Bible Study Which Law is that Paul?

[sehad]

Georges, just wondering where your "infatuation" with the law, for lack of a better word comes from. I'm kinda misunderstanding why we don't follow them now. The Torah was given to the Jews, but during Jesus' teachings he implies that if we follow the 10 commandments and be saved we shall live in Heaven. So I will ask you questions:

1. Can you, as a gentile or jew, enter into Heaven without following Torah?

2. If the Jews did not accept Jesus as their messiah, why are they not sacrificing and doing all of the other things that Torah teaches?

3. Paul seems to contradict the circumcision rule of Torah in his writings to the church, why?

 

[Georges]

Georges, just wondering where your "infatuation" with the law, for lack of a better word comes from.

A better word would be "realization" . I've come to realize that the Paul of the letters teaches differently than the Apostles in Jerusalem....the difference the Paul of the letters appears to teach Torah abstainence, the Apostles of Jerusalem are Torah observent Christians (actually Nazarene Jews).

I'm kinda misunderstanding why we don't follow them now.

Ah....The big question......

The Torah was given to the Jews, but during Jesus' teachings he implies that if we follow the 10 commandments and be saved we shall live in Heaven.

Technically speaking....Just as at the Pentecost after the resurrection, the HS descended upon the Apostles allowing them to speak the gospel in different languages, the same thing happened at the very 1st Pentecost at Mt. Siani (Exe 19). According to Rabbinic Tradition, the Thunderings at Sinai was God giving the Torah in the 70 known languages at the time....so technically, the Gentiles received the Torah at the same time...The Israelites were the only ones to accept it.

So I will ask you questions:

1. Can you, as a gentile or jew, enter into Heaven without following Torah?

Not what it is designed for. With all due respect, numerous times I've stated that God alone saves...the Torah is not designed to get you into heaven (unless you can follow it perfectly), it is designed to guide you to living righteously.....I don't know how to state it any easier than that. What saves a person (ie Abraham) is faith in God, who he is and what he is, also a person is forgiven by his repentence and obedience, not by sacrifice.

2. If the Jews did not accept Jesus as their messiah, why are they not sacrificing and doing all of the other things that Torah teaches?

Some Jews did (estimates are 1 out of every 5) accepted Jesus as the Messiah. A righteous Jew will do all of the things that Torah teaches to the best of his abliltiy....Sehad...with the giving of the Torah, sacrifices can only be "legallly" done in a Tabernacle of Temple (as the rules dictate in the Torah). No Temple, no sacrifices....having said that, it is clear that at least 2 more Temples will be built in Jerusalem...The First is the Temple that the False Messiah will desecrate. He will make the Jews quit sacrificing. The second Temple will be built by Messiah, and he as the "Prince" in Eze 40-46, will sacrifice....so......sacrifices will happen again.


3. Paul seems to contradict the circumcision rule of Torah in his writings to the church, why?

Ah....another million dollar question.....gotta ask why? Is his teachings really divinely inspired if they go against God's own commandment...a commandment that he (God) or Jesus himself never retracted.....that is why I question Paul.

 

[John the Baptist]

Ah....another million dollar question.....gotta ask why? Is his teachings really divinely inspired if they go against God's own commandment...a commandment that he (God) or Jesus himself never retracted.....that is why I question Paul.

_________________
George

*******
FORUM:
Nothing personal, but this 'post' sounds exactly like the Isaiah 14:12-14 message of I,I,I,I,...... 'I' question Paul! :o + Matthew 4:4, and Acts 9:15-16 huh? And surely he had heard this 'same message' before!! :wink: But, who does this 'post' work for is the question???

 

[sehad]

A better word would be "realization" . I've come to realize that the Paul of the letters teaches differently than the Apostles in Jerusalem....the difference the Paul of the letters appears to teach Torah abstainence, the Apostles of Jerusalem are Torah observent Christians (actually Nazarene Jews).

To my knowledge and readings, Peter never mentioned the Torah when asked what we must do to be saved(Acts 2:38). Maybe some other place in the bible Peter mentioned them? Do you know of any?



