Which passages make up the best evidence that Christ will return bodily?

[Hitch]

I'm feelin the love.

- Davies

Well Dave dont you think if 14;4 really paints a picture of the second advent at least one apostle would have mentioned it? And really can you say the mountain will actually break in half while knowing the 'sheep' are not animals at all?
I reckon its always better to submit our own thinking to revelation, and the apostolic authority invariably places these events at or near the first century. To put it another way ,100% of the citations ,that I know of, place the events Zech writes about in the first century, and that also means that if any part is future, and very distant future from the apostles, they never give any evidence of it.

Probably hundreds of,if not thousands , 'end time' teachers can be quoted giving assurances that 14;4 is future and not only future but literal.
Quote me one Apostle.

 

[smaller]

What happens?

2 Peter 3:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. (just Jews of 70 a.d? LOL)
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. (Just the temple in 70 a.d? LOL)

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.


s

 

[Hitch]

What happens?

2 Peter 3:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. (just Jews of 70 a.d? LOL)
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. (Just the temple in 70 a.d? LOL)

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.


s

LOL

• ' 4. On this foundation I affirm that the heavens and earth here intended in this prophecy of Peter, the coming of the Lord, the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men, mentioned in the destruction of that heaven and earth, do all of them relate, not to the last and final judgment of the world, but to that utter desolation and destruction that was to be made of the Judaical church and state; for which I shall offer these two reasons, of many that might be insisted on from the text:- '(1.) Because whatever is here mentioned was to have its peculiar influence on the men of that generation. He speaks of that wherein both the profane scoffers and those scoffed at were concerned, and that as Jews, some of them believing, others opposing, the faith. Now there was no particular concernment of that generation, nor in that sin, nor in that scoffing, as to the day of judment in general ; but there was a peculiar relief for the one and a peculiar dread for the other at hand, in the destruction of the Jewish nation ; and, besides, an ample testimony both to the one and the other of the power and dominion of tile Lord Jesus Christ, which was the thing in question between them. '(2.) Peter tells them, that after the destruction and judgment that he speaks of (vers. 7-13), " We, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth,' etc. They had this expectation. But what is that promise? Where may we find it? Why, we have it in the very words and letter, Isa. lxv. 17. Now, when shall this be that God shall create these new heavens and new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness? Saith Peter, " It shall be after the coming of the Lord, after that judgment and destruction of ungodly men, who obey not the gospel, that I foretell." But now it is evident from this place of Isaiah, with chap. lxvi. 21, 22, that this is a prophecy of Gospel times only; and that the planting of these new heavens is nothing but the creation of Gospel ordinances to endure for ever. The same thing is so expressed Heb. xii. 26-28. ' This being the design of the place, I shall not insist longer on the context, but briefly open the words proposed, and fix upon the truth continued in them. 'First, There is the foundation of the apostle's inference and exhortation, seeing that all these things, however precious they seem, or what value soever any put upon them, shall be dissolved, that is, destroyed; and that in that dreadful and fearful manner before mentioned, in a day of judgment, wrath, and vengeance, by fire and sword; let others mock at the threats of Christ's coming: He will come- He will not tarry; and then the heavens and earth that God Himself planted, -the sun, moon, and stars of the Judaical polity and church, -the whole old world of worship and worshippers, that stand out in their obstinancy against the Lord Christ, shall be sensibly dissolved and destroyed: this we know shall be the end of these things, and that shortly. 'There is no outward constitution nor frame of things in government or nations, but it is subject to a dissolution, and may receive it, and that in a way of judgment. If any might plead exemption, that, on many accounts, of which the apostle was discoursing in prophetical terms (for it was not yet time to speak it openly to all) might interpose for its share.'*

http://www.eschatology.com/owen2peter.html

 

[smaller]

