Who are the 144,000 ?

[Quasar]

Hi friends,

According to the Bible, both Jesus and Paul revealed, all of us who belong to Jesus, His Church, are to be CAUGHT UP [Raptured] to Him in the clouds of the sky, before the Antichrist is revealed who triggers the seven years of tribulation, that Israel has been decreed to go through. The supporting Scripture for that is as follows:

[In connection with the Church = Jn.14:1-4 and 28; 1 Thes.4:14-18 and 2 Thes.2:1-8]. In connection with Israel = [Dan.9:27, where the "he" who 'confirms a covenant/treaty' with Israel for one WEEK [7 years] is the Antichrist. And the same "he" who breaks the covenant in the middle of the WEEK, after 3.5 years of peace. 2 Thes.2:3-4 and 8. Also, Mt.24:15 and Rev.6:2, the first of the four horseman of the apocalypse, riding the white horse.

Jesus said He has two sheep folds, the one He was addressing, Israel, and the 'other one He must also bring,' the Church [Jn.10:16]. He prophecied that they will become one fold with one Shepherd. He also said, many who are first will be last [Israel] and many who are last will be first [The Church] in Mt.19:30.

He meant His Church will be caught up to be with Him before the tribulation and that Israel will go through the tribulation. When Israel finally recognizes Jesus as their Messiah [Zech.12:10] , they will then come into the same sheep fold as the Church and become the one fold, with Jesus being the one Shepherd.


When the Church is Caught Up to be with the Lord in heaven, the Antichrist IS REVEALED and the tribulation begins [Dan.9:27 and 2 Thes.2:3-4 and 8].

When the overview of the tribulation has been completed in Rev.6, covered in the six seals, when the seventh seal that contains the seven trumpet plagues is about to take place, God introduces 144,000 that consists of 12,000 Israelites from twelve of their tribes, that He 'redeemed from the earth' [Rev.7:1-8 and 14:3]. God sealed them from being killed by the Antichrist while they preached the Gospel to all who will be left on the earth after the Church has been Raptured, TO TAKE THE PLACE OF THE RAPTURED CHURCH. They will be put here to preach the Gospel in the absence of the Church [Rev.7:1-8].

The efforts of their work as evangelists is then revealed in the PARENTHETIC view of the Great Multitude seen in heaven [Rev.7:9-17], which represents all of those who will be saved during the tribulation, as seen in Rev.7:14, a preview of all the martyrs who participate in the first resurrection of Rev.20:4-6. THEY DO NOT BELONG TO THE RAPTURED CHURCH.

When their work is finished, the 144,000 will be translated, in Rev.14:1-5. When that happens, the earth will once again be without anyone to preach the Eternal Gospel. So God commissions an angel to do so in Rev.14:6-7.

Therefore, the 144,000 are all converted Israelis who take the place of the Raptured Church to preach the Gospel to all those who will be left behind when Jesus comes to take His Church with Him to our Father in heaven, as He and Paul teach us in Jn.14:2-4, 28, 1 Thes.4:14-18 and 2 Thes.2:1-8.

In view of the fact there will be no one to preach the Gospel on earth after the Church, the 144,000 have to come from heaven, as do the two witnesses in Rev.11. When Jesus was crucified and died, He commended His Spirit to His Father in Lk.23:46. In 1 Pet.3:18-20, we find that Jesus, in Spirit, went to the prison [Sheol] below, to preach to the wicked, all the way back to the days of Noah.

In OT times, all the dead bodies were buried in what the Hebrews called Sheol, that we refer to as the grave. They also used the same term to express the place where the spirit/souls went after the body died as well. A perfect profile of this can be found in Lk,16:19-31, about Lazarus and the rich man.

Because in OT times, before Jesus shed His blood, atoning for sins, once for us all, it was impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins, as written in Heb.10:4. therefore, all the righteous spirit/souls went to Sheol as well as the wicked and the godless, as can also be seen in Ps.49:14-15.

Therefore, after Christ died and shed His blood for us all, as was prophecied in Ps.68:18, and repeated in Eph.4:7-10 when it was fulfilled, Jesus took all the righteous spirit/souls with Him, when He ascended into heaven. This is where the 144,000 came from, whom Jesus converted, when He went in Spirit to preach the Gospel to those who were in Sheol.

It might be well to add, another reason God selected an Elect from Israel, is because it is Israel who will go through the tribulation. What better evangelist could there be than converted Israelites preaching to their Israelitebrothers and sisters?


Blessings,


Quasar

 

[J6o7h8n3]

Because in OT times, before Jesus shed His blood, atoning for sins, once for us all, it was impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins, as written in Heb.10:4. therefore, all the righteous spirit/souls went to Sheol as well as the wicked and the godless, as can also be seen in Ps.49:14-15.

Your right, however the righteous were not in torment as the wicked were.

Question: "Where did Old Testament believers go when they died? Did Jesus take them to Heaven after His death? What about unsaved people from the Old Testament, what happened to them?"



Answer: The Old Testament teaches life after death, and that all people went to a place of conscious existence called Sheol. The wicked were there (Psalm 9:17; 31:17; 49:14; Isaiah 5:14), and so were the righteous (Genesis 37:35; Job 14:13; Psalm 6:5; 16:10; 88:3; Isaiah 38:10).



The New Testament equivalent of Sheol is Hades. Prior to Christ’s resurrection, Luke 16:19-31 shows Hades to be divided into two realms: a place of comfort where Lazarus was, and a place of torment where the rich man was. The word hell in verse 23 is not “Gehenna†(place of eternal torment) but “Hades†(place of the dead). Lazarus’s place of comfort is elsewhere called Paradise (Luke 23:43). Between these two districts of Hades is “a great gulf fixed†(Luke 16:26).



