Who are the twelve tribes and where do they dwell?

[4afaithfulone]

To be born from Jewish parents does not make one a Jew nor a people of God!
If that were not so, then Esau (twin of Jacob), whom God hated, would be considered righteous with his brother Jacob and Jewish for they were both born from Jewish parents in the natural.
Cain was not of the same Spirit as his righteous brother Abel, neither was Ishmael born of the same Spirit as his brother, the promised son Isaac. Ishmael was born by the will of man, Isaac by the promise and will of God.
Abraham was not called a Jew until after he came to know God as LORD of his life and began to walk the way He told him to walk, to seek his "Promised" land. He had to separate him self from the carnal house of his natural father to follow the Spirit of God. One of peace can not have strife, anger, sin, hatred around them and in their lives or there is no peace. So even Abraham had to separate himself from Lot.
Gods people are not those led of their carnal flesh, rather born from natural Jewish parents or not born of natural Jewish parents. For those born of flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God nor see it, but only those led by His Spirit born from above. It is the Spirit, that resides in a man’s bloodline, that determines if they are born of the heavenly Jerusalem or of the flesh as a natural Jew born in earthly Jerusalem. God already knew the spirit of Esau, before he was even born.
For it is only by the Spirit that one can say “Jesus is Lord” demonstrated by their actions and words. They are those who love the Word, honor the Word and obey the Word who are the children of God, all others are of their father the devil as Cain was, Esau was Ishmael, And as we Were before we accepted Christ to be reborn of the Spirit.
For all who are led by their carnal nature, which these 3 men (Cain, Esau, Ishmael) represent, are those who live for the desires of their flesh and not the things of God.
The twelve tribes are of the 12 sons of Jacob/Israel who are the 144,000 holy ones and God knows exactly where they are and who they are. They will be spiritual Jews whom God has chosen from among men of all nations where they have been exiled( Jew, Gentile, Male of Female) whom are of the SEED(Jesus) of Abraham, who have been made holy by their sincere heart for God to be found worthy.
These, once saved by Jesus‘ sacrifice, did not just stand their, but moved forward desiring a new way of life, having the Spirit and Word to guide and raise them up. The 12 sons of Jacob/Israel in the natural, were not all from Jewish mother’s, but of Jew and Gentile mothers as are these who will marry the bride(heavenly Jerusalem) and rule and reign with Christ as his holy body. There is no gender in the spirit, only in the flesh for reproductive purposes.
They are born from Rachael(the younger), whom Jacob/Israel loved, and the rest were from Leah(the elder) who was tender in the eye, meaning she did not have spiritual eyes to see, they were a little weak. The rest were of Gentile(Egyptian) mothers.
This represents that they are Jew and Gentile, with Benjamin and Joseph being the Jews in Christ (born of Rachel, the One loved or old Israel/Jacob, and the others are the Gentiles in Christ.
They will be those who inherit the bride heavenly Jerusalem, the only ones to learn the song, the virgins who follow Christ wherever he(obeys everywhere they go) goes. These are the virgins that the bridegroom comes for, not as in his bride, but as his own holy body members, and they must be Exactly as he is as one looking in a mirror and seeing himself. Many will say Lord, Lord…. But he will not know them as part of his holy body
Isa 62:4 Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzi-bah, and thy land Beulah: for the LORD delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married.

5 For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.

KJV

Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

KJV

Rev 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

KJV

Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

KJV

 

[Deborah13]

To be born from Jewish parents does not make one a Jew nor a people of God!
If that were not so, then Esau (twin of Jacob), whom God hated, would be considered righteous with his brother Jacob and Jewish for they were both born from Jewish parents in the natural.
Cain was not of the same Spirit as his righteous brother Abel, neither was Ishmael born of the same Spirit as his brother, the promised son Isaac. Ishmael was born by the will of man, Isaac by the promise and will of God.
Abraham was not called a Jew until after he came to know God as LORD of his life and began to walk the way He told him to walk, to seek his "Promised" land. He had to separate him self from the carnal house of his natural father to follow the Spirit of God. One of peace can not have strife, anger, sin, hatred around them and in their lives or there is no peace. So even Abraham had to separate himself from Lot.
Gods people are not those led of their carnal flesh, rather born from natural Jewish parents or not born of natural Jewish parents. For those born of flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God nor see it, but only those led by His Spirit born from above. It is the Spirit, that resides in a man’s bloodline, that determines if they are born of the heavenly Jerusalem or of the flesh as a natural Jew born in earthly Jerusalem. God already knew the spirit of Esau, before he was even born.
For it is only by the Spirit that one can say “Jesus is Lord” demonstrated by their actions and words. They are those who love the Word, honor the Word and obey the Word who are the children of God, all others are of their father the devil as Cain was, Esau was Ishmael, And as we Were before we accepted Christ to be reborn of the Spirit.
For all who are led by their carnal nature, which these 3 men (Cain, Esau, Ishmael) represent, are those who live for the desires of their flesh and not the things of God.
The twelve tribes are of the 12 sons of Jacob/Israel who are the 144,000 holy ones and God knows exactly where they are and who they are. They will be spiritual Jews whom God has chosen from among men of all nations where they have been exiled( Jew, Gentile, Male of Female) whom are of the SEED(Jesus) of Abraham, who have been made holy by their sincere heart for God to be found worthy.
These, once saved by Jesus‘ sacrifice, did not just stand their, but moved forward desiring a new way of life, having the Spirit and Word to guide and raise them up. The 12 sons of Jacob/Israel in the natural, were not all from Jewish mother’s, but of Jew and Gentile mothers as are these who will marry the bride(heavenly Jerusalem) and rule and reign with Christ as his holy body. There is no gender in the spirit, only in the flesh for reproductive purposes.
They are born from Rachael(the younger), whom Jacob/Israel loved, and the rest were from Leah(the elder) who was tender in the eye, meaning she did not have spiritual eyes to see, they were a little weak. The rest were of Gentile(Egyptian) mothers.
This represents that they are Jew and Gentile, with Benjamin and Joseph being the Jews in Christ (born of Rachel, the One loved or old Israel/Jacob, and the others are the Gentiles in Christ.
They will be those who inherit the bride heavenly Jerusalem, the only ones to learn the song, the virgins who follow Christ wherever he(obeys everywhere they go) goes. These are the virgins that the bridegroom comes for, not as in his bride, but as his own holy body members, and they must be Exactly as he is as one looking in a mirror and seeing himself. Many will say Lord, Lord…. But he will not know them as part of his holy body
Isa 62:4 Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzi-bah, and thy land Beulah: for the LORD delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married.