LOL

• ' 4. On this foundation I affirm that the heavens and earth here intended in this prophecy of Peter, the coming of the Lord, the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men, mentioned in the destruction of that heaven and earth, do all of them relate, not to the last and final judgment of the world, but to that utter desolation and destruction that was to be made of the Judaical church and state; for which I shall offer these two reasons, of many that might be insisted on from the text:- '(1.) Because whatever is here mentioned was to have its peculiar influence on the men of that generation. He speaks of that wherein both the profane scoffers and those scoffed at were concerned, and that as Jews, some of them believing, others opposing, the faith. Now there was no particular concernment of that generation, nor in that sin, nor in that scoffing, as to the day of judment in general ; but there was a peculiar relief for the one and a peculiar dread for the other at hand, in the destruction of the Jewish nation ; and, besides, an ample testimony both to the one and the other of the power and dominion of tile Lord Jesus Christ, which was the thing in question between them. '(2.) Peter tells them, that after the destruction and judgment that he speaks of (vers. 7-13), " We, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth,' etc. They had this expectation. But what is that promise? Where may we find it? Why, we have it in the very words and letter, Isa. lxv. 17. Now, when shall this be that God shall create these new heavens and new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness? Saith Peter, " It shall be after the coming of the Lord, after that judgment and destruction of ungodly men, who obey not the gospel, that I foretell." But now it is evident from this place of Isaiah, with chap. lxvi. 21, 22, that this is a prophecy of Gospel times only; and that the planting of these new heavens is nothing but the creation of Gospel ordinances to endure for ever. The same thing is so expressed Heb. xii. 26-28. ' This being the design of the place, I shall not insist longer on the context, but briefly open the words proposed, and fix upon the truth continued in them. 'First, There is the foundation of the apostle's inference and exhortation, seeing that all these things, however precious they seem, or what value soever any put upon them, shall be dissolved, that is, destroyed; and that in that dreadful and fearful manner before mentioned, in a day of judgment, wrath, and vengeance, by fire and sword; let others mock at the threats of Christ's coming: He will come- He will not tarry; and then the heavens and earth that God Himself planted, -the sun, moon, and stars of the Judaical polity and church, -the whole old world of worship and worshippers, that stand out in their obstinancy against the Lord Christ, shall be sensibly dissolved and destroyed: this we know shall be the end of these things, and that shortly. 'There is no outward constitution nor frame of things in government or nations, but it is subject to a dissolution, and may receive it, and that in a way of judgment. If any might plead exemption, that, on many accounts, of which the apostle was discoursing in prophetical terms (for it was not yet time to speak it openly to all) might interpose for its share.'*

http://www.eschatology.com/owen2peter.html

Yeah, let's take some COMMON tator who redefines Peters words, even re-writes them, rather than Peter's own words.

lol with that too.

s

 

[Hitch]

John Owen,,, 'some common tater' . :toofunny:toofunny:toofunny

 

[smaller]

John Owen,,, 'some common tater' . :toofunny:toofunny:toofunny

Oh yeah, John Owen is far better than an Apostle...:eeeekkk

sure...

s

 

[Hitch]

Far better than you.

 

[smaller]

Far better than you.

Peter's facts are just fine with me, thank you.

s

 

[Hitch]

Peter's facts are just fine with me, thank you.

s

And I ,for one, have complete confidence that your own expositions will remain in the forefront of Reformed thinking 350 years hence and Owen will be rendered to the ash heap of failed theologians.

 

[smaller]

And I ,for one, have complete confidence that your own expositions will remain in the forefront of Reformed thinking 350 years hence and Owen will be rendered to the ash heap of failed theologians.

If John Owen considered the sum of ungodly men to the only the Jews of 70 a.d. he'd be just as blind as anyone else.

If John Owen considered the earth and the works therein to be only the temple of 70 a.d., rinse and repeat.

Any common tater can sift those facts and land them on the past to defer from the future.

Evil men, evil works and the elements are going bye bye just as the Apostles taught.

You are welcome to defer the matters and rest on your laurels. Doesn't matter one bit to me other than to show the falsehood of such things.

1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout

s

 

[Davies]

Quote me one Apostle.

In Joel chapter 2, we are given a description of the Day of the Lord and the victory His army has over the people there. In verse 2 we have the dark clouds which would be consistent with Jesus coming in like manner as He left. In verse 11, we see the LORD gives voice before His army. Now, I understand that doesn't necessarily mean the Jesus is physically there, but given Zechariah's description of the Day of the Lord and Revelation 19, I'd say there is a literal army that descends from Heaven.

Revelation 19:11-15
New King James Version (NKJV)
Christ on a White Horse


11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had[a] a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp[c] sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. - Apostle John

I hope you still love me, even if we disagree.