Technically speaking....Just as at the Pentecost after the resurrection, the HS descended upon the Apostles allowing them to speak the gospel in different languages, the same thing happened at the very 1st Pentecost at Mt. Siani (Exe 19). According to Rabbinic Tradition, the Thunderings at Sinai was God giving the Torah in the 70 known languages at the time....so technically, the Gentiles received the Torah at the same time...The Israelites were the only ones to accept it.

The Isrealites are the only ones that it was given to. If you will read, everywhere that the Isrealites went they were commanded to drive out any foreigners and several times there were commanded to kill them all and to keep nothing that belonged to them.

1. Can you, as a gentile or jew, enter into Heaven without following Torah?

Not what it is designed for. With all due respect, numerous times I've stated that God alone saves...the Torah is not designed to get you into heaven (unless you can follow it perfectly), it is designed to guide you to living righteously.....I don't know how to state it any easier than that. What saves a person (ie Abraham) is faith in God, who he is and what he is, also a person is forgiven by his repentence and obedience, not by sacrifice.

I do not see where you get this conclusion. What about before Jesus came and died on the cross? The only "repentence" that a person had was when he sacrificed that his sins were rolled ahead for a year. There were not erased. I can't remember off hand if this was due to sacrafice that the were rolled ahead or the scape goat that was released into the wilderness. So if the Torah cannot save you, then what did back then?

2. If the Jews did not accept Jesus as their messiah, why are they not sacrificing and doing all of the other things that Torah teaches?

Some Jews did (estimates are 1 out of every 5) accepted Jesus as the Messiah. A righteous Jew will do all of the things that Torah teaches to the best of his abliltiy....Sehad...with the giving of the Torah, sacrifices can only be "legallly" done in a Tabernacle of Temple (as the rules dictate in the Torah). No Temple, no sacrifices....having said that, it is clear that at least 2 more Temples will be built in Jerusalem...The First is the Temple that the False Messiah will desecrate. He will make the Jews quit sacrificing. The second Temple will be built by Messiah, and he as the "Prince" in Eze 40-46, will sacrifice....so......sacrifices will happen again.


Agreed that sacrificing will happen again, but why not NOW why not for the last 2000 years. Because the only thing that saved them durning the OT was following the Torah. So why aren't they following it now? Most of the sacrificing done was a sin offering, so what do they do for repentence?

3. Paul seems to contradict the circumcision rule of Torah in his writings to the church, why?

Ah....another million dollar question.....gotta ask why? Is his teachings really divinely inspired if they go against God's own commandment...a commandment that he (God) or Jesus himself never retracted.....that is why I question Paul.


I'm sure you've went over this before, but what exactly does Paul say that contradicts GOD's law? I'm new to the forum so I'm not sure where you stand on this issue. And I've still yet to figure out where you stand on should we be following Torah? If it is only a guide to be righteous, don't the 10 commandments pretty much have that covered? Do YOU practice Torah?

 

[John the Baptist]

And a certain poster loves John, and will not correspond with him. (and I am in agreement! :wink
So this Bible verse or two below is about the post material only, not the poster of the post?? (kind of confusing, huh?)

2 Peter 3:15-16 finds Peter telling of the wisdom of Paul, and how.. ''in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, [as they do also other scripture], unto their own destruction." Amen

Yet, some we see, just junk Paul it appears, they know better than what Paul's 'inspiration' says, huh?

---John

 

[Georges]

A better word would be "realization" . I've come to realize that the Paul of the letters teaches differently than the Apostles in Jerusalem....the difference the Paul of the letters appears to teach Torah abstainence, the Apostles of Jerusalem are Torah observent Christians (actually Nazarene Jews).

To my knowledge and readings, Peter never mentioned the Torah when asked what we must do to be saved(Acts 2:38). Maybe some other place in the bible Peter mentioned them? Do you know of any?

Somethings are taken for granted...Peter by his action is a Law abiding Jew....In Acts 2, he is speaking to Jews.....he doesn't say "stop practicing the law".....after all he didn't....stop observing Torah....