5 For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.

KJV

Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

KJV

Rev 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

KJV

Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

KJV

Please consider these thoughts. This is my understanding, please feel free to comment.
Abraham was never a Jew, he was a Hebrew.
The children of Israel were not Jews but Israelites of both Hebrew and other backgrounds that became proselytes to the Mosaic Covenant and full members in the nation.
After entering the land, the land was divided. The northern nations (10) were Israel. The two southern, Judah.
When God divorced Israel and 'put her away' there was only Judah left. These are the ones called Jews in the NT.

 

[4afaithfulone]

Please consider these thoughts. This is my understanding, please feel free to comment.
Abraham was never a Jew, he was a Hebrew.
The children of Israel were not Jews but Israelites of both Hebrew and other backgrounds that became proselytes to the Mosaic Covenant and full members in the nation.
After entering the land, the land was divided. The northern nations (10) were Israel. The two southern, Judah.
When God divorced Israel and 'put her away' there was only Judah left. These are the ones called Jews in the NT.

Thank you for your response Deborah13,

I believe Abraham was actually a Chaldean from Ur before God called him though,right. So there were no such persons called Jews or Hebrews or Israelites until after Abraham begin to be called by the LORD. God made Abraham great and the father of many nations, that is why Abraham is called "He"-brews for it was the LORD who did it, not Abraham. I believe that Joseph represents Jesus, David, the tribe of Judah and Benjamin are the believing born again Jews. I don't believe in pure natural bloodlines any longer. Because of persecutions of the Jews throughout history and in Hitler's time, the Jews hid their names, and identities and married Gentiles, thereby mingling their seed/bloodline and hiding their last names so as not to be discovered. God's knows where and who these are and they are scattered among the nations. That is why Esther(new covenant Israel's) root were hidden. And even we may be a natural Jew even when we don't know it. Israel will always exist, but to restore something, may mean to use parts of another to make it whole again.
Here is why I believe that Benjamin is the tribe of believing Jews and Joseph represents Jesus, Joshua, David.
This is Paul in Phi. speaking:
Phil 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
KJV
Here is Joseph, Jesus, Joshua, David:
Gen 45:21 And the children of Israel did so: and Joseph gave them wagons, according to the commandment of Pharaoh, and gave them provision for the way.
22 To all of them he gave each man changes of raiment; but to Benjamin he gave three hundred pieces of silver, and five changes of raiment.
KJV

Here are some of the types of Jesus:
Joseph was loved by his father/Father who made him a coat of many colors.... made him King over many nations. Joshua was the one who believed God and led them to their promised land as Jesus is doing for us. David was the Lion of the tribe of Judah.
Not to leave out Melchezidec King of Salem, King of Peace with the bread and the wine, who Blessed Abraham.
Blessing to you!

 

[Deborah13]

Thank you for your response Deborah13,

I believe Abraham was actually a Chaldean from Ur before God called him though,right. So there were no such persons called Jews or Hebrews or Israelites until after Abraham begin to be called by the LORD. God made Abraham great and the father of many nations, that is why Abraham is called "He"-brews for it was the LORD who did it, not Abraham.

