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Who are the 144000 in rev 7:4 ?

S

savedbygrace57

Guest
rev 7:

1And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

2And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

3Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

4And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

One clue to who they are is that they are servants of God !

The book was written to the servants of God rev 1:1

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Servants of God are ordinary believers 1 pet 2:16

As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.

rom 6:22

But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

This fact in and of itself eliminates a carnal or fleshly people, for no people of the flesh can be called the servants of God, so I would conclude that these are born again people, those who have been born of the Spirit per Jn 3:


3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

And if one is born of the Spirit of God, not only are they servants of God, but also Sons or Children of God. Now if these 144000 be literal fleshly descendants of Israel outside of Christ, then they are not the Children of God according to ROM 9:

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Then they could not rightly be servants of God either, so these must be spiritual, if indeed servants of the True and Living God !
​
 
Rev 12 shows us that the woman (Israel) will be with child and then provided for in the wilderness for 1260 days, or three and a half years. It's clear that the woman is Israel and Dan 12 affirms that this is the time of the end, when Michael will help his (Daniel's) people.. and that's Israel.

Israel will be born again as a nation and Paul tells us that this is beginning of the Day of the Lord...

But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
 
sealed on their foreheads !



Now these servants are said to be sealed upon their foreheads ! The scripture speaks of sealing in a threefold sense, 1. Protection, 2.Ownership, and 3. It certifies . The servants of God are sealed in this Threefold sense by the Three Persons or Beings in the Triune God, for the Father hath sealed them and so they enjoy His protection throughout their lives before and after conversion, The Son has sealed them with His ownership by redemption, for He bought them with His own precious blood, and He owns them, yes even before their conversion, they have been bought with a price, thats why Jesus said other sheep I have [present tense] that had yet to hear His voice see Jn 10:16.. And last but not least, the Holy Spirit has or will seal them, and He certifies to them that they are the children of God rom 8:

16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Eph 1:


13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

That these 144000 are objects of Christ redeeming work is seen here in chpt 14:

1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

They are said to be redeemed from the earth, and in vs 1 they stood with the Lamb and along with the Father's name written on their foreheads, now if we join the lamb with being redeemed from the earth, we will have a reference to 1 pet 1:


18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

In light of these things in scripture, the 144000 symbolizes or represent all those who have ever been objects of Christ redeeming blood, redeemed unto God rev 5:


9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

This applies to the OT and NT..All were saved by the precious
 
savedbygrace57 said:
rev 7:

1And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

2And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

3Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

4And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

One clue to who they are is that they are servants of God !

The book was written to the servants of God rev 1:1

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Servants of God are ordinary believers 1 pet 2:16

As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.

rom 6:22

But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

This fact in and of itself eliminates a carnal or fleshly people, for no people of the flesh can be called the servants of God, so I would conclude that these are born again people, those who have been born of the Spirit per Jn 3:


3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

And if one is born of the Spirit of God, not only are they servants of God, but also Sons or Children of God. Now if these 144000 be literal fleshly descendants of Israel outside of Christ, then they are not the Children of God according to ROM 9:

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Then they could not rightly be servants of God either, so these must be spiritual, if indeed servants of the True and Living God !
​
Click to expand...
Dear savedbygrace, The 144,000 of Revelation is symbolic of the whole Christian Church on earth and in heaven. It is not a literalistic figure, nor is it confined to Jews only, for whoever believes in Christ, Jew or Gentile, is Abraham's seed in Christ Jesus. In Erie PA Scott
PS No matter how many times you use ad hominem language, any of you, I shall remain calm. I am going to leave this discussion between all of you, and you can, if this is the case with you, engage in your Catholic or Protestant viewpoints. I just differ with both of these views and they're not the only possibility for Christians. God bless all of you; amen.
Goodbye for now. I'll be back sometime soon.
 
Rev 14:4 These are .... the firstfruits unto God and unto the Lamb. Rev 14:15..... the harvest of the earth is ripe. Exo 23:16 and the feast of harvest, the first-fruits of thy labors, which thou sowest in the field: and the feast of ingathering, at the end of the year,when thou gatherest in thy labors out of the field.Mat 13:38 ...the field is the world;
 
Its a metaphor; it honestly could mean nothing other than the meaning one interprets from it as an individual.
 