Technically speaking....Just as at the Pentecost after the resurrection, the HS descended upon the Apostles allowing them to speak the gospel in different languages, the same thing happened at the very 1st Pentecost at Mt. Siani (Exe 19). According to Rabbinic Tradition, the Thunderings at Sinai was God giving the Torah in the 70 known languages at the time....so technically, the Gentiles received the Torah at the same time...The Israelites were the only ones to accept it.

The Isrealites are the only ones that it was given to. If you will read, everywhere that the Isrealites went they were commanded to drive out any foreigners and several times there were commanded to kill them all and to keep nothing that belonged to them.

As I had said, if you do the "extra biblical" research had enough, you will find that the Torah was given to all men at Sinai.....the Pentecost at Sinai was repeated in the Pentecost at Jerusalem...both times the gospel was given to all men....at Sinai, in the 70 known languages of the time, at Jerusalem the 120 known languages....at Sinai, only the Israelites accepted.

1. Can you, as a gentile or jew, enter into Heaven without following Torah?

Not what it is designed for. With all due respect, numerous times I've stated that God alone saves...the Torah is not designed to get you into heaven (unless you can follow it perfectly), it is designed to guide you to living righteously.....I don't know how to state it any easier than that. What saves a person (ie Abraham) is faith in God, who he is and what he is, also a person is forgiven by his repentence and obedience, not by sacrifice.

I do not see where you get this conclusion. What about before Jesus came and died on the cross? The only "repentence" that a person had was when he sacrificed that his sins were rolled ahead for a year. There were not erased.

Where did you learn that from?.....That is completely false...here is the Jewish explanation of Atonement....including sacrifice.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. ... 0atonement

I can't remember off hand if this was due to sacrafice that the were rolled ahead or the scape goat that was released into the wilderness. So if the Torah cannot save you, then what did back then?

God's mercy.......Sehad would you be interested in a work I am critiquing for a colleage of mine? He has several Chapters with references dealing with this very subject? He proves very easily (Biblically) that blood sacrifice isn't needed for atonement (although it is in certain situations). If so pm me. Also, he would definetly be interested in anyone's criticism of his work. It is very interesting.

2. If the Jews did not accept Jesus as their messiah, why are they not sacrificing and doing all of the other things that Torah teaches?

Some Jews did (estimates are 1 out of every 5) accepted Jesus as the Messiah. A righteous Jew will do all of the things that Torah teaches to the best of his abliltiy....Sehad...with the giving of the Torah, sacrifices can only be "legallly" done in a Tabernacle of Temple (as the rules dictate in the Torah). No Temple, no sacrifices....having said that, it is clear that at least 2 more Temples will be built in Jerusalem...The First is the Temple that the False Messiah will desecrate. He will make the Jews quit sacrificing. The second Temple will be built by Messiah, and he as the "Prince" in Eze 40-46, will sacrifice....so......sacrifices will happen again.


Agreed that sacrificing will happen again, but why not NOW why not for the last 2000 years.

God's timetable, not mans.....

Because the only thing that saved them durning the OT was following the Torah.

Again....not so....what saved them was thier faith in God....

So why aren't they following it now? Most of the sacrificing done was a sin offering, so what do they do for repentence?

Do some research on Rosh Hashanah, the Days of Awe, and Yom Kippur and what the Jews do during that periond....you will find they are still practicing the same atoning proceedures since Moses...as much as possible anyway.


3. Paul seems to contradict the circumcision rule of Torah in his writings to the church, why?

Ah....another million dollar question.....gotta ask why? Is his teachings really divinely inspired if they go against God's own commandment...a commandment that he (God) or Jesus himself never retracted.....that is why I question Paul.


I'm sure you've went over this before, but what exactly does Paul say that contradicts GOD's law?

If Paul says not to circumcise, that is against God's commandment of circumcision.

I'm new to the forum so I'm not sure where you stand on this issue. And I've still yet to figure out where you stand on should we be following Torah?

I think it is a great set of rules to live by....can they be kept completely all of the time? no.....but should that keep people from trying to?....no


If it is only a guide to be righteous, don't the 10 commandments pretty much have that covered? Do YOU practice Torah?