Hmm...the word Hebrew in Hebrew has a meaning. The easiest way to explain it being Ivri - ever, but in the end means 'passed over' as in a person who passes over to the other side of a river. A person even in opposition to the side they left. Which describes Abraham perfectly.
He left the Chaldeans who were idol worshipers and passed over into Canaan.
The word Jew, is different it is Yehudi and comes from the word Judah or Yehudah.
"The commentaries explain that the name Yehudah shares the same root as the Hebrew word hoda'ah, which means acknowledgement or submission. One who acknowledges G‑d's existence and submits to His authority--to the extent that he is willing to sacrifice his life for the sanctification of His name--he is called a Yehudi."
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/640221/jewish/What-is-the-Meaning-of-the-Name-Jew.htm
Paul said,
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is so outwardly, neither is circumcision that which is outward in flesh;
Rom 2:29 but a Jew is he who is so inwardly, and circumcision is of the heart, in spirit, not in letter, of which the praise is not of men, but of God.
No wonder he got in trouble with the natural Jews who had not received their Messiah. He was telling them that a uncircumcised Gentile could be a 'Yehudi.

 

[4afaithfulone]

Hmm...the word Hebrew in Hebrew has a meaning. The easiest way to explain it being Ivri - ever, but in the end means 'passed over' as in a person who passes over to the other side of a river. A person even in opposition to the side they left. Which describes Abraham perfectly.
He left the Chaldeans who were idol worshipers and passed over into Canaan.
The word Jew, is different it is Yehudi and comes from the word Judah or Yehudah.
"The commentaries explain that the name Yehudah shares the same root as the Hebrew word hoda'ah, which means acknowledgement or submission. One who acknowledges G‑d's existence and submits to His authority--to the extent that he is willing to sacrifice his life for the sanctification of His name--he is called a Yehudi."
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/640221/jewish/What-is-the-Meaning-of-the-Name-Jew.htm
Paul said,
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is so outwardly, neither is circumcision that which is outward in flesh;
Rom 2:29 but a Jew is he who is so inwardly, and circumcision is of the heart, in spirit, not in letter, of which the praise is not of men, but of God.
No wonder he got in trouble with the natural Jews who had not received their Messiah. He was telling them that a uncircumcised Gentile could be a 'Yehudi.

Deborah13,
Sorry, I didn't mean it was the Hebrew meaning, It was a play on words, like Son of Nun/None, Or like the land of Nod/Asleep .

Yes, I understand that Hebrew means to Cross(get it The cross) over from death without God, unto life in Christ the living Word, unto the living God, made alive.
For God forms us, He-Brews us with His Word and Spirit.
True about circumcision, that it is only by allowing the Word/the Seed of God, to come in and penetrate our hearts(plant God's Seed) which is His Son The Word whom became flesh, that we can be born from above as a child of God. Those who only depend on their flesh(ly circumcision) can not receive of the things of God to new life, for they are spiritually discerned they can read what it says, but have no helper to guide them into living out the Truth.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
KJV

1 Cor 2:13-16
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
KJV

 

[Deborah13]

Gotcha'

 

[tim-from-pa]

Please consider these thoughts. This is my understanding, please feel free to comment.
Abraham was never a Jew, he was a Hebrew.
The children of Israel were not Jews but Israelites of both Hebrew and other backgrounds that became proselytes to the Mosaic Covenant and full members in the nation.
After entering the land, the land was divided. The northern nations (10) were Israel. The two southern, Judah.
When God divorced Israel and 'put her away' there was only Judah left. These are the ones called Jews in the NT.

This is correct. Which is why I embrace "lost tribes" teaching as what you said is both a historical and genealogical fact. The bible makes it quite plain that there was the "house of Israel" and the "house of Judah" (some of which became the Jews upon return from captivity) as spoken by the prophets, and had it's origins in Genesis 48-49. Each had their own appointed destiny. Most of the biblical prophecy is to Israel, not Judah, the Jews, which is why nobody can agree on prophecy when they apply it to the wrong people. In addition, no serious historian denies Israel never, ever returned to the land, but were "lost" to history (but not to God). Yet, they are included in the end time prophecies very clearly, and even in Revelation. Therefore, between their captivity and end times they must exist as a people somewhere.

The issue is in the meantime where do we all think they ended up? Everyone has their theories, and that's where the controversies begin. I just like to go by the biblical descriptions and prophecies as to where they are located and what would happen to them. But the bible is a coded book "here a little there a little" and "line upon line" where all the facts are a jig-saw puzzle that must be put back together. When they are put together, I think a clearer, larger picture emerges.

 

[n2thelight]

The House of Israel and The House of Judah
It is very important for every student of prophecy, in fact, it is absolutely necessary for their understanding, to see the distinction the Bible makes between the Jews and the other Tribes of Israel. The Bible Distinction Between"The House of Israel"and"The House of Judah"

Today there is much teaching on the subject of prophecy, and it is important that there should be. It is very important for every student of prophecy, in fact, it is absolutely necessary for their understanding, to see the distinction the Bible makes between the Jews and the other Tribes of Israel. Until this distinction between the two Houses, Israel and Judah, as that distinction is taught in the Scriptures, is clearly understood, a great portion of the Bible will remain a closed book. This clear distinction between the two Houses is never lost sight of in the Bible, and until it is understood, it is impossible to follow the truth of Scripture on this subject, or to understand the Bible story of Israel. If we had time we could show you that ignorance of this distinction is responsible for much of the infidelity today. Because the pre-millennial promises God made to the "House of Israel" have not been fulfilled to the "House of Judah," they have accused God of unfaithfulness.