Jesus is described as having descended into Hades after His death (Acts 2:27, 31; cf. Ephesians 4:9). At the resurrection of Jesus Christ, it seems that the believers in Hades (i.e., the occupants of Paradise) were moved to another location. Now, Paradise is above rather than below (2 Corinthians 12:2-4).



Today, when a believer dies, he is “present with the Lord†(2 Corinthians 5:6-9). When an unbeliever dies, he follows the Old Testament unbelievers to Hades. At the final judgment, Hades will be emptied before the Great White Throne, where its occupants will be judged prior to entering the lake of fire (Revelation 20:13-15).

 

[Quasar]

Thread subject

Very astute observation, J6o7h8n3! Thanks for your input.

We are on the same page completely. You may have missed what I wrote about Jesus narrative in Lk.16:19-31 about Lazarus and the rich man as being a perfect profile of OT Sheol, and reinforced in Ps.49:14-15.

QUOTE:

>>>In OT times, all the dead bodies were buried in what the Hebrews called Sheol, that we refer to as the grave. They also used the same term to express the place where the spirit/souls went after the body died as well. A perfect profile of this can be found in Lk,16:19-31, about Lazarus and the rich man.

Because in OT times, before Jesus shed His blood, atoning for sins, once for us all, it was impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins, as written in Heb.10:4. therefore, all the righteous spirit/souls went to Sheol as well as the wicked and the godless, as can also be seen in Ps.49:14-15.<<<


I'm glad you pointed out where all of us who belong to Christ go, after our physical death, in NT times, after Jesus shed His blood, paying our sin debts in full.

Your bro in Christ,

Quasar

 

[Darrell dunn]

This is what comes from human reasoning.

This is not the what God told me when teaching me scriptures.

There is only one absolute truth and all else is a lie!!!

 

[lecoop]

Hi friends,

According to the Bible, both Jesus and Paul revealed, all of us who belong to Jesus, His Church, are to be CAUGHT UP [Raptured] to Him in the clouds of the sky, before the Antichrist is revealed who triggers the seven years of tribulation, that Israel has been decreed to go through. The supporting Scripture for that is as follows:

[In connection with the Church = Jn.14:1-4 and 28; 1 Thes.4:14-18 and 2 Thes.2:1-8]. In connection with Israel = [Dan.9:27, where the "he" who 'confirms a covenant/treaty' with Israel for one WEEK [7 years] is the Antichrist. And the same "he" who breaks the covenant in the middle of the WEEK, after 3.5 years of peace. 2 Thes.2:3-4 and 8. Also, Mt.24:15 and Rev.6:2, the first of the four horseman of the apocalypse, riding the white horse.

Of course I disagree with your take on the white horse. The white horse and rider are to represent the church, sent out to make disciples of all nations. A careful reader will note that there is not one word in the description of the horse and rider that gives any hint of evil. When one discovers from the context that this horse and rider were sent out very shortly after Jesus rose from the dead, then saying that he is the antichrist thousands of years into the future is silly. Then, when one studies what the next three horsemen accomplish, it is very evident that this is history to us.

Jesus said He has two sheep folds, the one He was addressing, Israel, and the 'other one He must also bring,' the Church [Jn.10:16]. He prophecied that they will become one fold with one Shepherd. He also said, many who are first will be last [Israel] and many who are last will be first [The Church] in Mt.19:30.

He meant His Church will be caught up to be with Him before the tribulation and that Israel will go through the tribulation. When Israel finally recognizes Jesus as their Messiah [Zech.12:10] , they will then come into the same sheep fold as the Church and become the one fold, with Jesus being the one Shepherd.


When the Church is Caught Up to be with the Lord in heaven, the Antichrist IS REVEALED and the tribulation begins [Dan.9:27 and 2 Thes.2:3-4 and 8].

When the overview of the tribulation has been completed in Rev.6, covered in the six seals, when the seventh seal that contains the seven trumpet plagues is about to take place, God introduces 144,000 that consists of 12,000 Israelites from twelve of their tribes, that He 'redeemed from the earth' [Rev.7:1-8 and 14:3]. God sealed them from being killed by the Antichrist while they preached the Gospel to all who will be left on the earth after the Church has been Raptured, TO TAKE THE PLACE OF THE RAPTURED CHURCH. They will be put here to preach the Gospel in the absence of the Church [Rev.7:1-8].

Again, I must disagree. The seals are definitely not an "overview" of the "tribulation." They are an overview of the time of the church, from the time that Jesus rose from the dead, up to now. In fact, an astute reader will see that the cosmic signs at the sixth seal are the fulfilling of the prophecy in Joel, showing that the "day of the Lord" is about to start then, not way back with the first seal.

Once again, we see the myth that these 144,000 preach the gospel. It is a myth, because there is not one shread of scriptural evidence to back this idea up. Yes, they are on the earth during the first 3 1/2 years, during the time of the trumpets. They may indeed preach the gospel, but there is not one scripture to back this up. The great crowd is seen "back to back," so to speak, with the sealing of the 144,000, making it VERY unlikely that this crowd has anything to do with the 144,000, or the 144,000 has anything to do with the great crowd. What we do see is that God performs the sealing, for protection, before the "day of the Lord," and the 70th week even starts. This make a lot of sense. The "hurt" has not yet started, and cannot start until this sealing is accomplished. These 144,000 will not be "put" anywhere! They are already here! They will be here on earth during the time of the trumpets, the first 1260 days of the 70th week. God will not need to "put" anyone here after the rapture, for millions of people will turn to God during the first 1260 days of the week, many as soon as they see that they missed the rapture.