As well as I can....those Laws that apply to me as a Gentile Godfeared...However, much to my family's dismay, I am seriously considering converting to Judaism....recognizing Jesus as the Son of God, of course...

 

[sehad]

Georges, sorry it's been a while since I've posted back. I've been looking into some of this. I still have a few problems with your outlook.

1. It's not scriptural that the Torah was given to the gentiles.

2. You will not give me a direct answer as to if we SHOULD or SHOULD NOT be following it today.

3. Jesus said if you break ONE law you are guilty of all. Meaning that if I do not sacrifice for my sins that I might as well murder someone. They will both end in the same punishment if and when GOD returns.

4. The Torah definitely WAS to get them into Heaven. If they did not follow the Torah then they were cut off from their poeple. Until Jesus was born, the only people that were "saved" were the Isrealites. I realize that it was GOD's grace and mercy that saved them but by not following Torah they were cut off from that mercy and grace. Hence, NO TORAH = NO HEAVEN.

5. What I meant by why aren't they doing sacrifices now is that the vast majority of the Jews did not accept Jesus as messiah BUT somewhere along the line they stopped sacrificing, which to them would be unbiblical. They do not believe that Jesus dieing on the cross saved them, therefore they should be bound to the Torah by their thinking, why did they stop?

 

[Georges]

Georges, sorry it's been a while since I've posted back. I've been looking into some of this. I still have a few problems with your outlook.

1. It's not scriptural that the Torah was given to the gentiles.

It's not written in black and white...as you say. Good thing we have other resources....

Form http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com article on the Seventy Nations....

The word of God was pronounced on Mount Sinai in seventy languages (Shab. 88a; Ex. R. v.; comp. Acts ii. 5). The Torah was written in seventy languages in order that the nations should not be able to plead ignorance as their excuse for rejecting it (Tosef., Soṭah, viii.). Among the seventy languages the most noble is Hebrew, for in it was pronounced the creative word of God (Gen. R. xviii., xxxi.; Yalḳ., Gen. 52). The Jewish law required that every member of the Sanhedrin should have sufficient knowledge of the seventy languages to be able to do without an interpreter (Sanh. 17a; comp. Meg. 73b; Men. 65a).

Both the First Pentecost at Sinai and the First Pentecost after the resurrection have 2 things in common....1. The First Pentecost was given to the Nations (according to rabbinic tradition, in the thunders heard at Sinai). and 2. The First Pentecost after the resurrection where the Gospel was preached in the 120 known languages of the world at that time. This was also accomplished with the sound of a mighty rushing wind.

2. You will not give me a direct answer as to if we SHOULD or SHOULD NOT be following it today.

Do I have to write it in a large font size, or bold letters? You seem to have missed it every time I've answered. Yes...we should be following it as it applies to us today....Most parts of the Law have nothing to do with the average person....and as a Christian, most of the Law is already being observed naturally.

Now.....do I need to repeat that....I can't make it any clearer....

3. Jesus said if you break ONE law you are guilty of all. Meaning that if I do not sacrifice for my sins that I might as well murder someone. They will both end in the same punishment if and when GOD returns.

Jesus is reflecting the sentiments of Judasim at the time....he isn't telling them anything they didn't already know. You are not getting the concept of atonement by repentence....God said he didn't need sacrifice...and judgment is only administered to the unrepentent....urgh....

4. The Torah definitely WAS to get them into Heaven.

Only because it taught them how they should live...righteously.
If they did not follow the Torah then they were cut off from their poeple.

Does not a doctor cut a cancer out to cure the flesh? Are those who repent not readmitted....?

Until Jesus was born, the only people that were "saved" were the Isrealites.

No man knows that...I'm pretty sure that God judges the heart of those who haven't heard his word....

I realize that it was GOD's grace and mercy that saved them but by not following Torah they were cut off from that mercy and grace. Hence, NO TORAH = NO HEAVEN.

No attempt to obey Torah = Disrespect of God = no part in the coming kingdom.