Thousands of Christians use the terms "Israel," and "Jew," "The House of Israel," "The House of Judah," employing these and similar words and phrases as if they always referred to the same people. They do not know that according to Biblical history, there were no "Jews" known as such until about 15 centuries after Abraham was born, and until 600 years after the death of Moses.

Most Hebrews Not Jews

B eginning with Adam, we have the start, not only of chronology, but of the genealogical tables of the Bible. There are ten generations from Adam to Noah, and ten generations from Shem (Noah’s son) to Abraham. Eber or Heber was the fourth in generation from Shem. All of the descendants of Heber were Hebrews. Abraham was six generations later. He, therefore, was a Hebrew. The Hebrews were not Jews, because Judah, from whom the Jews descended, was not yet born. When the time came that there were Jews on the earth, of course, they also were Hebrews - a very small portion of them - but the great mass of Hebrews were not Jews, and are not today. Let us closely follow the facts.

"Abraham had eight sons. One son was Ishmael whose mother was Hagar. One son was Isaac, whose mother was Sarah. After Sarah’s death, Abraham married Keturah, and she bore unto him six sons. Abraham, being a Hebrew, or descendant of Heber, his descendants would of course be Hebrews, and their descendants would also be Hebrews, but their descendants are not Jews. If they are, then Ishmael, that would make the Arabs Jews. The descendants of Keturah’s six sons became the Brahmins of India. It would be foolish to declare that they are Jews, although as the descendants of Abraham, they are of the stock of Heber, and therefore Hebrews. The same reasoning applies to Isaac, Isaac was a Hebrew, the son of Abraham. Now Isaac had two sons, Esau and Jacob. If Isaac was a Jew, then both Esau and Jacob would be Jews. This would make the descendants of Esau also Jews, but the descendants of Esau became the Edomites, later the Turks; also the Pharoahs of the oppression were of the Esau line, but none of these people are Jews."

To call Abraham a Jew would make him a descendant of Isaac’s yet unborn grandson Judah. The Tribe of Judah had no existence on earth during the time of Abraham and Isaac. If Isaac was a Jew, then surely his twin sons, Jacob and Esau would be Jews. We all know that Esau, Jacob’s twin brother, became the progenitor of the Turks, as they are known today. If Jacob was a Jew, how could it be that his twin brother would not be, since they were both born of the same father and mother?

Descendants Do Not Name Their Ancestors

J acob, one of these twin brothers had 12 sons, which came from four different mothers. None of these 12 sons were Jews. One of his 12 sons was Judah, but in the sense in which we use the word "Jew" today, the term cannot be applied to Judah, for "he was not a Jew," because of the fact that they whom we call Jews today have certain characteristics and are racially a type that came into existence hundreds of years after Israel left Egypt. This racial type or remnant we know as the Jews is only a small portion of the descendants of Judah, who was only one of the 12 sons of Jacob. There are no Jews among any of the descendants of Jacob’s other 11 sons. Now Judah had three sons. "The descendants of one son, Zarah, peopled the shores of the Mediterranean, leaving Egypt before the exodus of the children of Israel." Pharez, the twin brother of Zarah, became the progenitor of the tribe of Judah. The tribe of Judah descending from Pharez was divided by the Lord into two Houses - the "House of David" and the "House of Judah."

Abraham was the father of Isaac; Isaac was the father of Jacob; Jacob, who was later named "Israel," became the father of Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Dan, Naphthali, Gad, Asher, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph and Benjamin. The 12 sons each became the head of a Tribe called after his own personal name. From Judah, the fourth son of Jacob, are descended the Jews; the word "Jew" being simply an abbreviation of the name "Judah." A glance at the geneology will show that it is impossible for Abraham, or Isaac, or Jacob, to have been Jews. Only the descendants of Judah - those coming after him, could be called by his name - not his ancestors. No one had ever been named "Judah" until more than 200 years after Abraham was named. Suppose your parents gave you the name of Charles. That does not name your ancestors, who lived two hundred years before you, Charles. And naming Jacob’s fourth son Judah would not make Abraham, his great grandfather, a Jew.

Israel and Judah Separate Nations

The 12 Tribes of Israel became two nations, with widely different destinies, until the time when they will be united in the coming age. (Ezek. 37:22) The distinction or separation between Judah and Israel was foreshadowed at an early date. We read in Psalm 114:1, 2 "When Israel went out of Egypt...Judah was His sanctuary and Israel His dominion." In Samuel’s day, the two Houses, Judah and Israel, were numbered separately. In I Samuel 11:8 we read "And when he numbered them in Bezek, the children of Israel were three hundred thousands and the men of Judah thirty thousand." Notice that even at this early date, Israel numbered ten times more than Judah. The Numerical contrast today is very much greater. The Bible tells us that the Jews would be "few in number," but it tells us that Israel would be as the sands of the sea for multitudes (Hosea 1:10). The Scriptures tell us that David reigned seven years over Judah before he was made King over Israel. If Judah and Israel are the same, how could David be king for seven years over Judah before he was made King over Israel? Until the year 975 B.C. the descendants of Jacob formed one nation. But they are spoken of as "the two families which the Lord hath chosen" (Jer. 33:24).

