Who can handle the truth?

[Guest]

Question: "Does John 3:13 mean that no one went to Heaven before Jesus?"
Answer: John 3:13 says, "And no one has ascended up to Heaven except He who came down from Heaven, the Son of Man who is in Heaven." This verse is somewhat difficult to interpret and is often misunderstood. It is also frequently used by those who want to find contradictions in the Bible. Looking at the verse in context, verses 10-12 especially, we see that Jesus is speaking on the subject of the authority and validity of His teaching. In verse 13, Jesus explains to Nicodemus why He alone is qualified to speak of these things, namely, because He is to only one who has ever gone to heaven and then come back with knowledge from heaven to teach to people.

No man, therefore, can speak of heavenly things as authoritatively as Jesus. To speak of those things requires intimate acquaintance with them and demands that they have been seen and experienced as only Jesus has. As no one has ascended into heaven and returned, so no one is qualified to speak of these things but He who came down from heaven. Jesus was saying that He alone was the one who had seen the Father, and He alone was qualified to declare God and make Him known John 1:18.

This does not mean that no one had ever gone to heaven or had been saved, for Enoch and Elijah had been born there Genesis 5:24 Hebrews 11:5 2 Kings 2:11 and Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and others were there. Rather, it means that no one had ascended and “returned,” in such a way as to be qualified to speak of the things there. "Ascending" carries the idea of going some place with authority. Jesus is the only one who has ever ascended to heaven with authority, since He is God’s only Son John 1:14.

www.gotquestions.org/John-3-13.html

Without the resurrection, I would die, and that would be it. No man dies now and ascends to heaven. (John 3:13)

the prophet paul and the criminal on the cross have died on this earth. where did they go..

Question: When a born again Christian dies, where does he go?
Answer: I know the Seventh Day Adventists say that Christians don't really go to heaven immediately because they believe born again Christians' spirits are sleeping until Jesus returns. However, this is not what Jesus or Paul taught. Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

The Adventists say, “It only seems like it will be right away because when someone is sleeping they are not aware of the passage of time. So their next conscience thought will be in heaven.” But do you see the subtle difference in wording here. They are saying what Paul said is just not quit correct. He would not be immediately with the Lord in his body; he would only be there when his spirit wakes up. This is why we as Christians need to defend the truth of God's Word.

When a born again Christian dies, they go immediately to heaven. Paul says this in the book of Corinthians in the Bible. “ 6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.” (2 Corinthians 5:6-8)

After the parenthetical thought of v. 7, Paul resumes where he left off in v. 6. He was not only confident (v. 6) that he was going to be with the Lord, he was pleased that he would be with the Lord after his death. This is one of the passages in the New Testament that indicates where believers will go immediately after their death; they will be with Jesus in heaven, “For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you.” Phil. 1:23, 24).

Also, Jesus promise to the repentant criminal on the cross next to Him indicates that we go right to heaven when we die: "Today you will be with Me in Paradise" Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, "If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us." But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, "Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong." Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom." And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." (Luke 23:39-43).

http://bible-christian.org/discussion/response287.html

 

[BornAgain]

In A few good men, Tom Cruise screamed at Jack Nicholson, "I want the truth! I want the truth!" And Nicholson answered, "You can't handle the truth!" I'm wondering how many of us really know the truth. The LORD questioned Job about how much he really knew.

Where was thou when I layed the foundations of the earth? Declare, if thou has understanding. Who laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? Or who stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations fastened? Or who laid the cornerstone therof; when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? Job 38.4

Poor Job got drilled by our Father! Naturally, Job had no remembrance of God creating the heavens or the earth for Job was a flesh man. But who were those morning stars, singing in harmony, and who were those sons of God, exuberant in their joy? They were US, of course, before being born of our mothers, and we were blissfully happy and content. This was before Satan's overthrow, the Katabole. Naturally, we cannot remember this either, because this was before being born again, begotten from above. Now back to my question. I wonder how many of us can handle these Biblical truths?

I like that saying, the truth hurts.

What is truth and what the the characteristics of truth?

We may say that truth is right or upright. In Psalm 19:8 it reads, “The statutes of the Lord are right.†In Psalm 119:128 the psalmist said, “All Your precepts concerning all things I consider to be right.â€

When we speak of truth, we are talking about that which is righteous, that which is right, and that which is above the normal standard. We are talking about that which is just and fair.

