John Zain
Member
You don't believe a person can discern whether someone's statements line up with the NT?
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Who I believe God’s elect are
- Thread starter John Zain
- Start date
smaller
Member
Seriously John Zain. Can you NOT see that we are tempted in mind and heart by the tempter, determining this to be a fact from scriptures? Seriously?
IF this is so, how in the WORLD can you possibly spread GRACE or ELECTION over that working?
???
That kind of methodology makes for very very poor doctrines and understandings.
smaller
Member
Re: Mine Elect, in Whom My soul delighteth...
I don't think anyone who understands election would say any different.
I don't think anyone who understands election would say any different.
It's a terrible arrogant doctrine to think God only elects a few for a purpose, when the bible teaches God elects people in his timing, first the jews, then the gentiles. In no way does it make one more special than the other, God brings salvation to people in his order, not ours.
The doctrines of elect are held by some in many religions, of course each religion hold somehow they are special. It's not about being special, that breeds arrogance and racism, it's about God showing salvation in his timing, during time the elect changes, now it is the church, believers of today.
18Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
The doctrines of elect are held by some in many religions, of course each religion hold somehow they are special. It's not about being special, that breeds arrogance and racism, it's about God showing salvation in his timing, during time the elect changes, now it is the church, believers of today.
18Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Denique Coelum
Member
I'm not sure I quite follow what the disagreement is here...
To me, election is simple: God has chosen, before time was, those who are to be His people, His worshippers, believers, the saved. He brings them into this world and then works in them to bring about salvation and form something in them which is for His pleasure.
We don't know who God has chosen, beyond those people who we know are believers and can point to as elect, as being in Christ. So why is the doctrine of election (or predestination, as I believe it's also termed) so contentious?
I can see one problem with it, and that is when it's brought into the gospel. The doctrine of election has no place in the gospel. C.H. Macintosh established this very decisively in his writings in the 19th Century, and I should hope that all intelligent believers wouldn't look for its inclusion or have an issue with excluding the doctrine of election from the gospel.
That said, could someone explain to me in simple terms for this bear of little brain, what the problem is? :help
To me, election is simple: God has chosen, before time was, those who are to be His people, His worshippers, believers, the saved. He brings them into this world and then works in them to bring about salvation and form something in them which is for His pleasure.
We don't know who God has chosen, beyond those people who we know are believers and can point to as elect, as being in Christ. So why is the doctrine of election (or predestination, as I believe it's also termed) so contentious?
I can see one problem with it, and that is when it's brought into the gospel. The doctrine of election has no place in the gospel. C.H. Macintosh established this very decisively in his writings in the 19th Century, and I should hope that all intelligent believers wouldn't look for its inclusion or have an issue with excluding the doctrine of election from the gospel.
That said, could someone explain to me in simple terms for this bear of little brain, what the problem is? :help
Eventide
Member
Re: Mine Elect, in Whom My soul delighteth...
I mentioned why.. because they are IN CHRIST.. they're members of HIS BODY.. and HE is the elect of God.
I mentioned why.. because they are IN CHRIST.. they're members of HIS BODY.. and HE is the elect of God.
Eventide
Member
Re: Mine Elect, in Whom My soul delighteth...
Then it's obvious that people do not understand election.
Then it's obvious that people do not understand election.
John Zain
Member
I probably know more about Satan and his demons than you do
(from Scripture AND experience) ...
but sorry I don't see what it has to do with grace and election.
You seem to be saying that Satan is more powerful than these.
If anyone is elected, God will see them through to the end.
Or, do you think it's impossible to be an "overcomer" (Rev 2-3)?
John Zain
Member
Sure, the problem is those dozens of verses which are so inviting to everyone,
such like: "whosoever believes will be saved".
Most everyone these days is taught that such verses apply to everyone,
i.e. NOT to God's previously-chosen elect.
Were you taught your brand of Calvinism from the cradle, or did you get some kind of revelation?
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smaller
Member
Yes, sure enough to exempt yourself entirely.
It is not only unlikely, but impossible to say that the tempter does not tempt within, and then to spread Grace and Election unto the tempter, which is my 'simple' observation, hard as it seems to be to see.
I have never said anything of the sort. Why do you speak a lie? I know why. Because when the TRUTH of this matter is spoken, God sends these types of things as 'a sign' of the truth being proclaimed. The tempter immediately springs into actions to resist the Truth. Spiritual principle 101
Never said otherwise. Observing this matter doesn't mean I don't believe you are saved. I would never say that.
Most of the time I only ask why it is that believers can not be honest about internal evil sin thoughts that defile us that are of the tempter within to do so?
And the only reason I ask is to see if 'who' I am engaging in discussion with is honest to the scriptures. That's how I discern between someone 'in Truth' (or not.) It also doesn't mean that there is not a 'child of God' also present therein.
Simple question. Simple measure.
I can't in good faith extend Grace, Mercy, Election or any of the good and perfect things of God to the tempter within my own heart. It doesn't compute or even make any logical sense whatsoever to 'do that.'
s
Stormcrow
Member
"For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.
"The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples, but because the LORD loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the LORD brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
"Know therefore that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God, who keeps His covenant and His lovingkindness to a thousandth generation with those who love Him and keep His commandments; Deuteronomy 7:6-9 (NASB)
The children of Israel are the elect; the chosen people of God. So when you read the word "elect", used by Paul - a Jew - in the New Testament, then you know to whom He is both writing and referring.