In the year 975 B.C. at the death of King Solomon, the nation was divided into two nations. In I Samuel 18:16 the expression "All Israel" is used, when Judah is excluded. I will quote you this passage: "But all Israel and Judah loved David, because he went out and came in before them." In II Chronicles 10:12-14 we are told that when Solomon died, and his son Rehoboam came to the throne, the ten tribes rebelled, and under Jereboam, formed the NORTHERN NATION; while Judah, along with Benjamin and certain Levites, formed the SOUTHERN NATION.

The NORTHERN NATION, which consisted of the Ten Tribes, was known under the following national titles: Israel, Ephraim, Isaac, Samaria, The House of Israel, The House of Judah and The Ten Tribes.

 

[n2thelight]

Continued
THE DIVISION WAS OF GOD
The SOUTHERN NATION, which consisted of the two tribes of Judah and Benjamin, was known as "Judah," "The House of Judah" or "The Jews." The capital of the SOUTHERN NATION was Jerusalem. If I had more time, I would quote you the Scriptures which show that this division of the Tribes of Israel into two nations was Divinely Predetermined, Divinely Predicted, Divinely Emphasized, Divinely Maintained, Divinely Accomplished, Divinely Explained, Divinely Approved. The Scriptures show that this division into Two Kingdoms had behind it and controlling it, the fore-ordaining eternal councils of God; and it took place for great, beneficent, well-defined and Divine reasons.

In Jeremiah the 3rd chapter, Israel is five times called "Backsliding Israel," a term never once applied to Judah, and Judah is four times called "Treacherous Judah," a term not once applied to Israel. I will read you this passage: "And I saw, when for all the causes whereby BACKSLIDING Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also." (Jer. 3:8) Ask those who declare that Israel and Judah are the same people to read that passage, analyzing it in the light of their belief. And there are many such passages showing the clear distinction between Israel and Judah. There are more than 2000 references to Israel in the Bible that have no reference whatever to the Jews. On the other hand, there are more than five hundred references to Judah that have no reference to Israel, and yet there are those continually trying to tell us there is no distinction between Israel and Judah, and continually refer to Israel as Jews, and even change the name of Judah to Israel. It is absurd as to use the words America and England interchangeably.

Here is another quotation for them to explain: "Backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah." Make Israel and Judah one and the same people referred to, and the statement becomes ridiculous. Many today are evidently unacquainted with the fact that, according to Biblical history, there was not a single "Jew" known as such upon the face of the earth earlier than 600 years after the death of Moses, or about 1500 years after Abraham was born. There were, of course, Hebrews and Israelites long before that time; Abraham and Isaac were Hebrews; but they were neither Israelites nor Jews. The 12 sons of Jacob were Hebrews and Israelites, but they were not Jews. The same may be said of Moses and Aaron, of the people of the Northern Kingdom, of Elijah and Elisha. To avoid confusion over the expression "Israel" it is necessary to determine in which sense it is used in any particular passage, whether it means: (1) "The whole of the Twelve Tribes; (2) Or the House of Judah alone as being a part of the Twelve Tribes; (3) Or the Ten-Tribed Kingdom."
Ten Tribed Israel Never Called Jews

Nothing can be more unscriptural than to call all Israelites "Jews;" it is as absurd as calling all Americans Californians. Most of Israelites are not Jews because they are the descendants of the other tribes of Israel. There is just as much reason for calling all Israelites "Danites" or "Gadites" or "Ephramites" as there is for calling them Judahites or "Jews." It is just as reasonable to call all "Jews" "Danites" as it is to call all "Danites" "Jews." The term Jew is never used until more than a thousand years after Abraham. It appears for the first time in II Kings 16:6, where we are told that the King of Israel, together with the King of Assyria, made war against the King of Judah. Now since in this passage Israel, one Kingdom, made ware against the Jews, another Kingdom, how can they both be the Jews? The Scriptures never once refer to the Ten-Tribed House of Israel as "The Jews;" neither past, present, nor future. The term "The Jews" is never, in God’s Word, applied to the 12 Tribes, collectively, or to the Ten-Tribed House of Israel.

B ishop J. A. Allen of California, speaking of this modern confusion which we are discussing writes: "For ecclesiastical writers to ignore the national and racial representative Israelitish names of Joseph, Ephraim, and Samaria (The name of Israel’s former capital city, as used in history and prophecy, and to substitute "The Jews" either as a name or as a people, calling them the sole representatives of Israel’s race, is not only the height of ignorance, but THE GREAT ECCLESIASTICAL CRIME OF THE AGES. Truly an enemy hath done this."
In Jeremiah 13:11, nearly 400 years after the tribes were divided by God into the two kingdoms, "The Whole House of Israel" and "The Whole House of Judah" are both spoken of in the same verse, proving that neither House without the other constitutes all of the Lord’s chosen people. "The Whole House of Judah" are not all of the Lord’s people, and "The Whole House of Israel" are not all of the Lord’s people. It takes "The Whole House of Israel" together with "The Whole House of Judah" to make all of God’s chosen people; and comparatively few of these are Jews. This text proves conclusively that there is a people called the "Whole House of Israel" of which the "Whole House of Judah" is regarded as neither part nor parcel. The Holy Spirit has never either in Biblical history or prophecy, called the 10 Tribed House of Israel "Jews". They have never been called "Jews" except by uninformed and unscriptural teachers.

