Bible Study Who Has Ascended into Heaven?

[Free]

Michael and Satan were fighting over Moses body. What for? Satan wanted to cremate him and Michael wanted to bury him? Some sort of 'turf' feud?

Obviously we see that Moses was given a special privilege and taken to heaven.

You are basing your interpretation of Matt 17:3-4 on a single verse (Jude 9) whose meaning is very much in dispute and is likely taken from the apocryphal/pseudepigraphical work, The Assumption of Moses (Testament of Moses). Jude is using the passage as an illustration, but this doesn't mean that this is what happened.

I think again, that the term 'first fruits' implies final conquering over death and not special resurrection. Christ raised people from the dead before He himself raised. Elisha raised someone from the dead as well, so people were raised from the dead before Christ.

As first fruits, he is the first and only person to conquer the concept of death by resurrection to life as opposed to direct intervention to raise someone from the dead.

In this, Christ was indeed the 'first fruits' as nobody had the power to be resurrected with the results Christ did.

Except that according to you, Moses was resurrected to never die again, while all those Jesus resurrected would have died and are awaiting the final resurrection of all believers, which is the "first resurrection."

 

[guibox]

Except that according to you, Moses was resurrected to never die again, while all those Jesus resurrected would have died and are awaiting the final resurrection of all believers, which is the "first resurrection."

Valid point. So what's the alternative? The Bible makes it clear (and even believers in the immortality of the soul concur) that those who died in the OT do not have immortal souls or go to heaven (many who do believe in IOTS say that the OT dead were freed after Christ rose and then went to heaven).

So how do you explain Moses AND Elijah standing next to Christ? Did they go to another 'heaven' that Christ was not talking about when He said, 'no man but the Son of man has ascended to the heavens'?

You still haven't explained how Christ's grammatical usage of the present tense 'no man has ascended to the heaven but the Son of Man'. Christ, Himself did not ascend to heaven before, during or after He said this statement.

I still believe that Moses, Elijah (and Enoch for that matter) were taken to heaven as special privilege and that Christ's words must have a deeper or more eschaetological meaning than the obvious.

 

[James1979]

I agree with guilebox. I believe that Moses, Elijah and Enoch have their spiritual bodies that the remaining of the believers will received once Christ comes in the clouds with power and glory.

Luke 9:30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:

31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

32 But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.

In verse 30 God tells us that there were moses and elias talking with Jesus and they were "men" 31 verse says that they appeared in glory. 32 verse says that peter, james , john saw Jesus glory and the two men stood with Jesus, Moses and Elijah

Apparently Moses and Elijah are described as men, and they are in glory which is identical to Jesus glory as Jesus was in a physical body as well. So Jesus and Moses, Elijah had a body that was spiritually glorified.

 

[Michael A Disciple]

Guibox,

If it were a special privelige we would not have this:

15: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16: Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. 1 Tim. 6:15-16

Yeshua only has immortality.

 

[guibox]

Guibox,

If it were a special privelige we would not have this:

15: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16: Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. 1 Tim. 6:15-16

Yeshua only has immortality.

Yes, only God has immortality as an inherent trait. However how do you explain the angels? If they are with God they do indeed have eternal life but it is only found in God. Separation from God brings on death (something immortal soul supporters haven't figured out yet)

Moses and Elijah were given the same privilege of being connected to God in direct fashion as we will be at the end of time

 

[Free]

I haven't totally forgotten about this thread guibox. I just finished two papers and have finals in two weeks, but I should be able to get something to you.