5. What I meant by why aren't they doing sacrifices now is that the vast majority of the Jews did not accept Jesus as messiah BUT somewhere along the line they stopped sacrificing, which to them would be unbiblical.

The Jews were kicked out of Isreal and the temple destroyed....of course sacrifice stopped....However, in Judaism, there is provision that substitues for sacrifices......go to http://www.jewishencyclpedia.com and type in Sacrifice in the search box.....I believe in Judaism at this time study of Torah and good works make up for the scrifices they are unable to do at this time. Having said that, there are plans in the ready for the rebuilding of another Temple in Jerusalem....then they will return to sacrificing.

They do not believe that Jesus dieing on the cross saved them, therefore they should be bound to the Torah by their thinking, why did they stop?

They still obey Torah as it applies to them....parts don't because the criteria of the Law can't be met....ie. since there is no Temple they do not sacrifice....however, when the Temple is rebuilt, then they will sacrifice.

 

[sehad]

Hebrews 9:22

And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Either Christ was the blood shed or we should be sacrificing. Meaning that the only way you are forgiven of sins and such is by the shedding of blood. Christ became our ultimate sacrifice hence no more sacrificing, but if he did not, just because there is no place to sacrifice does not negate the fact that there must be blood shed for remission. Abraham sacrificed in the wilderness didn't he? Noah sacrificed after coming off of the arc, there was no temple there. Elijah sacrificed on top of a mountain when proving to the false prohets that GOD was GOD. Balaam sacrificed on the top of 3 different mountains. David sacrificed while bringing the arc of the covenant back to Jerusalem.

Jesus said himself that he did not come for the Gentiles and pretty much called the Gentile woman a dog. I don't ever remember reading of any Gentiles that were saved until after Christ came. I don't remember any Gentiles being mentioned in a good light until Christ came. In fact, most of the Gentiles were killed if they were inhabiting the land that was promised to Isreal. What of this?

 

[R7-12]

Hello sehad

You wrote,

I don't ever remember reading of any Gentiles that were saved until after Christ came.

What about Abraham?

There are many examples of Gentile believers in the OT.

R7-12

 

[John the Baptist]

Hello sehad

You wrote,

I don't ever remember reading of any Gentiles that were saved until after Christ came.

What about Abraham?

There are many examples of Gentile believers in the OT.

R7-12

John here:
Very true, but will this make any difference though, to this 'message' poster?

[Quote:] "Jesus said himself that he did not come for the Gentiles and pretty much called the Gentile woman a dog. I don't ever remember reading of any Gentiles that were saved until after Christ came. I don't remember any Gentiles being mentioned in a good light until Christ came. In fact, most of the Gentiles were killed if they were inhabiting the land that was promised to Israel. What of this?"

Lev. 17 tells of Gentiles there on the day of Atonement. And before the flood ones were lost, the Gentils were preached to for 120 years with the Holy Spirit 'striving' with them. Not to mention Cain the first apostate who had been saved & still could have been if only he had 'obeyed' as he had done up until this fatal mature decision.

Even Abram before he became Abraham in Genesis 12 (I think?) was a Gentile soul winner. These were from Haran, yes, see Genesis 12:5 in the K.J..

The reason Christ stated as He did above to the woman? Her answer to him sheds the light!
But, it was this seven times of 27-34 AD that closed Israel's probation as a called of God nation to take the [Everlasting Gospel] to the world. They had made shipwreck as seen in Matthew 23:15. They had done evangelistic work, but the wrong kind, huh! : Yet, Christ even made provision for these ones that were brought in in/mature! He told of the 70AD slaughter & gave them instructions of future flight, if they would?

Take note that these fleeing ones were to still be keeping the weekly 7th Day Required Sabbath! Matthew 24:20-21 (compare Ezekiel 9:4-6)

But don't confuse this with the Matthew 25 'Midnight Cry'!

--John
_________________

 

[sehad]

Hello sehad

You wrote,

I don't ever remember reading of any Gentiles that were saved until after Christ came.

What about Abraham?

There are many examples of Gentile believers in the OT.

