Who are the Elect

[Drew]

Drew
You really don't understand that God is sovereign do you?
That God knows the beginning from the end....
That God knew those that would choose him from eternity past....

My post stated that I was addressing those who hold that "God chooses an 'elect' but that the way God chooses the members of the elect is in a manner such that He does not make this choice based on any characteristics of the person". I am directing this post at those who hold such a view - a view that you obviously do not hold, since you talk about people "choosing" God.

''One'' of the problems with open theism is that it takes away Gods sovereignty and this comes from the mind of man who tries and understand the mind of God....

Let's suppose, just for the sake of argument, that God does not know everything about the future. Does this take away His sovereignty.?

It does only if one has a certain conceptualization of sovereignty in mind. I think that many have a very simplistic understanding of sovereignty which requires that God control every event in the Universe. I think that the Scriptures paint a picture of a God that achieves his purposes without such absolute control over every minute event. To achieve His purposes despite giving up such absolute control shows the true majesty of God.

 

[lovely]

Hi Drew,

I was thinking about this today...

If God chooses because of something about us, what would that be?

For example,

Noah was upright in a wicked generation
Abel gave God His most excellent sacrifice, in thankfulness.
Sara counted God as faithful.
David was a man after God's own heart.
and I suppose we could underscore something like this in all God's people throughout Scripture...and even now.

I suppose, as Hebrews 11 sums up for us, the root of all these distinguishing things, is common in believers...faith in Truth. Now, I know we all may differ about choosing God, or Him choosing us, or Him choosing those who choose Him...etc. I want to try to go forward without tightening down the screws on that railing.

I imagine God gives the measure, lest we boast. The thing is that God created each of us...even if we are each an original to some degree. I think we all have various gifts, and strengths...also flaws, and failures. He has even done this for the unbeliever, I say. God does not look at us and say..."What can Tina bring to the table?", but rather "How shall I utilize my creation to accomplish my plan?"

If the Donkey created the buckets, perhaps painted them his favorite colors...or molded them into different shapes...he may have a favorite, or he may have placed them in positions to be utilized best by him, etc....the root of all of this is still traced back to him, isn't it? The buckets do not have some merit of their own. If they are beautiful, or useful, they will still all be used in accordance to His plan, and how He decides to utilize Him in His own pleasing. The buckets do not have to be compared in the least to one another, but only to individually, and even corporately, fulfill God's assigned purpose...this is their only value, and it is only assigned by God. Certainly God has chosen many broken buckets to process and then utilize, so who knows the why, or the for what? It shouldn't matter, because it is all only about God.

I don't know...I am not good with you analogies, Drew. I am sure there is much to pick apart in this, but I think this is how I view what I know of Scripture so far. The Lord bless you.

 

[unred typo]

Drew wrote: My post stated that I was addressing those who hold that "God chooses an 'elect' but that the way God chooses the members of the elect is in a manner such that He does not make this choice based on any characteristics of the person". I am directing this post at those who hold such a view - a view that you obviously do not hold, since you talk about people "choosing" God.

I’m not sure if I fit into this category or not, Drew. When it doesn’t refer to Israel or Christ himself, the ’elect’ refers to those who are ‘in Christ.’ I see the ‘elect’ as a group of unidentified, unknown people who meet specific requirements laid out from the foundation of the world and it is up to each individual to choose to conform to that image. Since God is loving, merciful and just, he judges according to what a man has in ability and opportunity.

I couldn’t get my ‘elect’ into your buckets at all so I suspect my view is irrelevant to your OP. Another problem I have identifying my view with your OP is that I find that those chosen ones in scripture are not even chosen for salvation but for some particular task or occupation, that they may not even be held accountable for in the final analysis.

 

[Drew]

Hi unred:

You are right - I am not really addressing the "donkey" story to your view (as I understand it) but rather to any person who holds the following view: From the foundations of time God chose a sub-set of all humans who will ever live, and pre-destined these people, and only these people, to salvation, with the further proviso that God's choice was not based on anything "about" the person's characteristics". It is this last qualifier that I find problematic for the conceptual reasons I tried to make clear in the post about the donkey.

I think my view about the elect is probably the same as yours, but I am very much in the stage of trying to figure this stuff out - so my views on the elect are indeed "soft" in the sense that they could change radically.

 

[Oscar3]

Drew
are you one for the elect?

 

[Drew]

Drew
are you one for the elect?

I am not sure what the word "elect" really means. I believe that I know one view of what it means and I find that view to be incoherent. In any event, I know that Christ paid the price for my sins and that he is Lord of this universe generally as well as of me personally.

 

[Oscar3]

OK
Let me refraze the question.
Is your name in the lambs book of life?

 

[unred typo]

OK
Let me refraze the question.
Is your name in the lambs book of life?

The question is, have you been blotted out of the book of life? Notice that it is those whose works are not perfect before God that are in danger. You can spin that around to mean the usual ‘belief in Christ’ and not take his words to mean exactly what they say if you want but you do so at your own peril.

Revelations 3:1
And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things says he that has the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know your works, that you have a name that you live, and are dead.

Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found your works perfect before God.

You have a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

He that overcomes, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.