I are saved...by faith, which is not of ourselves but comes via God's grace.

Read Hebrews Chapter 11 to see how those of the Old Covenant were saved by faith.

A really key text that needs to be considered when thinking about whether or not God interacts with some men completely differently than others is Hebrews 11:39 - 12:2:

39And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

1Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

I highlighted "Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith" because it clearly shows that Old Covenant or New, Abraham or Paul, Jesus is the author of faith and it is by faith we, the saints of old, and all the saved in the Old Testament are saved. ONE GOSPEL, the gospel of faith in Christ.

Hebrews 11 also answers the obvious question of how Abraham, Moses and David could have faith in Christ when they lived ages before Christ came:

13All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own.

15And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.

Hi handy , you say that it came to Adam BUT Eph 1:4 , read " BEFORE " not " from " and that means fefore He made the earth , and that is before Adam .

Ephesians 1:4 isn't speaking of a covenant or a stewardship. It is speaking to God's eternal plan. God had His plans in place prior to our adoption.

I do not know whether or not God entered into any covenants with the angels or whether He appointed any stewardship on them prior to Genesis. However, any and all covenants and stewardship with mankind *began* with Adam, in the Garden.

*edited for clarity

 

[dan p]

I do believe that this fits right in with the OP, because despite the fact that God entered into several covenants with man, there has always and only been one way of salvation. The idea of dispensations as a way of God interacting with men is not in the Bible. The word dispensation in the Bible speaks more of stewardship, not a way of God interacting with men. God's interaction with men is in the form of covenants.

So, as to which came first? To answer your question biblically, it would be first stewardship in the sense that Adam was placed as a steward to the earth that God created. Then came the covenant that Adam was not to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge.

But, as we see with Adam, through Abraham, including Moses, David, even John the Baptist, the Law or covenant never saved anyone, but rather was a means of spiritual death.

To your question "Tell me , about thses that were under the Law , King David , Moses , John the Baptist, were they saved ?????"

Absolutely YES! But not by keeping the covenant with God, for no man has ever kept a covenant with God. Abraham, Moses, King David et al, were all saved via the same way you and I are saved...by faith, which is not of ourselves but comes via God's grace.

Read Hebrews Chapter 11 to see how those of the Old Covenant were saved by faith.

A really key text that needs to be considered when thinking about whether or not God interacts with some men completely differently than others is Hebrews 11:39 - 12:2:

39And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

1Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

I highlighted "Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith" because it clearly shows that Old Covenant or New, Abraham or Paul, Jesus is the author of faith and it is by faith we, the saints of old, and all the saved in the Old Testament are saved. ONE GOSPEL, the gospel of faith in Christ.

Hebrews 11 also answers the obvious question of how Abraham, Moses and David could have faith in Christ when they lived ages before Christ came:

13All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own.

15And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.

Hi handy , you say that it came to Adam BUT Eph 1:4 , read " BEFORE " not " from " and that means fefore He made the earth , and that is before Adam .

Ephesians 1:4 isn't speaking of a covenant or a stewardship. It is speaking to God's eternal plan. God had His plans in place prior to our adoption.

I do not know whether or not God entered into any covenants with the angels or whether He appointed any stewardship on them prior to Genesis. However, any and all covenants and stewardship with mankind *began* with Adam, in the Garden.

*edited for clarity

Hi handy and Mysteryman , A covenant is usally between to parties , or agreement , contract , arrangement , and are Conditional or Unconditional .

OIKONOMIA does not mean admistration !!!!

OIKOS means House and NOMOS means Law , and that means House Law , period !!!! so easy to find in Vine's .

Eph 1:4 and 2 Tim 1:9, is something that God did for Himself and we had NOTHING to do with it !!!

 

[handy]

dan, I believe we've covered this ground before. The word that is translated as "dispensation" in the New Testament means "administration". It truly does.

You said, "Hi handy , you say that it came to Adam BUT Eph 1:4 , read " BEFORE " not " from " and that means fefore He made the earth , and that is before Adam ."

Now you say, "Eph 1:4 and 2 Tim 1:9, is something that God did for Himself and we had NOTHING to do with it !!!"

Now I'm somewhat confused (again) as to what you are referring to when you are discussing "it".

Please clarify: What are you referring to as "it" in "Hi handy , you say that it came to Adam BUT Eph 1:4 , read " BEFORE..."

and what are you referring to as "it" in "is something that God did for Himself and we had NOTHING to do with it !"