In Revelation 15:3 God is spoken of as a just and true God. So, truth is right, just, fair, and trustworthy. Part of truth is that you can trust it. Proverbs 3:5-6:, “Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understand­ing; in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct your paths.â€

In Job 13:15 Job said, “Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him.†Because God is trustworthy, Job was going to trust Him.

 

[tim-from-pa]

This does not mean that no one had ever gone to heaven or had been saved, for Enoch and Elijah had been born there Genesis 5:24 Hebrews 11:5 2 Kings 2:11 and Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and others were there. Rather, it means that no one had ascended and “returned,†in such a way as to be qualified to speak of the things there. "Ascending" carries the idea of going some place with authority. Jesus is the only one who has ever ascended to heaven with authority, since He is God’s only Son John 1:14.

Let's just deal with these bible characters first. Enoch and Elijah are dead, awaiting the resurrection like anyone else. Your statement,

Rather, it means that no one had ascended and “returned,†in such a way as to be qualified to speak of the things there.

Is a prime example of interpreting scripture to fit your notions. Jesus said ascended, period. Let's not add to anything here.

Genesis 5:24 merely says that God took him. Where? It does not say. To heaven is an assumption. Likewise with Elijah. Heaven is the word used for the atmosphere. It would be equivalent to saying today we saw someone take off in a plane into the sky. The plane can then land somewhere else. Indeed, apparently it did with Elijah since he wrote a letter delivered to King Jehoram later on.

Now, what about Hebrews 11 where Enoch "should not see death"? You have to know the history behind that. Enoch, as well as Noah were preachers of righteousness before the Flood. They wanted to kill Enoch. The rendering is equivalent to saying that God took him (to safety) so that he should not be killed. On the contrary, the same chapter says he died.

The idea that the soul or spirit in a disembodied state abiding in heaven until it can be rejoined to another (spiritual) body makes no sense, and again, a resurrection would not be necessary. This is part of the false immortal soul doctrine.

Man is mortal, and only God can grant immortality based on His conditions and starts at the resurrection. There is a resurrection of the just to eternal life, and that of damnation to eternal fire. There the person is fully destroyed and experiences the second death to perish forever, as if he never existed, hence eternal.

 

[Guest]

The idea that the soul or spirit in a disembodied state abiding in heaven until it can be rejoined to another (spiritual) body makes no sense, and again, a resurrection would not be necessary. This is part of the false immortal soul doctrine.

Man is mortal, and only God can grant immortality based on His conditions and starts at the resurrection. There is a resurrection of the just to eternal life, and that of damnation to eternal fire. There the person is fully destroyed and experiences the second death to perish forever, as if he never existed, hence eternal.

first of all, jesus not only had a spirit, he had a body, soul and mind. 'rejoined' as in body to body/soul to soul/spirit to spirit/mind to mind; person standing next to person. body to body because jesus was a human body walking this earth. when scripture says we are sealed until redemption he means we are sealed with his holy spirit in this life, sealed as in sealed inside of us, redemption meaning death. Ephesians 4:30 - after death we don't need to be sealed with his spirit anymore because we will be walking with him in heaven, person standing next to person. a resurrection would be necessary because you cannot enter holy land without being born of the holy spirit in this life. where jesus lives now is holy. in order to believe in the resurrection of christ on this earth, you must understand that jesus wasn't just the son of god, he was god the son. he was god first before he was son. god the father is a spirit. you must also believe there is a heaven not of this world. John 18:36 says my kingdom is not of this world. that is where jesus lives right now, he is sitting at the right hand of god in heaven. Mark 16:19 - he is alive right now in heaven! you are ignoring all the scriptures about heaven and the kingdom of god.

what is false about your soul and spirit. the ingredients which make us human beings belong to the soul. the intellect, thought, ideals, love, emotion, understanding, decision, choice, and other like qualities are all associated with the soul. the functions of a soul are will, mind and emotion. the functions of a spirit are conscience, intuition and communion. a person's soul and spirit resides inside of flesh. are you saying you do not have a soul. what is the definition of a soul to you. if your spirit of conscience, intuition, and communion isn't aligned with your soul of will, mind and emotions of god.. then what does that say of that person.

yes, man is only mortal. we are subject to death in this lifetime on our present earth, but our idea of resurrection is different. we are only immortal in our resurrected bodies in heaven after death. this life is temporary. your definition of resurrection is completely off base. what did jesus mean when he said his kingdom is not of this world.

