Who I believe God’s elect are

[Denique Coelum]

Continuing on this thought, if God has already chosen the saved, what effect does our preaching make? Are you saying that God will fail to save them if we don't preach to them? I should think God can make it work even if they never heard the gospel.

Bear in mind that I am not trying to argue here. I'm trying to grasp what is being said. I appreciate the responses.

In Christ,

Good question! The way I find it easiest to understand is in diagrammatic form. Imagine, if you will, that the line below represents time, and the asterisk above it represents God:

*

Past eternity . . . . ..................................................... . . . Future Eternity​

God isn't limited by time, He is above it and outside it. He chose those who will be His worshippers before time existed. Thus, He orders events so that every person (as the Bible says) will've heard the gospel. How this happens, I can't begin to imagine, but I trust that it does. When we preach, we're part of God's overall plan. God knows when we'll preach and who we'll preach to, He ensures that everyone is in the right place at the right time. It's mind-blowing to think about it, but God manages everything so that every single person He has predestinated to be saved will hear the gospel and believe.

I hope that makes some sort of sense... I haven't explained it very articulately, it's hard to grasp! :

I've been involved with the Qur'an and Muslims for several years.
Their Qur'an teaches (sometimes tactfully) against the entire Bible.
One example: its versions of the Torah stories are quite different than what's in the Torah.
So, no, I'd say they don't believe what the OT says.
They are like the Mormons, they put their book ahead of the Bible.

I see! That's interesting. I know that some Muslims here in Scotland can converse knowledgeably about the content of the Old Testament and respect Christians for their acceptance of the efficacy of it. Perhaps this is just a particular sect of Islam which holds that particular view. Or perhaps they regard the Qur'an and the Old Testament to be compatible enough to be tolerated.

 

[John Zain]

I know that some Muslims here in Scotland can converse knowledgeably about the content
of the Old Testament and respect Christians for their acceptance of the efficacy of it.
Perhaps this is just a particular sect of Islam which holds that particular view.
Or perhaps they regard the Qur'an and the Old Testament to be compatible
enough to be tolerated.

Reading the Bible and Qur'an, one should realize that Allah is not the God of the Bible.

"angel" "Gabriel" who came to Mohammed was Satan or a demon, resulting in Islam.
"angel" "Moroni" who came to Joseph Smith was Satan or a demon, resulting in Mormonism.

Oh, what fun!

 

[Vic C.]

God isn't limited by time, He is above it and outside it. He chose those who will be His worshippers before time existed. Thus, He orders events so that every person (as the Bible says) will've heard the gospel. How this happens, I can't begin to imagine, but I trust that it does. When we preach, we're part of God's overall plan. God knows when we'll preach and who we'll preach to, He ensures that everyone is in the right place at the right time. It's mind-blowing to think about it, but God manages everything so that every single person He has predestinated to be saved will hear the gospel and believe.

I hope that makes some sort of sense... I haven't explained it very articulately, it's hard to grasp!

Don't undermine yourself, Denique. You explained it just fine. He delights in making us active participants in His Plan. It's His hand doing the work. We are His tools. :yes Does He need us to do this for Him? No, He's God and perfectly capable of achieving this himself.

But that goes against His overall plan. We are called to serve and we should be delighted to serve such a Creator that would allow us to be a part of His plan to reconcile mankind to Himself.

 

[WIP]

Good question! The way I find it easiest to understand is in diagrammatic form. Imagine, if you will, that the line below represents time, and the asterisk above it represents God:

*

Past eternity . . . . ..................................................... . . . Future Eternity​

God isn't limited by time, He is above it and outside it. He chose those who will be His worshippers before time existed. Thus, He orders events so that every person (as the Bible says) will've heard the gospel. How this happens, I can't begin to imagine, but I trust that it does. When we preach, we're part of God's overall plan. God knows when we'll preach and who we'll preach to, He ensures that everyone is in the right place at the right time. It's mind-blowing to think about it, but God manages everything so that every single person He has predestinated to be saved will hear the gospel and believe.

I hope that makes some sort of sense... I haven't explained it very articulately, it's hard to grasp! :



I see! That's interesting. I know that some Muslims here in Scotland can converse knowledgeably about the content of the Old Testament and respect Christians for their acceptance of the efficacy of it. Perhaps this is just a particular sect of Islam which holds that particular view. Or perhaps they regard the Qur'an and the Old Testament to be compatible enough to be tolerated.

I think you make more sense than you give yourself credit for. Thank you.

 

[Denique Coelum]

Reading the Bible and Qur'an, one should realize that Allah is not the God of the Bible.

"angel" "Gabriel" who came to Mohammed was Satan or a demon, resulting in Islam.
"angel" "Moroni" who came to Joseph Smith was Satan or a demon, resulting in Mormonism.

Oh, what fun!