The efforts of their work as evangelists is then revealed in the PARENTHETIC view of the Great Multitude seen in heaven [Rev.7:9-17], which represents all of those who will be saved during the tribulation, as seen in Rev.7:14, a preview of all the martyrs who participate in the first resurrection of Rev.20:4-6. THEY DO NOT BELONG TO THE RAPTURED CHURCH.

Please keep in mind that the 70th week and the "day of the Lord," has not yet started, when this great crowd is seen. Please let this "sink in." John has not got to the 70th week yet! Anything that happens here, before the 7th seal, is BEFORE the "70th week," BEFORE the "great tribulation," and BEFORE the trumpets and vials. Therefore, the great crowd cannot come from the first 1260 days, nor the second 1260 days: no, not from the 70th week at all, for it has not yet started.

What great crowd would pre-tribber expect to see translated into heaven just before the 70th week? Of course, we expect the church will be raptured just before the 70th week. This great crowd is none other than the church of our Lord Jesus Christ. We can expect to be in that great crowd!

Why then does John write that they came out of "great tribulation?" The answer is very easy. John said in chapter one, that he was "in tribulation." We are in "tribulation" today. Those Christians that live in Sudan, and other Muslim countries are in "great tribulation." They are dying for their testimony. We could say the same thing for many in China that have died for their testimony. There were in "great tribulation," that is, until they died. Then their tribulation was over. As we approach the time of the end, tribulation will get worse and worse. By the time of the rapture, the church will be experiencing great tribulation everywhere. How can "tribulation" get any greater than when one dies? It cannot. Therefore, there is no argument against this great crowd being the church, having just been raptured. The timing is right: just before the 70th week begins. The discription fits the church perfectly.





When their work is finished, the 144,000 will be translated, in Rev.14:1-5. When that happens, the earth will once again be without anyone to preach the Eternal Gospel. So God commissions an angel to do so in Rev.14:6-7.

I will agree that they are raptured. They are the firstfruits of the Jews.

Therefore, the 144,000 are all converted Israelis who take the place of the Raptured Church to preach the Gospel to all those who will be left behind when Jesus comes to take His Church with Him to our Father in heaven, as He and Paul teach us in Jn.14:2-4, 28, 1 Thes.4:14-18 and 2 Thes.2:1-8.

This is nothing more that smoke and mirrors! There is no scripture to back this idea up! They are sealed, but there is no verse that tells us what they do.

In view of the fact there will be no one to preach the Gospel on earth after the Church, the 144,000 have to come from heaven, as do the two witnesses in Rev.11. When Jesus was crucified and died, He commended His Spirit to His Father in Lk.23:46. In 1 Pet.3:18-20, we find that Jesus, in Spirit, went to the prison [Sheol] below, to preach to the wicked, all the way back to the days of Noah.

Come from heaven? What verse tells us this? More smoke and mirrors! More "keystone cops." The 144,000 are already here; flesh and blood people!

In OT times, all the dead bodies were buried in what the Hebrews called Sheol, that we refer to as the grave. They also used the same term to express the place where the spirit/souls went after the body died as well. A perfect profile of this can be found in Lk,16:19-31, about Lazarus and the rich man.

Because in OT times, before Jesus shed His blood, atoning for sins, once for us all, it was impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins, as written in Heb.10:4. therefore, all the righteous spirit/souls went to Sheol as well as the wicked and the godless, as can also be seen in Ps.49:14-15.

Now this I can agree with! We have scripture to back this up!

Therefore, after Christ died and shed His blood for us all, as was prophecied in Ps.68:18, and repeated in Eph.4:7-10 when it was fulfilled, Jesus took all the righteous spirit/souls with Him, when He ascended into heaven. This is where the 144,000 came from, whom Jesus converted, when He went in Spirit to preach the Gospel to those who were in Sheol.

More smoke and mirrors! More ad libbing! More myths. All these people that Jesus took to heaven, are in heaven. None have come back. None will come back, until we all get on white horses.

It might be well to add, another reason God selected an Elect from Israel, is because it is Israel who will go through the tribulation. What better evangelist could there be than converted Israelites preaching to their Israelitebrothers and sisters?


Blessings,


Quasar

Coop's answers in brown.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

John says that they are Jews.
He names the tribes and the number from each tribe.
The greatest tribulation that has come upon the Jews since Moses led them out of Egypt happened a little over 60 years ago.

Just a thought:
How many Jews got saved in Nazi Germany Concentration camps in WWII?

 

[Quasar]

Thread subject

John says that they are Jews.
He names the tribes and the number from each tribe.
The greatest tribulation that has come upon the Jews since Moses led them out of Egypt happened a little over 60 years ago.

Just a thought:
How many Jews got saved in Nazi Germany Concentration camps in WWII?

Q: You're right, Gabbylittleangel,

That's what/who Israel is, Jews, as I called them above. As for 'how many were saved in Nazi Germany concentration camps during WW2,' depends upon the following: 1. All the German concentration camps during WW2 were not in Germany, but also in Poland. 2. Saved by U.S. troops, or by Jesus Christ? If you mean the latter, only God knows.

If you really want to know the total number of those rescued after Germany was defeated, and where all the concentration camps were, I'll find the links for you to access the info from on the Internet.

Most historians place the number of them killed as six million.

Blessings,

Quasar

 

[Quasar]

Thread subject

Quote by Coop:

>>>I will agree that they are raptured. They are the firstfruits of the Jews.<<<


If they are to be raptured, they would belong to the Church, which they do not! They are translated back into heaven from where they came from, in the same way the two witnesses will be, of Rev.11.