Birthright People Are Not Jews

The fact that Jacob’s two wives, Leah and Rachel, are spoken of as "building the House of Israel," of necessity divides the immediate household of Jacob into "two families." In Jeremiah 33:24 they are spoken of as "the two families which the Lord hath chosen." The Covenant promise of the BIRTHRIGHT was given to one of these families, and that of the SCEPTRE to the other family. Rachel was to be the mother of "thousands of millions" while Leah was to be the mother of royalty. Genesis 49:10 shows us that Judah represents the SCEPTRE family; and I Chronicles 5:2 tells us "THE BIRTHRIGHT is Joseph’s." Never try to apply a BIRTHRIGHT blessing to the Jews. Judah and the Jews were excluded from the BIRTHRIGHT promises, Joseph from the SCEPTRE. The BIRTHRIGHT people are not, and are never in the Scriptures called Jews.

In Ezekiel the 37th chapter we are told that "the two sticks" which are still separate, but which are yet to be reunited, represent Judah on the one hand, and Joseph and the "House of Israel" on the other. One of these sticks represents the SCEPTRE people and the other the BIRTHRIGHT people. Judah, the inheritor of the SCEPTRE, is only a half bother to Joseph, the inheritor of the BIRTHRIGHT. The SCEPTRE and the BIRTHRIGHT inheritors are "two-families" with different mothers. How could the distinction between the SCEPTRE and the BIRTHRIGHT families Judah and Israel be more emphatic?

Israel Distinct From Judah

Unless we see the distinction between the "House of Israel" and the "House of Judah" from the time of the division till the final and glorious reunion of the Two Houses, which will take place at the end of the "latter days," the prophecies concerning Israel cannot be understood. From the time of the division into two kingdoms until now, Judah and Israel have remained absolutely distinct. They were carried into captivity separately, at different times and by different nations, because Israel was taken into captivity by the Assyrians, 721 B.C. (II Kings 17:6); while Judah was carried into captivity 133 years later by the Babylonians 588 B.C. (II Kings 25:21). A portion of Judah returned after 70 years, as had been predicted (Ezra 2:1), but Israel never returned, nor was there any prediction that she would return until the final, glorious, restoration in the near future. All the prophecies were written after the division of the tribes into two nations; and these prophecies give the whole future of Israel as entirely distinct from Judah.

 

[n2thelight]

Continued

The prophets write of Israel and Judah still being separate people in "the latter days," or the days of the Gospel dispensation. In the 37th chapter of Ezekiel is a prophecy yet to be fulfilled. God promising to unite the stick of Joseph, representing the House of Israel with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick in His hand. This and many other Scriptures require that Israel and Judah be kept separate until this union which has not yet taken place.

According to the prophet Hosea, the House of Israel in the last days was to become as the sands of the sea for number, before their reunion with the House of Judah, and their return, representatively, to Palestine (Hosea 1:10, 11). Also Jeremiah writes: "When ye be multiplied and increased in the land in those days...the House of Judah shall walk with the House of Israel and they shall come together out of the land of the north, to the land that I gave for an inheritance unto your Fathers" (Jer. 3:16-18).

In Jeremiah 30:3, 4 we have a prophecy yet to be fulfilled concerning the uniting of the two Houses. Here we read: "For the days come, saith the Lord, that I will bring again the captivity of MY PEOPLE Israel and Judah; and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers and they shall possess it. And these are the words that the Lord spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah." Here God calls Israel and Judah "My People Israel and Judah." So if Judah, the Jews, are the people of the Lord, then the Lord has a people besides the Jews whom He calls Israel and who are not counted among the Jews.

Long before the division took place, Moses, while prophesying unto the seed of Jacob, cried out: "Hear, Lord, the voice of Judah and bring him unto his people: (Deut. 33:7). This plainly shows that Judah was to be separated from his people and finally brought back to them. And the Scriptures tell us that shall not be until at the end of "the last days."

The book of Micah plainly teaches that the Jews who "halted" were to become "A remnant," while Israel "that was cast far off," was to become "a strong nation" (Micah 4:7). The bringing together of these "two families" is to be associated with the Kingdom-Age. Till then, they would be separate. Some errors are slow in dying but this amalgamation-assumption which falsifies hundreds of Scriptures is now only lingering upon its death bed.
It is important to notice that neither the Major nor the Minor Prophets appear in the Old Testament until about 200 years after the division of the Twelve Tribes into two nations. What then did they find was the condition of God’s chosen race? Was there any sign of amalgamation among them? Not a scintilla. The prophets found them still divided into two nations; as separate as France and Italy, or Britain and America. They had separate Kings, separate administrations, separate national alliances, and of course, separate national titles. The National title of the Ten Tribes was "Israel," or "Ephraim," because the Tribe of Ephraim had become the Tribe of the Birthright owing to the sin of Reuben. We have seen that the national title of the other two tribes was "Judah," a remnant of which were later called "The Jews."