R7-12

Can you name one after the nation of Isreal was established? The meaning of Gentile is "non-Isrealite", therefore Gentiles did not exist until the establishment of the Isrealite nation. Abraham was called out by GOD to be the beginning of the nation of Isreal. Now why did GOD wait 2 generations after Abraham before starting this with Jacob(Isreal)? I don't know.

Georges, I never got a reply back to my post from earlier. I don't know if you didn't read it or if you just haven't been on here in a while. I'm copying it below again.

Hebrews 9:22

And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Either Christ was the blood shed or we should be sacrificing. Meaning that the only way you are forgiven of sins and such is by the shedding of blood. Christ became our ultimate sacrifice hence no more sacrificing, but if he did not, just because there is no place to sacrifice does not negate the fact that there must be blood shed for remission. Abraham sacrificed in the wilderness didn't he? Noah sacrificed after coming off of the arc, there was no temple there. Elijah sacrificed on top of a mountain when proving to the false prohets that GOD was GOD. Balaam sacrificed on the top of 3 different mountains. David sacrificed while bringing the arc of the covenant back to Jerusalem.

Jesus said himself that he did not come for the Gentiles and pretty much called the Gentile woman a dog. I don't ever remember reading of any Gentiles that were saved until after Christ came. I don't remember any Gentiles being mentioned in a good light until Christ came. In fact, most of the Gentiles were killed if they were inhabiting the land that was promised to Isreal. What of this?

 

[John the Baptist]

Heb. 11 tell's of the Jerico gal who was saved. Was she a Israelite! :wink:

Seriously, Was Adam or all the pre/flood ones Jews! See Genesis 6:3 for the Holy Spirit striving with them! Striving with them to do what? Accept the [Everlasting Gospel] of Revelation 14:6. Check out Leviticus 17:7-8's day of Atonement for others that were saved by faith.

--John

 

[sehad]

Heb. 11 tell's of the Jerico gal who was saved. Was she a Israelite! :wink:

Seriously, Was Adam or all the pre/flood ones Jews! See Genesis 6:3 for the Holy Spirit striving with them! Striving with them to do what? Accept the [Everlasting Gospel] of Revelation 14:6. Check out Leviticus 17:7-8's day of Atonement for others that were saved by faith.

--John

Nice John, I had indeed forgot about Rahab. She was saved for helping the Isrealites out and GOD honored that, they did not go looking for her, she just happened to be there to help them. Did you ever think that Rahab was actually a traitor to her people? Doesn't really matter here, but still strange. Another thought shown below.

Hebrews 11:31
By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

James 2:25
Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

Hebrews says saved by faith and James says saved by works. Strange huh? The point I'm making is that TORAH was not given to the Gentiles. Gentile is a term used to describe all of those that are not Isrealites, before Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Ever noticed that GOD was always refered to as the GOD of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? Not saying that a Gentile could not be saved, in fact Rahab is in the direct lineage of Jesus Christ, but the TORAH was given to Isreal, not the Gentiles.

 

[Georges]

Hello sehad

You wrote,

I don't ever remember reading of any Gentiles that were saved until after Christ came.

What about Abraham?

There are many examples of Gentile believers in the OT.

R7-12

Can you name one after the nation of Isreal was established? The meaning of Gentile is "non-Isrealite", therefore Gentiles did not exist until the establishment of the Isrealite nation. Abraham was called out by GOD to be the beginning of the nation of Isreal. Now why did GOD wait 2 generations after Abraham before starting this with Jacob(Isreal)? I don't know.

Georges, I never got a reply back to my post from earlier. I don't know if you didn't read it or if you just haven't been on here in a while. I'm copying it below again.

Sorry...I overlooked it...and yes, I've been off awhile. I've been getting a little bored with the topics lately and the rehashing of them.

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Yes, Paul (?) picks a verse (Lev 17:11) a verse prohibiting the eathing of blood and skews it to mean something completely else.

Really?

Leviticus 5:11 But if he is not able to bring two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, then he who sinned shall bring for his offering the tenth part of an ephah of fine flour for a sin offering; he shall put no oil upon it, nor shall he put any frankincense on it; for it is a sin offering. [12] Then shall he bring it to the priest, and the priest shall take his handful of it, a memorial part of it, and burn it on the altar, according to the offerings made by fire to the Lord; it is a sin offering.