 

[dan p]

dan, I believe we've covered this ground before. The word that is translated as "dispensation" in the New Testament means "administration". It truly does.

You said, "Hi handy , you say that it came to Adam BUT Eph 1:4 , read " BEFORE " not " from " and that means fefore He made the earth , and that is before Adam ."

Now you say, "Eph 1:4 and 2 Tim 1:9, is something that God did for Himself and we had NOTHING to do with it !!!"

Now I'm somewhat confused (again) as to what you are referring to when you are discussing "it".

Please clarify: What are you referring to as "it" in "Hi handy , you say that it came to Adam BUT Eph 1:4 , read " BEFORE..."

and what are you referring to as "it" in "is something that God did for Himself and we had NOTHING to do with it !"

Hi handy , " it " refers to God's CHOOSING , or what is called ELECTION .

I have shown that the Greek word OIKONOMIA means House Law , so , show the Greek where it means Administration , maybe I missed it ?????

Before you can administer something , what did Paul administer , the Dispensation of the Mystery ?????

Eph 3:1-10 !!!! Thats what !!!! And then YOU become a Steward of God , 1 Cor 4:1-2 '

 

[handy]

In what way does election equate with covenants or dispensations?

 

[Mysteryman]

Dispensation is a period of time - oikonomia

Now one has to understand its - usage

Ephesians 1:10 - "That in the dispensation of the fulness of times"

Administration is "ministry" (service) within a dispensation = ministry (service) during a certain period of time.

The two go hand in hand. Its like saying they work "together" with one another.

Love IN Christ - MM

 

[handy]

From Strong's

oikonomia feminine noun
1) the management of a household or of household affairs

a) specifically, the management, oversight, administration, of other's property

b) the office of a manager or overseer, stewardship

c) administration, dispensation
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lex ... 3623&t=KJV

From Vine's
&lt1,,3622,oikonomia>
primarily signifies "the management of a household or of household affairs" (oikos, "a house," nomos, "a law"); then the management or administration of the property of others, and so "a stewardship," Luke 16:2-4; elsewhere only in the Epistles of Paul, who applies it (a) to the responsibility entrusted to him of preaching the Gospel, 1 Cor. 9:17 (RV, "stewardship," AV, "dispensation"); (b) to the stewardship commited to him "to fulfill the Word of God," the fulfillment being the unfolding of the completion of the Divinely arranged and imparted cycle of truths which are consummated in the truth relating to the Church as the Body of Christ, Col. 1:25 (RV and AV, "dispensation"); so in Eph. 3:2, of the grace of God given him as a stewardship ("dispensation") in regard to the same "mystery;" (c) in Eph. 1:10; 3:9, it is used of the arrangement or administration by God, by which in "the fullness of the times" (or seasons) God will sum up all things in the heavens and on earth in Christ. In Eph. 3:9 some mss. have koinonia, "fellowship," for oikonomia, "dispensation." In 1 Tim. 1:4 oikonomia may mean either a stewardship in the sense of (a) above, or a "dispensation" in the sense of (c). The reading oikodomia, "edifying," in some mss., is not to be accepted. See STEWARDSHIP.

Note: A "dispensation" is not a period or epoch (a common, but erroneous, use of the word), but a mode of dealing, an arrangement, or administration of affairs. Cp. oikonomos, "a steward," and oikonomeo, "to be a steward."
http://www2.mf.no/bibelprog/vines.pl?word=dispensation

oikonomia does not mean "house law". That is the root of the word, but the word means the stewardship or management of a household or household affairs. Dispensation in the New Testament speaks to the stewardship or administration of the gospel to the world.