Luke 23:43 - why did jesus say to the criminal on the cross that today you will be with me in paradise.

There is a resurrection of the just to eternal life

your sentence is correct, but your idea of what resurrection is, is way off base. i still don't understand what your idea of resurrection is. where/when/why/how is this resurrection happening.

 

[Aloysium]

i'm not sure i can handle the truth, because my imagination is too small to contain it

in terms of the verses you are trying to understand, the way i see it is:

that we are eternal beings

which means that our soul lies within but also outside of the movement from birth to death in which we participate

it's not so much that we exist in heaven "before" and "after" our time here on earth, but rather that our souls exist in eternity

 

[tim-from-pa]

first of all, jesus not only had a spirit, he had a body, soul and mind. 'rejoined' as in body to body/soul to soul/spirit to spirit/mind to mind; person standing next to person. body to body because jesus was a human body walking this earth. when scripture says we are sealed until redemption he means we are sealed with his holy spirit in this life, sealed as in sealed inside of us, redemption meaning death. Ephesians 4:30 - after death we don't need to be sealed with his spirit anymore because we will be walking with him in heaven, person standing next to person. a resurrection would be necessary because you cannot enter holy land without being born of the holy spirit in this life. where jesus lives now is holy. in order to believe in the resurrection of christ on this earth, you must understand that jesus wasn't just the son of god, he was god the son. he was god first before he was son. god the father is a spirit. you must also believe there is a heaven not of this world. John 18:36 says my kingdom is not of this world. that is where jesus lives right now, he is sitting at the right hand of god in heaven. Mark 16:19 - he is alive right now in heaven! if jesus isn't alive in heaven, then why pray! why does this forum have a testimony and prayer page. you are ignoring all the scriptures about heaven and the kingdom of god.

what is false about your soul and spirit. the ingredients which make us human beings belong to the soul. the intellect, thought, ideals, love, emotion, understanding, decision, choice, and other like qualities are all associated with the soul. the functions of a soul are will, mind and emotion. the functions of a spirit are conscience, intuition and communion. a person's soul and spirit resides inside of flesh. are you saying you do not have a soul. what is the definition of a soul to you. if your spirit of conscience, intuition, and communion isn't aligned with your soul of will, mind and emotions of god.. then what does that say of you.

man is not mortal in this lifetime on our present earth. i don't understand what you're saying. if man is mortal, then where did the 12 prophets of jesus go and the criminal on the cross after they died, they're certainly not living on this earth anymore. that's common sense, when we die we are no longer a part of this earth. for example, say my friend died last year, i can't grab a coffee with him anymore because he's dead. we are only immortal in our resurrected bodies in heaven after death. this life is temporary. your definition of resurrection is completely off base. what did jesus mean when he said his kingdom is not of this world. do you understand that everybody dies in this lifetime.

you also disregarded the scripture of jesus and the criminal on the cross. when the criminal and jesus we're hanging on the cross, they we're on this present earth. if they didn't die, then why was the criminal removed from the cross and nicodemus and joseph of arimathea removing the body of jesus from the cross.

Luke 23:43 - why did jesus say to the criminal on the cross that today you will be with me in paradise.



your sentence is correct, but your idea of what resurrection is, is way off base. i still don't understand what your idea of resurrection is. where/when/why/how is this resurrection happening.

First of all, I get this feeling I am being misunderstood here. Of course there is a resurrection, and when I said that a resurrection would not be necessary, it's a big "if" one was already a spirit being in heaven before the resurrection, then such a person already attained their goal without a resurrection (which of course is ludicrous). One can't be in a place fully complete without being raised in other words.

And of course Jesus is in heaven. That's because he did raise again, and not before. Did we raise yet? (rhetorical question). Where "everybody goes" after death is a state of sleep. God will raise them again so they are not forgotten.

Secondly, the Kingdom is not merely in heaven. If you read the bible carefully, we understand that ultimately heaven comes to earth. First, we have the Lord coming back for the Millennial Kingdom. The purpose of the church is to rule and reign with Christ here in this earth, teaching the people. It's not about "dying and going to heaven". Later on, we see a new heaven and new earth created (renovation) with the glorious visions of John in Revelation 21 and 22. When Jesus says His Kingdom is not of this world, he is referring to the power behind His Kingdom. Is it of God, or the "world, flesh and the devil"? Right now the Kingdoms of this world are not subject to God until the time of the end. "Of" is not indicative of location, but rather the source.