It was during this state of affairs that the prophets commenced their ministry - some residing in the territory of Israel, and others in that of Judah. The Prophets addressed these two nations by the names that God gave them - "Israel" being the title which the Northern Nation had decided to retain; and "Judah" being the title which the Southern Nation had decided to assume . Hence we find that all through their writings, whether of warning, of rebuking, or directing, or consoling; and whether their words were historical or prophetical, the prophets recognized the separate condition of the Two Nations, and accordingly addressed them by their chosen and well-known national titles.

Ten Tribed Israel a Non-Jewish People

The separation into the Two Nations took place many years before any of the major or minor prophets wrote; therefore, the "Israel" known to Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, the minor prophets, our Lord, the evangelists, and the apostles, had no Tribe of Judah in it. Israel, as known to all of these writers, was a non-Jewish people. Israel has remained a non-Jewish people to this day. The amalgamation theory is hopelessly discredited in the presence of the Bible. The closing books of Bible history leave Israel and Judah in separation from each other, while Bible prophecy keeps them separated until reconciled and united in the Kingdom-Age, and are dwelling representatively in the Holy Land under the personal reign of the Lord Jesus Christ, their welcomed and Crowned Messiah.
Hosea’s statement that Israel shall be "as the sand of the sea which cannot be measured nor numbered" is not made concerning Judah (Hosea 1:10). In the first chapter we read "Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel." Did the two nations of captives "gather together" and amalgamate while in the land of their captivities? Did they "together appoint themselves one head" when the small remnant of Judah returned from Babylon? Both Ezra and Nehemiah, who were the historians of the Babylonian return, inform us that this was not the case.

That this uniting of Judah and Israel did not take place when the remnant of Judah returned after the Babylonian captivity, is clearly proved by Jeremiah’s prophecy in the third chapter where we are told that "The House of Judah shall walk with the House of Israel and they shall "come together out of the land of the North to the land that I have given for an inheritance unto your fathers" (Jer. 3:18). Nothing like this has yet taken place. The 17th verse of this chapter shows us that when Israel and Judah unite, Jerusalem will be so fully under Divine truth and influence that she will be called "The Throne of Jehovah." This shows us that this uniting of the Two Houses has not yet taken place, and when it does it will not be a Jewish Nation. It will be the Israel Nation. __________________

 

[n2thelight]

Continued

Of this reunion of Israel and Judah, Jeremiah in the 50th chapter and 4th verse says, "In those days, and in that time, saith the Lord, the children of Israel shall come, they and the children of Judah together: They shall go on their way weeping, and shall seek the Lord their God." It was not in "the former days" but at the end of "the latter days" [after the "seven times" or 2520 years punishment of both Houses has run out] that this is prophesied to take place; and if Israel is already amalgamated with Judah - this and other prophecies can never be fulfilled. Jeremiah goes on to say in the 20th verse, "In those days, and in that time, saith the Lord, the iniquity of Israel shall be sought for, and there shall be none; and the sins of Judah, and they shall not be found; for I will pardon them whom I leave as a remnant." We all know that such a return and union of Israel and Judah has never yet taken place.

Ezra, in the 2nd chapter and the 1st verse, shows us that those who returned to Jerusalem were all from one "province." This word is in the singular. This is proof that the House of Israel who were captive not in this "province," but in another country, did not return.

In the book of Ezra, which mentions the two tribes that returned, none of the Ten Tribes were listed. And in the book of Nehemiah, which says that only Judah and Benjamin returned, none of the ten tribes are mentioned.

In Zechariah the 10th chapter, which was written 18 years after the Jews had returned from Babylon, the prophet shows that when he wrote, the Two Houses of Israel and Judah were still separate. And then all His prophecies concerning Israel require that they shall be kept separate from Judah as a people until their future uniting. On page 500 of the Scofield Bible, Dr. Scofield says, "The two Kingdoms are to be reunited in the future Kingdom" and then cites a number of Scriptures to prove the assertion.

The many Scriptures also which require that Israel in these last days shall be a maritime people "whose seed shall be in many waters" cannot be applied to the Jews; but they apply perfectly to the BIRTHRIGHT section of Isaac’s descendants to whom the promises were made.

We have seen in other broadcasts that Jerusalem was trodden down of the Gentiles exactly "seven times" or 2520 years to the very day. Obadiah in the 17th verse speaks of the soldiers under General Allenby, who delivered Jerusalem from the Turks on the exact day and in the exact manner in which God says Jerusalem would be delivered, as belonging to the House of Jacob (verse 17). The next verse shows us what part of "The House of Jacob" they were - "The House of Joseph." And the next verse shows what part of the House of Joseph they were - "Ephraim;" and in the same verse He speaks of them as "the children of Israel." Also in Ezekiel 25:14 God shows us that it would be Israel who would drive out the Turks and end the "treading down of the Gentiles" in Palestine. To insist that these Scriptures addressed to Israel are to be applied to the Jews is to call the soldiers of General Allenby Jews.