Quote by Coop:

>>>Please keep in mind that the 70th week and the "day of the Lord," has not yet started, when this great crowd is seen. Please let this "sink in." John has not got to the 70th week yet! Anything that happens here, before the 7th seal, is BEFORE the "70th week," BEFORE the "great tribulation," and BEFORE the trumpets and vials. Therefore, the great crowd cannot come from the first 1260 days, nor the second 1260 days: no, not from the 70th week at all, for it has not yet started.

What great crowd would pre-tribber expect to see translated into heaven just before the 70th week? Of course, we expect the church will be raptured just before the 70th week. This great crowd is none other than the church of our Lord Jesus Christ. We can expect to be in that great crowd!

Why then does John write that they came out of "great tribulation?" The answer is very easy. John said in chapter one, that he was "in tribulation." We are in "tribulation" today. Those Christians that live in Sudan, and other Muslim countries are in "great tribulation." They are dying for their testimony. We could say the same thing for many in China that have died for their testimony. There were in "great tribulation," that is, until they died. Then their tribulation was over. As we approach the time of the end, tribulation will get worse and worse. By the time of the rapture, the church will be experiencing great tribulation everywhere. How can "tribulation" get any greater than when one dies? It cannot. Therefore, there is no argument against this great crowd being the church, having just been raptured. The timing is right: just before the 70th week begins. The discription fits the church perfectly.<<<


Q: The Church does not go through the tribulation, period! The Great Multitude of Rev.7, is a preview [PARENTHETIC of all those who will participate in the first resurrectio in Rev.20:4-6], who will be saved by the 144,000 Israeli 'evangelists,' whom God will place on the earth as I pointed out previously, to take the place of the Church that will be raptured BEFORE THE TRIBULATION BEGINS, as the Scriptures clearly reveal in 2 Thes.2:3-4 and 7-8, JUST BEFORE THE ANTICHRIST IS REVEALED, AS IN DAN.9:27 AND REV.6:2, THE FIRST OF THE FOUR RIDERS, ON THE WHITE HORSE!


Quote by Coop:

>>>This is nothing more that smoke and mirrors! There is no scripture to back this idea up! They are sealed, but there is no verse that tells us what they do.<<<


Q: Show me your credentials to qualify you to try shouting down anyone who does have them, with the distortions you freely broadcast, that are completely false, and without proper Scriptural support of any kind. The diatribe you claim there is no Scriptural support for is also false and reveals you either didn't read it, and if you did, you simply don't understand it. John is not revealed in Rev.7 as being in the tribulation! Jesus called Him into heaven in Rev.4:1-2, where he is viewing the scenes before him! You don't understand the Scriptures either, nor did the HS ever provide you the gift of prophecy, which is equally clear. It's time for you to stop doing so much broadcasting of Scriptural matters and start doing some watching and listening!


Quote by Coop:

>>>Come from heaven? What verse tells us this? More smoke and mirrors! More "keystone cops." The 144,000 are already here; flesh and blood people!<<<


Q: Where do you think the two witnesses of God coming from, in Rev.11? What makes you think God cannot place 144,000 on the earth from heaven as well. I have provided the Scriptural support for it. If you don't believe it, then stop criticizing and give us an idea of where you think they will come from.

Since they do not appear on the scene until just before the seventh seal which contains the seven trumpet judgements. It has been Scripturally proven, the Church has been raptured, so please tell me who converts them to belong to Christ, unless it is Christ Himself, since no one is left on the earth to preach the Gospel to them!


Understand this: I could care less what you think about my views as compared to the distortions you fly by the seat of your pants with, comprende! Another thing; stop editing in my quotes as you are violating my rights for presenting my views without being diluted with yours! As a Forums Administrator at another Christian site for six years, that was a violation of our rules! [Vic, and other ads and mods, please take note].


Peace,


Quasar

 

[Vic C.]

Another thing; stop editing in my quotes as you are violating my rights for presenting my views without being diluted with yours! As a Forums Administrator at another Christian site for six years, that was a violation of our rules! [Vic, and other ads and mods, please take note].

If you are talking about the comments people make in "color" within a quote, I agree. I don't harass anyone for doing it as long as it's legible and not convoluted.

I do wish that all would use the conventional quote style found in most PHP-based BBSs and quote only the text that pertains to 'your' reply.

[quote] text here [/quote]

It just 'looks' better and is not that hard to do... no harder than inserting colored text or >>> <<< into a quote or post. :wink:

 

[lecoop]

Sorry, I did not think anyone would have a problem with answering in color, in a quote.

Quasar said, in reference to the 144,000:

If they are to be raptured, they would belong to the Church, which they do not! They are translated back into heaven from where they came from, in the same way the two witnesses will be, of Rev.11.

You keep saying this, but please show us some scripture to back it up. Are the two witnesses part of the church? Of course not! Yet they are raptured. So why put God in a box, and say that He cannot rapture (catch away) the 144,000. Did you ever stop to think, that if people came from heaven, they would be spirits, not physical bodies, and would need no seal for protection. You idea is just silly.


Quasar said

The Church does not go through the tribulation, period! The Great Multitude of Rev.7, is a preview [PARENTHETIC of all those who will participate in the first resurrectio in Rev.20:4-6], who will be saved by the 144,000 Israeli 'evangelists,' whom God will place on the earth as I pointed out previously, to take the place of the Church that will be raptured BEFORE THE TRIBULATION BEGINS, as the Scriptures clearly reveal in 2 Thes.2:3-4 and 7-8, JUST BEFORE THE ANTICHRIST IS REVEALED, AS IN DAN.9:27 AND REV.6:2, THE FIRST OF THE FOUR RIDERS, ON THE WHITE HORSE!