To take a similar example, I believe the Great Pyramid is prophecy in stone. Would the Egyptians know that? I don't think they were the builders. It can be said the Great Pyramid is not of Egypt albeit is in Egypt.

Thirdly, I would not base any doctrine of where one goes after immediately death because of Luke 23:43. It is well known fact about that "comma" controversy amongst theologians. Was Jesus saying, "Truly I say unto you, Today you shall be with me in paradise." Or was it "Truly I say unto you today, you shall be with me in paradise."?

Likewise am I saying, "Let's eat, Grandma!"
or, "Let's eat Grandma!"? What a world of difference a comma (and translation) makes. When there's doubt, we have to find other scriptures which say that those who died sleep until the resurrection, including what Paul stated. But not to worry. The sleep is a very deep one, better than being knocked out for surgery. Time means nothing, and after one dies his next immediate conscious moment will be "present with the Lord". Like instant time travel to the future. The sleeping part is for this earth, and this age in time. Eternity is altogether different.

 

[Guest]

let's narrow this down to what we are disagreeing with so our conversations don't move in circles. the reason we're disagreeing is because we have different ideas of what resurrection is. we are both making that obvious. so we need to figure out why we disagree, let's resolve that first.

ok, what you have to understand before we go any further is that there are two resurrections, baptism resurrection of body/soul/spirit/mind on this old earth and the new resurrection after death with our new resurrected body/soul/spirit/mind in heaven.

And of course Jesus is in heaven. That's because he did raise again, and not before.

explanation of salvation on old earth/yes before - before, meaning god the father of spirit drawing you into salvation on this old earth because god loved you first before you loved him, being born of the holy spirit on this old earth! the reason we have to be born of his holy spirit on this old earth is because we cannot enter holy land without being born of the holy spirit first. do you understand what i mean by land, land as in a separate place that we walk on separate from this old earth.

explanation of the home of jesus & why we need salvation on old earth - where jesus lives is holy, and jesus himself is holy. the kingdom of god and the kingdom of heaven are synonyms of each other. this is his home. in order to walk into his home. you have to be born of his holy spirit through his ressurection on this old earth first. being born of his spirit is to have an intimate relationship with him inside of our body/soul/spirit/mind through his resurrection here on this old earth first.

explanation of knocking on god's house in his kingdom - i will also give you an excellent example of god's house inside of god's kingdom. say you walked into a neighborhood that you've never been in before, you stop at a house, then you walk up to the house and knock on the door. the person at the house opens the door, and you say to the person, "hey person can i live with you." this person would look at you like your crazy. this person doesn't know you, you are a stranger to him.

well, the neighborhood i'm referring to is outside the gates of the kingdom of god in heaven. the house i'm referring to is god's kingdom on the inside of the gates. the person answering the door is jesus at the gates. he doesn't know you so why would he let you in. people that are born of the holy spirit on this old earth are allowed to enter into god's kingdom because they had an intimate relationship with jesus before they died here on this old earth. jesus knows them because of holy spirit baptism on this old earth.

questions for you
1. do you believe god is the substance of spirit and jesus is god the son of flesh
2. do you believe this earth we are on in is a fallen world controlled by satan, and this earth is old earth.
3. do you believe heaven and the new earth are new physical places where we live with christ in body/soul/spirit/mind separate from the old earth.

 

[farouk]

No bodily resurrection = no gospel. Ephesians 1.20-21 says concerning the Lord Jesus that He 'raised Him from the dead, and set Him at His own right hand in the heavenly places, far above all principality and power and might and dominion'.

Paul to the Corinthians says: 'If Christ be not risen, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins' (1 Corinthians 15.17)

 

[tim-from-pa]

ok, what you have to understand before we go any further is that there are two resurrections, baptism resurrection of body/soul/spirit/mind on this old earth and the new resurrection after death with our new resurrected body/soul/spirit/mind in heaven.

OK, let's stop right there and go no further because that is bunk. It is appointed unto man once to die, i.e. everyone will die at least once. I was physically born, and had no resurrection (bringing back to life) because I did not die yet. You can't raise before you die. You are making up your own theology.

As for mankind in general, there are actually 3 resurrections:

Revelation states blessed are those who are in the first resurrection. These are the believers in Christ, who will rule and reign with him.