- Davies

 

[Hitch]

In Joel chapter 2, we are given a description of the Day of the Lord and the victory His army has over the people there. In verse 2 we have the dark clouds which would be consistent with Jesus coming in like manner as He left. In verse 11, we see the LORD gives voice before His army. Now, I understand that doesn't necessarily mean the Jesus is physically there, but given Zechariah's description of the Day of the Lord and Revelation 19, I'd say there is a literal army that descends from Heaven.

A famous man told me that Joel's word was fulfilled 2,000 years ago.

Revelation 19:11-15
New King James Version (NKJV)
Christ on a White Horse


11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had[a] a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp[c] sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. - Apostle John

Do you think its possible the 'sword' is an allusion to the proclamation of the Gospel and the effect that proclamation has in history? Was there ever a time when Davies was an enemy of God? If that is true then we should see growth in the kingdom even to this day. I can can you? You're right about the army descending from heaven, after all isnt heaven the origin of the church?

I hope you still love me, even if we disagree.

- Davies

 

[Davies]

Do you think its possible the 'sword' is an allusion to the proclamation of the Gospel and the effect that proclamation has in history? I can can you? You're right about the army descending from heaven, after all isnt heaven the origin of the church?

Considering Jesus will use His word to strike the nations, because the Day of the Lord is a day of vengeance, I don't see this as a proclamation of the Gospel. The proclamation of the Gospel will have gone throughout the earth by an angel in the very end already.

You can also see the continuation of the narrative that an angel invites the birds to eat the flesh of men and horses. This return of Jesus is not a call to repentance, it's a gathering for judgment. Plus, besides the two, false prophet and beast being cast into the lake of fire, the rest were killed by the sword of His mouth and the birds did eat them.

- Davies

Revelation 19:17-21
New King James Version (NKJV)
The Beast and His Armies Defeated


17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God,[a] 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.â€
19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

 

[Davies]

Hi Hitch,

I stumbled upon another verse which isn't very clear but could be interpreted as a physical second coming of Jesus.

Hebrews 9:28
New King James Version (NKJV)
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

He appeared once. This is His first appearance of from birth to ascension. The second appearing, is it only in heaven when Jesus appears the for the second time? We have too many Scriptures that tell us otherwise. I think it's safe to say Hebrews 9:28 means a second appearance on Earth, because Heaven was always the place of His habitation.

- Davies

 

[n2thelight]

This should be understood as literally as 13;7 Yawn. There are good reasons you never quote an apostle teaching this. Every time 'ol Zech is quoted in the NT it is to confirm the past or contemporary fulfillment of the passage and not one includes the ridiculously strained woodenly literal interpretation you require.

13:7 and the verse I gave don't compare,it's just your way of spiritualizing away,that which is literal......

Christ feet shall touch the mount of olives......

That's when the below verse shall truely come to pass

Matthew 24:2 "And Jesus said unto them, "See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

Jesus prophecy in verse two tells us that "there shall not one stone upon another," and that condition has not happened yet. All of the stones of the temple will be turned to dust, at that end of this earth age. Zechariah 14 gives us a profile of how Jerusalem will be, and the events that shall transpire at that time. When Satan has taken his seat in Jerusalem, fulfilling the role of the Antichrist.

 

[Hitch]

Considering Jesus will use His word to strike the nations, because the Day of the Lord is a day of vengeance, I don't see this as a proclamation of the Gospel. The proclamation of the Gospel will have gone throughout the earth by an angel in the very end already.

You can also see the continuation of the narrative that an angel invites the birds to eat the flesh of men and horses. This return of Jesus is not a call to repentance, it's a gathering for judgment. Plus, besides the two, false prophet and beast being cast into the lake of fire, the rest were killed by the sword of His mouth and the birds did eat them.

- Davies

Revelation 19:17-21
New King James Version (NKJV)
The Beast and His Armies Defeated


17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God,[a] 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”
19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

I asked you whether Davies had ever been and enemy of God. I'll ask again ,it that former enemy Davies dead and now resurrected in Christ?

If this is so was there any cause beyond the truth of the Gospel?

And face it Dave literalising this passage brings up all sorts of problems.

 

[Hitch]

Hi Hitch,

I stumbled upon another verse which isn't very clear but could be interpreted as a physical second coming of Jesus.