I have always said that the church does not go through the 70th week. In that we agree. It is just what John saw in his vision after he saw the 144,000 sealed. If you were the "boss" and it was up to you to seal the 144,000, would you do it before the "hurt" begins, or would you do it after much "hurt" had started? If you wait, there is a good chance that some of the 144,000 would be killed before they were sealed. If you insist that the 70th week starts with the first seal, then you are also saying that God chose to perforn the sealing in the middle of the "hurt." However, God chose to perform the sealing before the "hurt" can begin. A beginning reader could see and understand this.

There is not one hint that this is a "parenthetic" anything. Typically, when we use a parenthesis, it is to furthur amplify (expand) what was just said. It would be very unusual to have a parenthetic paragraph here that was to amplify or expand something in chapter 20. Therefore, I think it is just as John wrote it: the next thing he saw after the sealing was this great crowd, giving us the idea that when the time comes for the sealing, the rapture of the church will take place next, or will just have happened. Therefore, after John saw the sealing, and then saw this great crowd in heaven, that is exactly what will happen when the time comes. Since the crowd was already in heaven, it is clear that the rapture must have taken place before the moment that John saw it. Therefore I suspect that the rapture will take place at the 6th seal. As for the 144,000 being "evangelists," that is only a guess, with nothing to back it up.

More ideas, with nothing but smoke to back them up. There is not one word in the description of the white horse that would give any hint that this is the antichrist. In fact, since God Himself colored this horse white, it could not possibly be the antichrist. Next, he rides out about 2000 years too soon to be the antichrist. Next, he does not ride with the other three, but rides alone. These things are backed up by scripture.


Quasar said,

Q: Where do you think the two witnesses of God coming from, in Rev.11? What makes you think God cannot place 144,000 on the earth from heaven as well. I have provided the Scriptural support for it. If you don't believe it, then stop criticizing and give us an idea of where you think they will come from.

Since they do not appear on the scene until just before the seventh seal which contains the seven trumpet judgements. It has been Scripturally proven, the Church has been raptured, so please tell me who converts them to belong to Christ, unless it is Christ Himself, since no one is left on the earth to preach the Gospel to them!

Truthfully, there is no scripture that shows that the two witnesses will come from heaven. That too is a guess, but perhaps a correct one. Certainly God could bring down the 144,000 from heaven. But as I pointed out above, if they were from heaven, they would not need to be sealed! The very fact of the sealing proves that they are from earth, and have physical bodies. In fact, scripture tells us that they come from the 12 tribes. There is no one hint in the scriptures that give us any hint that these 144,000 come from heaven. That is just man's ideas, and not backed up by anything. I disagree that you provided any scriptural support. I think they come from the 12 tribes living on earth right now.

If the rapture takes place at the 6th seal, and I believe it does, then they are sealed just after the rapture. And it is the church that gets them born again. What do you think will happen to the millions that are just "playing church" today? They certainly will not go in the rapture, but when it happens, they will know that they missed it, and some will immediately turn to God will all their heart. These will lead others, and they in turn will lead others. There will be millions that will turn to God during the first 1260 days. And these will undoubtedly be using the media as the church is today. Who knows? Perhaps the gospel will be preached through cell phones by then! Then there will be others that will turn to God in the last 1260 days, as the angels preach the everlasting gospel.

Quasar said

Understand this: I could care less what you think about my views as compared to the distortions you fly by the seat of your pants with, comprende!

I understand people get upset when sacred cows are tipped over. That is human nature. However, you are old enough to know that what you believe must be backed up by scripture, not man's ideas. All I am saying is that in my opinion, your ideas have no scripture behind them. If you think what I have written is a distortion, then lets get the bibles out, and hash things out by scriptures. If I have distorted a scripture, in your opinion, then show it and show why you think what I said is in error, by using other scriptures. That way, we can all learn.

Coop

 

[Vic C.]

Sorry, I did not think anyone would have a problem with answering in color, in a quote... Coop

Like I said Coop:

I don't harass anyone for doing it as long as it's legible and not convoluted.

My main concern is that people often glance over things that are tough to understand. That does the poster an injustice. It benefits both the reader and the poster. That's all.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Re: Thread subject

Saved by U.S. troops, or by Jesus Christ? If you mean the latter, only God knows.

If you really want to know the total number of those rescued after Germany was defeated, and where all the concentration camps were, I'll find the links for you to access the info from on the Internet.

Most historians place the number of them killed as six million.

It was rhetorical. You are right. God only knows. The number of Jews who accepted Jesus Christ moments before stepping into eternity can only be known by God.
I was just wondering if the Apostle John, being a prophet, being able to see into the future ~ all the way to the end times, the last days and the return of the Lord Jesus Christ ~ just might have noticed WWII during his visions.

I was following the thread. End times. Who are the 144,000.

No matter where this group of people came from ~ it is not a very high number.

 

[John the Baptist]

The 144000 are spiritual Jews (Romans 2:28-29) from the last fallen Laodicean True Virgin Fold that now has her seventh candlestick removed (Revelation 2:5 & Revelation 3:16-17 Revelation 3:9) and again Matthew 23:38's repeat! 'Spewed out' ones from whence come the Remnant of Revelation 12:17 ones in replacement, these will be the spectacle to the world, (as a worldwide witness) and then from the world ones come the Revelation 7:9's 'past' blinded ones of Revelation 18:4.

---John

 

[Quasar]

Thread subject

Another thing; stop editing in my quotes as you are violating my rights for presenting my views without being diluted with yours! As a Forums Administrator at another Christian site for six years, that was a violation of our rules! [Vic, and other ads and mods, please take note].

If you are talking about the comments people make in "color" within a quote, I agree. I don't harass anyone for doing it as long as it's legible and not convoluted.