Symbolical Number -



Why the number 144000 ? Its symbolical, I am going to share some numerology ! The number 3 which indicates the Trinity, the Triune God who is totally responsible for the salvation of His Chosen ones. That salvation was the production of the Trinity is why Jesus told His sent ones to baptize believers in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, because the teaching was to give each Being His due Honor. Thats why Peter began His 1 epistle with all Three Beings indicated 1 pet 1:

1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

All Three Divine Beings were active in the salvation of the Church !

The Gospel that the Apostles were sent to preach comprehended salvation as an act of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, for it was purposed, purchased, and applied by the Triune God.

Then the #4 indicates the entire creation, for the sealed ones, the servants of God come from east, the west, the north and south gen 28:14

And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed. God was here speaking to Jacob , revealing his partaking of the Abrahamic Covenant and the seed would come from him that would be the blessing to all the world..

And so 3 x 4 = 12, so the number is indicative of the Triune God in the Way of Salvation operating in unison. The Triune God saving purpose in the OT is seen by the salvation of the Patriarchs, symbolized by the Twelve Tribes, and then the Salvation of the NT People symbolized by the Twelve Apostles, and to come with a conception of the church in the OT and NT we multiply 12 x 12 which gives us 144..

Now in harmony with this symbolical understanding we read in rev 21, that the Holy City Jerusalem has Twelve Gates and Twelve foundations, and on the Twelve gates were written the names of the Twelve Tribes of the Children of Israel and then on the Twelve foundations were the names of the Twelve Apostles of the Lamb, and the walls are 144 cubits in Height..

Remember this was a vision of the Lambs wife rev 21:

9And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

And this was symbolically given as a city Vs

10And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

And so this great city shown as the Lamb's wife, which had the gates of the Twelve Tribes of Israel and the Twelve apostles for foundations is the Lambs wife, this also proves that the Church was in the OT beginning with the Patriarchs ! Both the OT Saints and the NT Saints make up the Lambs wife, it cannot be plainer than this in the symbolical language..

So, this reveals that the 144000 is symbolical of the whole saved Church of God from all time and everywhere, redeemed from the earth by the blood of the lamb..
​
 
I don't think I agree with the whole #3x#4 thing. First off, The number 144,000 has nothing to do with a concept of the trinity... and second... you seem to have pulled the number 4 out of thin air.


(Revelation 7:4-8) 4*And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel:
5*Out of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand sealed; out of the tribe of Reu′ben twelve thousand; out of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand;
6*out of the tribe of Ash′er twelve thousand; out of the tribe of Naph′ta‧li twelve thousand; out of the tribe of Ma‧nas′seh twelve thousand;
7*out of the tribe of Sim′e‧on twelve thousand; out of the tribe of Le′vi twelve thousand; out of the tribe of Is′sa‧char twelve thousand;
8*out of the tribe of Zeb′u‧lun twelve thousand; out of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand; out of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand sealed.

If it JUST stated the 144,000 number, I'd say it could be figurative... but considering that it specifies "12000 from the tribe of ___" ... seems like it's literally talking about there being 12 groups of 12000 people being used for a special purpose, apart from the "Greater flock which no man is able to number" (the rest of humanity who are given life instead of death).


... taking the 144,000 reference and making it into a supporting argument for a trinity is just... silly.
 
savedbygrace57 said:
mohb:



Says who ?
Click to expand...

i have never heard the 144k as an argument for the trinity and at one time i wasnt a trinitarian.

and being a former jw, they scour the bible of those outside to show where the false christians support the trinity.

that verse isnt one of them.(at least i never heard)
the word godhead in romans is the one they mentioned alot.
 
The 144000 is the Lambs Wife, that follow Him wherever He goes !

Rev 14:

1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

5And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

Notice these characteristics without fault before the Throne ! Is not that said of the Church ? Jude 1:24

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

eph 1:4

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Was not the church to be esoused to Him as chaste virgin ? 2 cor 11:

2For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Is not the church to be the Firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb ?