Hebrews 9:28
New King James Version (NKJV)
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

He appeared once. This is His first appearance of from birth to ascension. The second appearing, is it only in heaven when Jesus appears the for the second time? We have too many Scriptures that tell us otherwise. I think it's safe to say Hebrews 9:28 means a second appearance on Earth, because Heaven was always the place of His habitation.

- Davies

Very strong.

In order to achieve the work of the cross it was obviously necessary that Christ 'appear' in the flesh. I dont think its possible to separate the 'flesh' (bodily) from the two mentioned here and it would strain the context to oblivion to find any more than two appearances of this nature. Neither does this passage bring any harm to notion of Christ 'coming'* in the spiritual (non adventual ) sense.




* Gentry's He shall Have Dominion , pgs 271-275



Consummation 273

We know that the disciples (and other believers) are with the Lord in heaven after their deaths (Phil. 1:21-23; 2 Cor. 5:6-9). Hence, this statement must mean He comes to them at their deaths. Though Stephen’s death is unique in Scripture, it may indicate something of Christ’s personal involvement in the deaths of all His saints (Acts 7:59). Are we left to find our way to heaven? Or does Christ personally receive His own into the presence of the Father? After all, Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me” (John 14:6). He comes into the presence of the Father at His ascension, in order to receive His kingdom. “I was watching in the night visions, and behold, One like the Son of Man, coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, and they brought Him near before Him” (Dan. 7:13). He leaves the world so that He may “come” to the Father: “Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. . . . Now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world” (John 17:11, 13a).7 Beyond these spiritual comings and in addition to the bodily second advent, there is another sort of coming. This is a providential coming of Christ in historical judgments upon men. In the Old Testament, clouds are frequently employed as symbols of divine wrath and judgment. Often God is seen surrounded with foreboding clouds which express His unapproachable holiness and righteousness.8 Thus, God is poetically portrayed in certain judgment scenes as coming in the clouds to wreak historical vengeance upon His enemies. For example: “The burden against Egypt. Behold, the LORD rides on a swift cloud, and will come into Egypt; the idols of Egypt will totter at His presence, and the heart of Egypt will melt in its midst” (Isa. 19:1 ).9

 

[Hitch]

13:7 and the verse I gave don't compare,it's just your way of spiritualizing away,that which is literal......

Literally 13;7 and 14;8 leave your reference bracketed with NT revelation ascribing the event to the first century.

Christ feet shall touch the mount of olives......

They did, but that doesnt really have anything to do with the imagery of God stomping His enemies

That's when the below verse shall truely come to pass

Matthew 24:2 "And Jesus said unto them, "See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

Jesus prophecy in verse two tells us that "there shall not one stone upon another," and that condition has not happened yet. All of the stones of the temple will be turned to dust, at that end of this earth age. Zechariah 14 gives us a profile of how Jerusalem will be, and the events that shall transpire at that time. When Satan has taken his seat in Jerusalem, fulfilling the role of the Antichrist.

Well I already asked for your apostolic quote placing ol' Zech in the future, you couldnt fine one. No surprise there.

I wont ask for one wrt the temple you need , you couldnt find that either.



The temple was destroyed and not only the temple building but the entire apostate religion.

Why not just believe what Jesus said?

 

[Hitch]

But then lots of folks think 12;10 is future too. Go figure.

 

[Davies]

I asked you whether Davies had ever been and enemy of God. I'll ask again ,it that former enemy Davies dead and now resurrected in Christ?

If this is so was there any cause beyond the truth of the Gospel?

Hi Hitch,

I don't think in the context of Revelation 19 that I am an enemy of God. By God's grace, I will be in His army executing the war which God's brings to His enemies. In our time, I once was an enemy of God by the wicked works I had done, but, now, reconciled through the Gospel.

Colossians 1:21-22
New King James Version (NKJV)
21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight—

You asked the question if there was any cause beyond the truth of the Gospel. I think one cause is the judgment of God which is part of our inheritance. But this is beyond my understanding, especially with my sin fresh in my face. The glorified Davies will have perfect understanding one day.

Isaiah 54:17
New King James Version (NKJV)
17 No weapon formed against you shall prosper,
And every tongue which rises against you in judgment
You shall condemn.
This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD,
And their righteousness is from Me,â€
Says the LORD.

- Davies