I do wish that all would use the conventional quote style found in most PHP-based BBSs and quote only the text that pertains to 'your' reply.

[quote] text here [/quote]

It just 'looks' better and is not that hard to do... no harder than inserting colored text or >>> <<< into a quote or post. :wink:

Sorry Vic,

I vigorously oppose anyone inserting their own views, and editing what I have posted. That is not done at any site I have posted at before, and was a violatioin of our rules where I served as forums administrator for six years. Legally, it is also a violation of my freedom of speech, because of being censored by someone else. I'm asking you again to put a stop to it.

In short posts where I take portions of another post to discuss issues with, I use the arrows,not only here, but everywhere else quite suitably. If it is a lengthy discussion, I do it differently, using the term, "Quote by ..." and for my own posts, the letter Q:...which is in my opinion far simpler and better understood, than one box inside of another, and another and another.

I have no problem with that, but not when another member distorts my views by inserting their own editing in it!

Think about it, please.

Thanks.

Blessings,

Quasar

 

[Quasar]

Re: Thread subject

Saved by U.S. troops, or by Jesus Christ? If you mean the latter, only God knows.

If you really want to know the total number of those rescued after Germany was defeated, and where all the concentration camps were, I'll find the links for you to access the info from on the Internet.

Most historians place the number of them killed as six million.

It was rhetorical. You are right. God only knows. The number of Jews who accepted Jesus Christ moments before stepping into eternity can only be known by God.
I was just wondering if the Apostle John, being a prophet, being able to see into the future ~ all the way to the end times, the last days and the return of the Lord Jesus Christ ~ just might have noticed WWII during his visions.

I was following the thread. End times. Who are the 144,000.

No matter where this group of people came from ~ it is not a very high number.

Hi G.L.A.,

It is doubtful any of those Jews were saved unless they were converted to Christianity, in which case they would be members of the One Body of Christ, as in 1 Cor.12:12-13.

John was not the prophet, it was Jesus who dictated His Revelation to John through His angel, as seen in Rev.1:1. And is therefore His prophecy about the 144,000 'evangelists,' who Jesus said will be redeemed from the earth, in Rev.14:3, as I have explained in my thread, "who are the 144,000," about them.

Blessings,

Quasar

 

[Quasar]

Thread subject

The 144000 are spiritual Jews (Romans 2:28-29) from the last fallen Laodicean True Virgin Fold that now has her seventh candlestick removed (Revelation 2:5 & Revelation 3:16-17 Revelation 3:9) and again Matthew 23:38's repeat! 'Spewed out' ones from whence come the Remnant of Revelation 12:17 ones in replacement, these will be the spectacle to the world, (as a worldwide witness) and then from the world ones come the Revelation 7:9's 'past' blinded ones of Revelation 18:4.

---John

If they were "spiritual Jews, then please tell me why God had to seal them from being killed by the Antichrist, the false prophet and their cronies? Rev.7:3. Since they were already converted, and belonged to Jesus, they were also already sealed by the Holy Spirit. The seal God will put on their foreheads is to protect them physically, until they have completed their work of preaching the Gospel, in the absence of the raptured Church.

When their work is completed, they are translated into heaven, in Rev.14:1-5.

Your eschatology about them is completely non-Scriptural and you will have to show me how you arrive at it with Scriptural support.

Blessings,

Quasar

 

[John the Baptist]

Re: Thread subject

Another thing; stop editing in my quotes as you are violating my rights for presenting my views without being diluted with yours! As a Forums Administrator at another Christian site for six years, that was a violation of our rules! [Vic, and other ads and mods, please take note].

If you are talking about the comments people make in "color" within a quote, I agree. I don't harass anyone for doing it as long as it's legible and not convoluted.

I do wish that all would use the conventional quote style found in most PHP-based BBSs and quote only the text that pertains to 'your' reply.

[quote] text here [/quote]

It just 'looks' better and is not that hard to do... no harder than inserting colored text or >>> <<< into a quote or post. :wink:

Sorry Vic,

I vigorously oppose anyone inserting their own views, and editing what I have posted. That is not done at any site I have posted at before, and was a violatioin of our rules where I served as forums administrator for six years. Legally, it is also a violation of my freedom of speech, because of being censored by someone else. I'm asking you again to put a stop to it.

In short posts where I take portions of another post to discuss issues with, I use the arrows,not only here, but everywhere else quite suitably. If it is a lengthy discussion, I do it differently, using the term, "Quote by ..." and for my own posts, the letter Q:...which is in my opinion far simpler and better understood, than one box inside of another, and another and another.

I have no problem with that, but not when another member distorts my views by inserting their own editing in it!

Think about it, please.

Thanks.

Blessings,

Quasar

******
John here:
Just a 'thought'? Why not go back to your old job that you seem to come across thinking that you are 'exceedingly' qualified for? (try Isaiah 14:12-14???) And they must love your posting to pieces! And rules?? (and by the way, we do have a spell check here friend, violatioin? :wink

Look, we love our friend Vic! And when one get after him?? They must be an old, old timer, not some new know it all dude! Got that? In other words, if you want to be liked here, ...whatever? perhaps you are not required to send out a private email to the mods (or even to an administrator :o ) as [our rules] state? Oh, I see, again.. as in your high opinion of self appears in your post, huh??

Good grief forum: Look what we have to look forward to as one of the best forums left gets infiltrated with the 'censorship' of speech! All we need is some more 'mods' with this type of restrictive minds. can break rules, but you best do as say!! And being mis-quoted? :wink: All one needs to do is read!! For it happens on an on!