1 Samuel 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD [as great] delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey [is] better than sacrifice, [and] to hearken than the fat of rams.

Psalms 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give [it]: thou delightest not in burnt offering. [17] The sacrifices of G-d [are] a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O G-d, thou wilt not despise. (KJV)

Psalms 69:30 I will praise the name of G-d with a song, and will magnify him with thanksgiving. [31] [This] also shall please the LORD better than an ox [or] bullock that hath horns and hoofs. (KJV)

Proverbs 15:8 The sacrifice of the wicked [is] an abomination to the LORD: but the prayer of the upright [is] His delight.

2 Chronicles 7:13 If I shut up heaven that there be no rain, or if I command the locusts to devour the land, or if I send pestilence among my people; [14] If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. (KJV)



Either Christ was the blood shed or we should be sacrificing.

Wasn't necessary as the above verses (and there are more) prove.

Meaning that the only way you are forgiven of sins and such is by the shedding of blood.

According to Paul it may be.....but, according to God "A repentent and contreit heart is the only thing required.

Christ became our ultimate sacrifice hence no more sacrificing, but if he did not, just because there is no place to sacrifice does not negate the fact that there must be blood shed for remission.

Again, according to Paul.....

Abraham sacrificed in the wilderness didn't he?

Yep...before "God" gave the rules to Moses...Abe did sacrifice in the wilderness as did the other Patriarchs.

Noah sacrificed after coming off of the arc, there was no temple there.

Again, the Rules weren't set.

Elijah sacrificed on top of a mountain when proving to the false prohets that GOD was GOD.

Good point....but....not a sin sacrifice.

Balaam sacrificed on the top of 3 different mountains.

Good point....but....not a sin offering....

David sacrificed while bringing the arc of the covenant back to Jerusalem.

Good point....but no sin offering...

Jesus said himself that he did not come for the Gentiles and pretty much called the Gentile woman a dog. I don't ever remember reading of any Gentiles that were saved until after Christ came.

There are some....Rahab, Ruth, and others with some digging.

I don't remember any Gentiles being mentioned in a good light until Christ came.

They generally weren't, unless they were interested in proselyting...some of the most famous rabbis were gentile proselytes.

In fact, most of the Gentiles were killed if they were inhabiting the land that was promised to Isreal. What of this?

laughable...you have your facts wrong....the only ones killed were heathens (those who were not interested in God). The disease had to be removed before the people entered the promised land....

Know what? This will happen again when Messiah leads the people into the future Messianic Kingdom....and guess what else? The Messianic Kingdom will include sacrifices....please do not respond to this untill you've read (reread) Eze 40-46. Jesus is Messiah the Prince.

Sehad....you are a trickster.....

 

[John the Baptist]

Heb. 11 tell's of the Jerico gal who was saved. Was she a Israelite! :wink:

Seriously, Was Adam or all the pre/flood ones Jews! See Genesis 6:3 for the Holy Spirit striving with them! Striving with them to do what? Accept the [Everlasting Gospel] of Revelation 14:6. Check out Leviticus 17:7-8's day of Atonement for others that were saved by faith.

--John

Nice John, I had indeed forgot about Rahab. She was saved for helping the Isrealites out and GOD honored that, they did not go looking for her, she just happened to be there to help them. Did you ever think that Rahab was actually a traitor to her people? Doesn't really matter here, but still strange. Another thought shown below.

Hebrews 11:31
By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

James 2:25
Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

Hebrews says saved by faith and James says saved by works. Strange huh? The point I'm making is that TORAH was not given to the Gentiles. Gentile is a term used to describe all of those that are not Isrealites, before Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Ever noticed that GOD was always refered to as the GOD of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? Not saying that a Gentile could not be saved, in fact Rahab is in the direct lineage of Jesus Christ, but the TORAH was given to Isreal, not the Gentiles.

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OK: Next question then. :fadein:

Why was Israel put into God's picture, for what purpose?

--John