The second resurrection takes place after the 1000 year millennial reign of Christ. This is found in Revelation 20:11-12. These are those who were never called or did not have the chance at getting salvation. They are raised as a physical (not spiritual body as the believers in Christ) person, and were neither saved nor lost, but are given a chance to follow God's Law in the Great White Throne Judgement. They may be saved later on. Lastly, there's the 3rd resurrection of the wicked in Revelation 20:13-14. These are those given the chance at salvation, but refused it.

But each individual has one resurrection, not two. One either has two births and one death, or one birth and two deaths.

 

[reba]

2.5: Respect each others' opinions. Address issues, not persons or personalities. Give other members the respect you would want them to give yourself

Not necessarily directed at the last poster.

 

[Guest]

since we are putting them all out there, there is actually 4 resurrections that are most important because these are the resurrections that deal with salvation, especially the 2nd and 3rd..

1st resurrection - jesus raising lazarus from the dead
2nd resurrection - jesus resurrecting himself after his death
3rd resurrection - when we are saved
4th resurrection - when jesus comes again
http://www.truth-reason.com/2011/05/22/four-resurrections/

why do you think preachers exist, their not just preaching out loud to kill time. the spirit of god and his word indwells this preacher. are you saying god doesn't draw people to his salvation in this lifetime, he's been drawing people to his salvation all throughout history. when you are saved he raises you up, meaning that he raises you out of your sins in the body that you're in now while you are still alive! that's why for example, there are preachers still preaching on this old earth. we are raised with christ as a new creature living on this old earth! you are born of water first, then while you are still alive on this old earth, it is god's timing to raise you out of your sins. you are able to seek god, but god the father is the only one that draws you to salvation. when he baptizes you in his holy spirit, he washes your sins away whiter than snow while you are still alive in this body and lifetime and you are raised up out of bondage to sin. Isaiah 1:18

Revelation states blessed are those who are in the first resurrection. These are the believers in Christ, who will rule and reign with him.

yes, but he is speaking of the 2nd and 3rd resurrection here in this lifetime on this old earth, so we can rule and reign with him after our death on this old earth..http://www.truth-reason.com/2011/05/22/four-resurrections/

These are those given the chance at salvation, but refused it. These are those who were never called or did not have the chance at getting salvation. They are raised as a physical (not spiritual body as the believers in Christ) person, and were neither saved nor lost, but are given a chance to follow God's Law in the Great White Throne Judgement. They may be saved later on.

we are not given a chance for salvation after we die on this old earth. we don't have authority to sin all we want in this lifetime without consequences, then after death we get to make up our minds that we want salvation. it doesn't work that way. there are consequences to our actions in this lifetime. if you refuse salvation in this lifetime while you are still alive, that person is sentenced to damnation in hell.

reba - respectfully noted, ty - urk

 

[iLOVE]

The natural man thinking sees a christian death. They focus on what is seen (temporary). While the supernatural man thinking sees a christian not ending in death. The supernatural man no, it is for God’s glory so that God’s Son may be glorified through it. They focus on what is unseen (the eternal).

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? John 11:25-26
​

 

[Slider]

I imagine that Watchman must be shocked and flabbergasted (that's one of my favorite words!) that no one is supporting him on this!

For the record, I do. What wasn't done was the groundwork to show how the morning stars might have been talking about us. It was just pushed as a truth. I'm not saying that what was written in Job was talking about us, but the possibility is there. If you don't believe in predestination, you probably won't understand the line of thinking to get there. Not saying they are the same thing, but both require a belief that we were somehow around in one way or another when God created everything.

 

[watchman333]

Hi Slider. Thanks for the support, but I'm really not suprised or shocked at our misunderstandings on these subjects. These are difficult Biblical truths, especially if a particular way ot teaching (religion) does not agree with them. I believe we can all agree that the Holy Bible is our TRUTH and anyone trying to teach outside of our Father's Word is a liar or deceiver. It then comes down to differences in interpretation of the Bible. For me, when I hear God say, All souls are Mine (Ezekiel 18.4) I know that is truth and then it is a matter of WHEN God created our souls. Since we have, in this thread, God's testimony that He knew Jeremiah, Jacob and Esau before they were born of woman, it would be a stretch for me to believe we were not with God before the foundation (Katabole) of this world. In other words, before Satan's rebellion. I think it would behoove us to know these things before our silver cord is loosed (our spinal cord), or our golden bowl be broken (our head) or our pitcher be broken at the fountain (our heart gives out). At that point, we are heading home to our REAL Father.

Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it. Ecclesiastes 12.7