Most members of the early church were Jews. All of the apostles were Jews.
This is where Calvinists get election completely wrong. Gentiles were never the elect of God. Jews were, and they were so chosen to usher in Messiah.
"The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples, but because the LORD loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the LORD brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
"Know therefore that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God, who keeps His covenant and His lovingkindness to a thousandth generation with those who love Him and keep His commandments; Deuteronomy 7:6-9 (NASB)
The children of Israel are the elect; the chosen people of God. So when you read the word "elect", used by Paul - a Jew - in the New Testament, then you know to whom He is both writing and referring.
Most members of the early church were Jews. All of the apostles were Jews.
This is where Calvinists get election completely wrong. Gentiles were never the elect of God. Jews were, and they were so chosen to usher in Messiah.
I have to wonder....then why was it necessary for Christ to come and die? Whom did he die for if the destiny of those he died for was already determined and they can't do anything about it? I'm confused.
smaller
Member
Luke 8:
15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
WIP, are you pretending to not know? Your discourse from other posts seems to indicate you understand this more than you are letting on. God has mercy where He will have mercy. The revelation unto life is seen in the cross and there is where death was defeated. For had Jesus not gone into hell he could not have broken the gates thereof and set the prisoners free.
Moreover, the word elect is a vague term since, in time, some who have now believed were once unbelievers. But from the view of eternity all who will someday believe are already recognized as those who believed. To him who has, more will be given. But to him who has not, even what little he has will be taken away. I believe that pure Godly Love is what thing Jesus is refering to. And elswhere he says, "I know you that you have not the Love of God in your heart for in whom God has sent you do not believe". Consequently Godly Love is necessary to believe in the Christ. For those who are of God hears God's words.
Denique Coelum
Member
Oh, indeed! Everyone who believes will be saved, I wouldn't dispute that for a minute. Everyone who believes are the elect, and God knows who they are. We don't. Scripture is full of wonderful generalisations, such as "whomsoever believes on Him". God knows who will believe and who won't, because faith is an act of God. He has chosen those He will work in and release from unbelief.
I can assure you, I definitely don't subscribe to the Calvinist view. I entirely agree with Macintosh's presentation of the subject (see Pages for the Anxious: Being Glad Tidings and the Ministry of Reconciliation - C.H. Macintosh.
Well, according to my limited understanding, the death of the Lord was necessary in order for the sins of the elect to be forgiven. God chose those in whom He would work with a view to repentance before time was, yet Christ's atoning work still had to take place in order for our sins to be washed away.
There are those who will remain shut up in unbelief until they die and face judgement. God knows who they are. We don't. So, we preach to everyone, and God's invitation is open to everyone. Simply because some will refuse it, doesn't mean that the invitation isn't open to them.
It isn't for us to know each and every one of the elect, only He knows those who are His. These things are mind-boggling for us, rather like the concept of eternity. But it can't be denied that God knows everything, so therefore He must know who will accept His gracious invitation.
To put my view of it as simply as I can:
God has already decided who will be saved.
Persons only come to God through His working in them.
God chooses who He will work in with a view to salvation.
We don't know who God has chosen to work in.
We preach the gospel to all on that basis.
John Zain
Member
Yes, you seem to have the wisdom and revelation to see them as such.
And God has arranged for these to be in Scripture for a reason.
And God has inserted them in such a way as to not lie about anything.
And believe me, He has all of the bases covered (hope you understand baseball).
Later, He can come and say:
"See, I said this or that, but I didn't include this or that, but you assumed this or that, etc."
That's why all spiritual revelation comes through the Holy Spirit,
i.e. it does NOT come by reading some big black words on some thin shiny white paper.
El Proofo: I've talked to many Muslims who have read the NT, but absolutely "no comprendo".
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Denique Coelum
Member
Indeed so, it's wonderful that we have the vast abundance of the Scriptures to make reference to, and it's also wonderful that God's disposition in this dispensation is one of mercy and towards all.
I'm not hugely familiar with baseball, but I get your meaning! :D
Absolutely, the Bible is a 'closed book' to those who don't have the Holy Spirit. Many read it, misunderstand it and mock it, or are offended by it. Some don't even bother to read it, because they've talked to the unbelievers who have had a quick glance through it. It's interesting that you mention Muslims. They, of course, hold the Old Testament to be valid, yet they clearly don't have an understanding of it.
I suppose it really highlights the wonderful service of the Holy Spirit, the necessity of His work, and the uselessness of studying Scripture from a purely intellectual or theological stand-point.
Continuing on this thought, if God has already chosen the saved, what effect does our preaching make? Are you saying that God will fail to save them if we don't preach to them? I should think God can make it work even if they never heard the gospel.
Bear in mind that I am not trying to argue here. I'm trying to grasp what is being said. I appreciate the responses.
In Christ,
John Zain
Member
I've been involved with the Qur'an and Muslims for several years.
Their Qur'an teaches (sometimes tactfully) against the entire Bible.
One example: its versions of the Torah stories are quite different than what's in the Torah.
So, no, I'd say they don't believe what the OT says.
They are like the Mormons, they put their book ahead of the Bible.