But this is End Times Prophecy! See K.J. 2 Peter 2:10. Well just an 'little bite' anyhow, huh? ".. despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities." (one of our honored administrators :fadein: )

 

[Quasar]

Thread diatribe

J the B writes:

>>>******
John here:
Just a 'thought'? Why not go back to your old job that you seem to come across thinking that you are 'exceedingly' qualified for? (try Isaiah 14:12-14???) And they must love your posting to pieces! And rules?? (and by the way, we do have a spell check here friend, violatioin? )

Look, we love our friend Vic! And when one get after him?? They must be an old, old timer, not some new know it all dude! Got that? In other words, if you want to be liked here, ...whatever? perhaps you are not required to send out a private email to the mods (or even to an administrator ) as [our rules] state? Oh, I see, again.. as in your high opinion of self appears in your post, huh??

Good grief forum: Look what we have to look forward to as one of the best forums left gets infiltrated with the 'censorship' of speech! All we need is some more 'mods' with this type of restrictive minds. can break rules, but you best do as say!! And being mis-quoted? All one needs to do is read!! For it happens on an on!

But this is End Times Prophecy! See K.J. 2 Peter 2:10. Well just an 'little bite' anyhow, huh? ".. despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities." (one of our honored administrators )



Q: Please observe the immature, self righteous attack this person feels he is entitled to lay on another fellow Christian, Vic! Claiming to be one himself.

Thinking I am 'getting after you,' when I am asking you to modify your rules to eliminate the editing of posts by other members.

It is now clear, personal attacks on others, which is against your rules, is being allowed, with proper censorship to those who think they are above it.

His vitriolic diatribe illuminates his character for all others to meadure him by!

Peace,

Quasar

 

[Vic C.]

Considering the age of you two gentlemen, is this conduct becoming of professed mature Christians? No offense, but I see insults being hurled by both parties. What happened to Matthew 5:44 and especially Matthew 5:39? Plus, if we're going by the book, the rules state:

4 - Treat everyone on this board with respect. In other words, "Love your neighbor".
5 - Respect each other's opinions. Address issues, not persons or personalities.
6 - No Bashing of other members. Give other members the respect you would want them to give yourself.
7 - Any personal problems with another member, then deal with it through private messages.
8 - No harassing members via PM. No public posting of PMs.

That's four rules related to proper conduct. Lets keep that in mind folks. Honestly, I don't have time to referee. Sorry. :-?

Now concerning this so-called editing and freedom of speech. I just did a side by side comparison of Coop's post and your original. He left out nothing at all. All of it was there. Every jot and tittle. All he did was interject his thought in between your thoughts. No different than doing this:

Hi friends,

According to the Bible, both Jesus and Paul revealed, all of us who belong to Jesus, His Church, are to be CAUGHT UP [Raptured] to Him in the clouds of the sky, before the Antichrist is revealed who triggers the seven years of tribulation, that Israel has been decreed to go through. The supporting Scripture for that is as follows:

In connection with the Church = Jn.14:1-4 and 28; 1 Thes.4:14-18 and 2 Thes.2:1-8]. In connection with Israel = [Dan.9:27, where the "he" who 'confirms a covenant/treaty' with Israel for one WEEK [7 years] is the Antichrist. And the same "he" who breaks the covenant in the middle of the WEEK, after 3.5 years of peace. 2 Thes.2:3-4 and 8. Also, Mt.24:15 and Rev.6:2, the first of the four horseman of the apocalypse, riding the white horse.

Of course I disagree with your take on the white horse. The white horse and rider are to represent the church, sent out to make disciples of all nations. A careful reader will note that there is not one word in the description of the horse and rider that gives any hint of evil. When one discovers from the context that this horse and rider were sent out very shortly after Jesus rose from the dead, then saying that he is the antichrist thousands of years into the future is silly. Then, when one studies what the next three horsemen accomplish, it is very evident that this is history to us.

It would be much harder to follow if he were to quote the whole post and then post his points. What I just did above is, IMO, the best possible way to quote.

About freedom of speech and "intellectual property"... I challange anyone who says they have the full support of the First Amendment on a semi-public, privately run Message Board. Plus, if you are truely posting with the inspiration of the HS, they're not your words, they belong to God. Even if someone were to quote just a portion of what you posted, your oroginal post is still intact for all to read, so I don't see what the big deal is.

I have an idea, everyone quote the way I did above and at least we all will be consistant.

Deal?

 

[John the Baptist]

Where are the 144000?

---------The 1000 years will start & END for some!---------

It will start when Christ comes for the living righteous & the resurrected dead [Christians] who will all meet Him in the air, And Christ's God Glory + the angels Glory, will kill the rest of the worlds wicked, so that [all] wicked are now D-E-A-D. satan and the evil angels will now again be here on depopulated earth as it was before God created it! The now again in the 'desolate & void bottom/less pit earth', finds his angel followers and himself in a literal 'bound' chain set of circumstances! They are alone with the wicked all being dead. These who will have their resurrection at the ending of the 1000 years.

This 2nd resurrection is at the 1000 years ending! satan will have 1000 years to think over what his evil rebellion has caused! Yet, at the end of the 1000 years, and at this time, the wicked will all be resurrected, ALL OF ETERNITY (for future documentation Nahum 1:9) will see that ALL have come to the point of full eternal uselessness (rebellion) for they come out of the grave the same rebellious way that they went into it! & God will at this time put them out of their misery! This is the penalty stage of their execution, they will suffer according to their deeds! See Eccl. 12:13-14.