James 1:18

Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

1 cor 15:20

But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Christ, the Head, makes all them that are His the Firstfruits unto God, because they are chosen in Him eph 1:


4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

These scriptures prove that the 144000 is the Church, the Bride of Christ..​
 
savedbygrace57 said:
The 144000 is the Lambs Wife, that follow Him wherever He goes !

Rev 14:

1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

5And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

Notice these characteristics without fault before the Throne ! Is not that said of the Church ? Jude 1:24

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

eph 1:4

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Was not the church to be esoused to Him as chaste virgin ? 2 cor 11:

2For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Is not the church to be the Firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb ?

James 1:18

Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

1 cor 15:20

But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Christ, the Head, makes all them that are His the Firstfruits unto God, because they are chosen in Him eph 1:


4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

These scriptures prove that the 144000 is the Church, the Bride of Christ..​
Click to expand...

lol, mohrb is jw and you just confirmed his views.
 
More on the 144000 -



Rev 14:

4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

The 144, 000 are the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. Now we must understand that this is still the church, the Lambs wife, for no group can ever be closer to the Lamb than His Wife, for the Two are One eph 5:

30For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

31For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

For they were purchased away from others to be Holy unto the Lord, they had been separated, the firstfruits are for God ! Lets look at ex 23:

19The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring into the house of the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.

This being the case they are set apart from the rest of mankind see James 1:18. The rest of humanity had been seduced by the devil, and have his mark upon their forehead, and they are being fitted for or ripening for destruction od Judgment day. This world is a harvest that contains the children of the kingdom [those separated unto God] and those belonging to this world and the wicked one Matt 13:

30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Now look at the symbolism of the rest of rev 14: 14-16 is the harvest of the wheat, the children of God, the 144000 and vs 17-20 is the harvest of the rest, which belong to the world and satan.
 
Well, I think that I'll stick with what the word of God actually says... that they are Jews from the twelve tribes listed in the Revelation... and these are contrasted to the multitude which could not be numbered..

Matthew 19 tells us that the twelve Apostles (resurrected of course) will sit upon twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel, when the Lord comes again in His glory and then sits upon the throne of His glory..

Many can't handle this truth because they've become wise in their own conceits just as Paul says that they would.. because they ignore the mystery pertaining to Israel.
 
eventide:

Well, I think that I'll stick with what the word of God actually says... that they are Jews from the twelve tribes listed in the Revelation
Click to expand...

Where does the word say in the passage they were ethnic jews ?
 
savedbygrace57 said:
eventide:



Where does the word say in the passage they were ethnic jews ?
Click to expand...

Is there any other kind ?

The chapter lists the twelve tribes for us, and the number from each tribe is listed as well.. 12,000 from each. This numbered people is contrasted to a multitude which could not be numbered.. from every tribe nation and tongue.

It's perfectly clear that these are Israelites from each of the twelve tribes, and we know that will be the case when the Lord comes and sits upon the throne of His glory, as Matthew 19 teaches us.. and His Apostles will also sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of I S R A E L...

It's right there in the bible in plain English. Although again.. Paul warns Christians of the consequence of ignoring the mystery which pertains to Israel, how that they are blinded in part until the fulness of the GENTILES be come in.. those who do ignore this become wise in their own conceits, just as Paul says..

Israel is the only nation on earth which is not GENTILE... and Jerusalem will be trodden down of the GENTILES until the times of the GENTILES be fulfilled... and that is when the kingdoms of this world shall become the kingdoms of our LORD and of His CHRIST.. as Rev 11 tells us.
 
savedbygrace57 said:
eventide:



Are you going to show the scripture that says what you said ?
Click to expand...

Scripture makes no difference to those who trust in the theology of Calvin... because I already have referenced Matthew 19 which shows clearly that when the Lord comes again, and then sits upon the throne of His glory, that his Apostles will also sit upon twelve thrones.. judging the twelve tribes of ISRAEL..

Most Calvinists choose to ignore the mystery pertaining to Israel and so they become wise in their own conceits... because most of them are amillennial like yourself.. and imo.. that's about the largest doctrinal joke out there.
 
even:

Scripture makes no difference to those who trust in the theology of Calvin...
Click to expand...

I did not think you had scripture, you just talking to be talking, sorry, i am not taking your word for nothing..
 
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