Thus, you see that if we were to discuss each of the hundreds of Bible references to Israel as distinct from the Jews, it would furnish matter for a large volume.

In the authorized daily prayer book of the United Hebrew Congregation of the British Empire, there are three prayers which they pray for Israel as distinct from themselves. They pray both for "Judah" and "Israel." In one of these prayers they speak of Ephraim-Israel as "our brethren." Dr. V. Herman Adler, who in the past was chief rabbi of the Jewish Church in England, wrote: "The Ten Tribes did not return to the Holy Land."

The House of Israel and The House of Judah[bless and do not curse]-[bless and do not curse]Truth in History

 

[tim-from-pa]

I'll summarize what N2 's thoughts are about in the last 4 posts:

1) The whole of the Israelites were divided into 2 nations just as this nation had the Yanks and Rebels during the civil war. Now, you don't apply history ( or prophecy) addressed to the Yanks to the Rebels instead. Likewise, you don't called the Yanks the Rebels and everyone in the States a Rebel just because both belonged to this nation. That's the analogy, but that's what's effectively being done.
2) The online (free) book written at the turn of the last century Judah's Septre/Joseph's Birthright by J.H. Allen that was mentioned in the posts is a nice introduction to this subject. It's 30 chapters long, and none of the chapters is too long. I would suggest to those unfamiliar with this topic to read one chapter a day, and get thru it in a month. The man used plenty of scripture to support the doctrine --- not just isolated ones as the critics claim. The theme runs thru most books of the bible, and considering the bible is a book about Israel, I would have to admit it's pretty important that someone explains that as well as he does.

 

[JohnD]

Shem / semite
Eber / Hebrew
Israel / Israeli
Judah / Jew

Technical distinction yet universal application to the children of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

It is a loose jargon of understanding with specificity by additional information when needed. I suppose one could say in this inclusive manner of speaking Noah and Adam in the long list of the parts of what makes a Jew a Jew. And the tent of the tribe of Judah did expand to cover all the tribes.

 

[JohnD]

The so-called lost 10 tribes essentially fell away into paganism / mingled gentiles as the people of the Lord came under increasing refinements and distinction. Keep this in mind to see who all the prophecies about Mt Seir, Esau, Edom apply to.

And it would not surprise me many of who came to Christ (ostensibly as Gentiles) actually have some blood of the lost 10 tribes in their veins and were a deliberate target of the Lord to seek his lost sheep.

 

[Kathi]

Question: "What are the twelve tribes of Israel?"

Answer:The twelve tribes of Israel came from the twelve sons of Israel. “Israel” is the name that God gave Jacob (Genesis 32:28). His twelve sons are Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph, and Benjamin (Genesis 35:23-26;Exodus 1:1–4;1 Chronicles 2:1–2). When the tribes inherited the Promised Land, Levi’s descendants did not receive a territory for themselves (Joshua 13:14). Instead, they became priests and had several cities scattered throughout all of Israel. Joseph’s tribe was divided in two—Jacob had adopted Joseph’s two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, essentially giving Joseph a double portion for his faithfulness in saving the family from famine (Genesis 47:11–12). This means the tribes who received territory in the Promised Land were Reuben, Simeon, Judah, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Issachar, Zebulun, Benjamin, Ephraim, and Manasseh. In some places in Scripture, the tribe of Ephraim is referred to as the tribe of Joseph (Numbers 1:32–33).

After King Solomon died, Israel split into two kingdoms. Judah, to the south, included Judah, Simeon, and Benjamin. The other tribes combined to make the kingdom of Israel in the north. Israel was destroyed by the Assyrians, and most of the Israelites were either killed or deported; the Israelites who remained most likely integrated with the kingdom of Judah.

Jesus was from Judah, Paul was from Benjamin, and John the Baptist was a Levite, but, since thediasporain A.D. 70, identifying the tribe of a modern Jew is a little more difficult. That doesn't mean that the tribal divisions are irrelevant. During thetribulation, when most of the world has abandoned God and is following theAntichrist,144,000Jews will be sealed by God. This number comprises 12,000 from each tribe. So, even if we don’t know who is in what tribe, God has kept track. The tribes are listed again inRevelation 7:5-8, but they are not the same tribes that were given land in Joshua. Manasseh is there, and Ephraim (under Joseph’s name). But instead of Dan, Levi is included. No explanation is given as to why.

Read more:http://www.gotquestions.org/twelve-tribes-Israel.html#ixzz3UTcbREC8

 

[JohnD]

Just to add a tidbit, the split between Judah and Israel reverted in Solomon's reign. Saul ruled Israel and David ruled Judah previously for 7 years (yes 7 years look for 70th Week prophetic significance). And who is to say that the sealing of the 144,000 won't be of people who will be surprised to find out they are even Jewish?

 

[Kathi]

The Jehovah Witness want to say it is them but the 144,000 will be the 12 Jewish tribes.

 

[n2thelight]

The Jehovah Witness want to say it is them but the 144,000 will be the 12 Jewish tribes.

Once again,all 12 tribes are not Jewish.........