These are to ALL be executed in this Second death slaughter, (see Obadiah 1:16) when the New Jerusalem descends at the end of these 1000 years. Their Judgement as to the 'length of suffering' will have been determined during the 1000 years of judgement by the heavenly accurate record books. See Luke 12:47-48. They will ALL be executed at this time. ALONG with Lucifer and his crew of angels, & all of his human evil Desiree's. (compare Gen. 4:7) The earth and the heavens will be cleansed by fire at this time, and then recreated before New Jerusalem sets down. See Eze. 28:18-19 & Obad. 16.
At the present time there are Non/Christians who are alive, OK?
And at the present time we have Christians who are alive also. Again, both are living on earth at this present time.

In the graves we have two class of dead people.
First, and at this present time we will agree to the thought that there are dead Christians in the grave.
And also at this present time there are dead non/Christians who are in the grave.

Lets look at the Masters Word in Jn. 5:28-29. Pay apt attention! (reread & study this verse)
"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in which [all that are in the graves] shall hear His voice. And they shall come forth; (notice No. 1) they that have done good unto the resurrection of life; (notice No. 2) [and] they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." Also take note, that it does not say that they will all come out of their graves at the same time! Only that, they all will be resurrected, to come forth.

Two different time frames for these two different class of people. But remember that [these both] are now at the present time dead, & in the graves.
Now before we touch upon the same two class of the living at the present time, we are going back to Rev. 20 .We find that the 'd'evil is to be bound for 1000 years by a literal set of circumstances. It was exactly like the first history before man was created. But lets again prove that God is consistent!

Most know that 'man' added chapter titles, periods, numbers & chapters divisions to Gods Word. But it is the period & comma, that gives us some trouble in a few verses of Scripture. (they are in the wrong place) Lets test this in Rev. 20 verse 5? Immediately after the binding of satan in verse four, notice verse 5! "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. (OK, 'i' placed a period here as they have done, But we will also place the number 6 here, to start the next verse. And this [new] thought. We will see if this makes more sense?) Verse 6...Blessed AND HOLY [is he that hath part in the first resurrection: (notice) on such the second death hath no power.."

Again the first resurrection brings forth the Blessed and Holy. And the others who are resurrected at the end of the 1000 years will die the second death. (see Rev. 20:14) And as we read in John 5:28-29 the Master promised both the saved & the lost would be resurrected. But not at the same time. But again, remember that this class of people were the ones who had died, both were to be raised from the dead. In other words we are not considering the 'living' yet.

Lets find out what happens to the living on earth when Christ comes again the second time. Remember that there are the Righteous & the wicked alive when He comes.

We will read about the righteous saved ones [first].
"Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not [all] sleep, but we shall all be changed,
(notice 'all' will not sleep on...then it says, but [we] all shall be..) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last [trump:] for the trumpet shall sound, (secret? Hardly!)
and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
And we read in Rev. 20:6.. "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection." And in verse 5 again?? "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished."

So lets try another verse on those who come forth in the first resurrection and we will touch on the living righteous only. (not the living wicked)
Notice the wording, Christ does not want us to be mis/led! or 'ignorant' concerning this 'Word' of His.
"But I would not have you to be ignorant; brethren, concerning them which are asleep, (notice that he knows of these others!) even as others which [have no hope.]...For this we say unto you by the Word of the Lord, (now we see the living righteous come to view) that we which [are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord] shall not prevent them which are asleep. (secret? silent? hardly) For the Lord [himself] shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, [and] with the trump of God: (do you remember when Moses went upon Mt. Sinai? How God spoke, & the whole mountain shook! but notice the next Words) AND [THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST. (did you catch the Words, Word? First, or the first resurrection!) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air.." 1 Thess. 5:13-16

Please note again: We have not touched a verse strictly about what happened to the living wicked! The wicked who died are still dead & will not come forth until after the 1000 years. So, Christ called forth 'first' those of the saved in the first resurrection.

Who is left here for us to consider? When the Master came there were two class of people here on earth. Both the Righteous & the wicked living, what happened to the living wicked?? Lets go to Revelation 6:14-17 to check?

We find that when Christ comes to earth the second time, that the earth will
be de/populated, except for satan & his evil angels.
But we did not use these verses. And it can leave NO DOUBT as to the time being that of the Masters SECOND COMING! Rev. 6:14-17 says:

"And the heaven departed as a scowl when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. (remember who only are here! the wicked dead are still in their grave & all the righteous are to be brought forth together at this same time, at Christ's second coming. Now notice!)
And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondsman, and every free man,
[hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: for THE GREAT DAY OF HIS WRATH IS COME;] AND WHO SHALL BE ABLE TO STAND?"


You will want these last verses to seal this truth in your mind, as for the time frame.
It is clearly seen as that of our Lords Second coming, and the total temporary 1000 year death of all the wicked! The verses are found in 2 Thess. 2:1-9. (you read it all, i will use just its context)

The righteous are being raptured away' (if i can use this term?)
And the wicked dead will not come forth until the end of the 1000 years. And these living wicked are WANTING TO DIE. And they will do so. Now, the earth is as it was before creation. Dark & Void, the home for the evil angels & their master, satan. Chained by a literal set of circumstances until the 1000 years are finished. Then, they will all take part in the second resurrection to be eternally slain! This is called the SECOND DEATH! try Revelation 20:14.

You will want these verses in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-9 to see that it is at the Masters second coming that the rest of the wicked are slain & that all the wicked are now dead, and remain so until the end of the 1000 years. Then they will be resurrected for a very short time to be permanently executed as to the judicial Judgement for their crimes. See 1 Corinthians 6:2-3.

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by [our gathering together unto Him]...And then shall the [wicked be revealed, (pay apt attention) whom the Lord shall consume with the Spirit of His mouth, and SHALL DESTROY WITH THE BRIGHTNESS OF HIS COMING."

---John