 

[dan p]

From Strong's

oikonomia feminine noun
1) the management of a household or of household affairs

a) specifically, the management, oversight, administration, of other's property

b) the office of a manager or overseer, stewardship

c) administration, dispensation
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lex ... 3623&t=KJV

[quote:3lz4wa2v]From Vine's
&lt1,,3622,oikonomia>
primarily signifies "the management of a household or of household affairs" (oikos, "a house," nomos, "a law"); then the management or administration of the property of others, and so "a stewardship," Luke 16:2-4; elsewhere only in the Epistles of Paul, who applies it (a) to the responsibility entrusted to him of preaching the Gospel, 1 Cor. 9:17 (RV, "stewardship," AV, "dispensation"); (b) to the stewardship commited to him "to fulfill the Word of God," the fulfillment being the unfolding of the completion of the Divinely arranged and imparted cycle of truths which are consummated in the truth relating to the Church as the Body of Christ, Col. 1:25 (RV and AV, "dispensation"); so in Eph. 3:2, of the grace of God given him as a stewardship ("dispensation") in regard to the same "mystery;" (c) in Eph. 1:10; 3:9, it is used of the arrangement or administration by God, by which in "the fullness of the times" (or seasons) God will sum up all things in the heavens and on earth in Christ. In Eph. 3:9 some mss. have koinonia, "fellowship," for oikonomia, "dispensation." In 1 Tim. 1:4 oikonomia may mean either a stewardship in the sense of (a) above, or a "dispensation" in the sense of (c). The reading oikodomia, "edifying," in some mss., is not to be accepted. See STEWARDSHIP.

Note: A "dispensation" is not a period or epoch (a common, but erroneous, use of the word), but a mode of dealing, an arrangement, or administration of affairs. Cp. oikonomos, "a steward," and oikonomeo, "to be a steward."
http://www2.mf.no/bibelprog/vines.pl?word=dispensation

oikonomia does not mean "house law". That is the root of the word, but the word means the stewardship or management of a household or household affairs. Dispensation in the New Testament speaks to the stewardship or administration of the gospel to the world.[/quote:3lz4wa2v]

Hi handy , and like you have said , we will just have to disagree . Anyone can look in Vine's for the word HOUSE and the Greek word is OIKOS , PAGE 236 , and when looking up Law the Greek word is NOMOS , AND ALL WILL SEE IT ON PAGE 313 IN Vine's , so this is my last word on this subject to you .

So it means House Law , period .

 

[handy]

I quoted Vine's right up there, right above your post.

Do you not read my posts?

Vine's says, right there, that definition of oikonomia "primarily signifies "the management of a household or of household affairs" (oikos, "a house," nomos, "a law"); then the management or administration of the property of others, and so "a stewardship,"

There is a difference between the root of a word and it's usage. But, you don't really care, so...

 

[Mysteryman]

I quoted Vine's right up there, right above your post.

Do you not read my posts?

Vine's says, right there, that definition of oikonomia "primarily signifies "the management of a household or of household affairs" (oikos, "a house," nomos, "a law"); then the management or administration of the property of others, and so "a stewardship,"

There is a difference between the root of a word and it's usage. But, you don't really care, so...

You are correct handy

Maybe an example is in order here

Dispensation deals with a period of time
Administraion deals with ministering within that period of time

Think of Dispensation as a "dispenser" which means to "give out" - Like a bottle of lotion with a pump on it.

Administration should be thought of as one who "administers" something. Like a nurse giving you a flu shot.

We now are in the "Dispensation" of "grace" = time period of God's grace = saved by grace

We now have men of God who "administer" the Word of God, which means they "give" it to you because they are "miniters" of the Word of God unto the church.

These two examples are the "usages" of these two words.

Love IN Christ - MM

 

[dan p]

I quoted Vine's right up there, right above your post.

Do you not read my posts?

Vine's says, right there, that definition of oikonomia "primarily signifies "the management of a household or of household affairs" (oikos, "a house," nomos, "a law"); then the management or administration of the property of others, and so "a stewardship,"

There is a difference between the root of a word and it's usage. But, you don't really care, so...

You are correct handy

Maybe an example is in order here

Dispensation deals with a period of time
Administraion deals with ministering within that period of time

Think of Dispensation as a "dispenser" which means to "give out" - Like a bottle of lotion with a pump on it.

Administration should be thought of as one who "administers" something. Like a nurse giving you a flu shot.

We now are in the "Dispensation" of "grace" = time period of God's grace = saved by grace

We now have men of God who "administer" the Word of God, which means they "give" it to you because they are "miniters" of the Word of God unto the church.

These two examples are the "usages" of these two words.

Hi Mysteryman , I will right again , that OIKONOMIA means House Law , and does not mean mangement or steward or dispenser , until you have the right message to give out , then the other words can apply , like Mysteryman has presented . Using any other words to describe House Rule is meaningless .

So , what are the House Rules ??????

Love IN Christ - MM