I see. Well, I've never had any desire to read the Qur'an, and I certainly won't now! Satan is devious in his attempts to create fundamentally flawed cheap copies of Christianity.

Don't undermine yourself, Denique. You explained it just fine. He delights in making us active participants in His Plan. It's His hand doing the work. We are His tools. :yes Does He need us to do this for Him? No, He's God and perfectly capable of achieving this himself.

But that goes against His overall plan. We are called to serve and we should be delighted to serve such a Creator that would allow us to be a part of His plan to reconcile mankind to Himself.

I'm glad I managed to get my impression across. It's wonderful that we're the tools of God, I suppose it's one of the great blessings He has bestowed on us. He has given us eternal life, sonship and the honour of taking part in priestly service, and His... one would almost like to to say 'condescending grace', but I'm not sure that's the right word... well, His grace anyway, is further displayed in using us as His tools.

I think you make more sense than you give yourself credit for. Thank you.

Glad I could help, WIP! As I say, I think I know what I'm talking about, but getting it across it a coherent way isn't always easy.

 

[John Zain]

Praise the Lord!

 

[John Zain]

He has given us eternal life, sonship and the honour of taking part in priestly service ...

Couldn't resist commenting on this "priestly service" ... it's rarely mentioned.

A certain religious organization insists that its adherents call its leader & underlings "Father".
All of them are to be called "Father", most of whom are also to be called "priests"!

Most adherents just don't realize that all born-again believers are called "priests" in the Bible:
Revelation 1:5-6
... To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,
and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father,
to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

But, just what do the adherents who read the Bible think when they read these verses?

 

[Vic C.]

John,

I'd like to add adoption and sonship as topics rarely mentioned these days. So much of contemporary Christianity seems to centered around "friendship."

http://escapetoreality.org/2010/10/04/son-servant-or-friend-of-god/

 

[Former Christian]

Vic C

How do you mainly identify with God? As a

(a) servant of God,
(b) a friend of God, or
(c) a son of God?

Like most yes/no questions, impossible to answer without giving a wrong impression. One who is truly in Christ must answer

(d) all of the above.

FC

 

[Vic C.]

Like most yes/no questions, impossible to answer without giving a wrong impression. One who is truly in Christ must answer

(d) all of the above.

FC

First off, it isn't a yes/no question.

Secondly, I see the word, mainly, in the question, which leads me to believe there is a matter of importance in mind. With that, I find it very easy and without leaving a wrong impression, to answer, (C).

It's most important to me to view my relationship with God as a Father/son relationship, just as I would with my earthly father.

Second would be, servant. Third would be friend.

 

[Former Christian]

Vic C

Sorry, doesn't work for me. It's like being a Father and a Husband. One doesn't overshadow the other for me.

FC

 

[John Zain]

I'd like to add adoption and sonship as topics rarely mentioned these days.

Perhaps we need to have a thread about Jesus, the Son of God.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia:
“...The word ‘son’ was employed among the Semites to signify not only filiation,
but other close connection or intimate relationship ...”.

From the Jewish Encyclopedia:
“Yet the term (Son of God) by no means carries the idea of physical descent from,
and essential unity with, God the Father. The Hebrew idiom conveys nothing further
than a simple expression of godlikeness.”

But, years before I came across the above, I noticed:
Gabriel did NOT say that Jesus WAS the Son of God.
Gabriel said that Jesus was to be CALLED the Son of God.
If Jesus WAS the Son of God, that's all Gabriel would have had to say,
and He would have been automatically called that.

Everyone says Jesus is the Son of God without thinking of the ramifications.
When we say "son", we think of offspring created through copulation, etc.
And, the Muslims have a field day with this ... calling us morons, and worse,
i.e. Christians say Jesus was a created Son, but He is also God, equal to God, etc.

 

[Denique Coelum]

Couldn't resist commenting on this "priestly service" ... it's rarely mentioned.

A certain religious organization insists that its adherents call its leader & underlings "Father".
All of them are to be called "Father", most of whom are also to be called "priests"!

Most adherents just don't realize that all born-again believers are called "priests" in the Bible:
Revelation 1:5-6
... To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,
and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father,
to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

But, just what do the adherents who read the Bible think when they read these verses?

Exactly. I often wonder the same thing. There are people going on which practices like this which are simply not supported or directly contradicted by Scripture. It's the Enemy's work for sure, because whenever some corruption of the truth comes in, it's with a view to reducing the distinctive nature of the Christian's privileges. Trying to say that only a select few of God's people are His priests? That attempts to restrict God's thought of priesthood to a few persons whom men have decided are suitable to be 'ordained' as such.

The same can be said for those systems which put one man over a congregation in an official capacity, a priest, vicar or even pastor. This denies the Holy Spirit His place. He wants to be free amongst those assembled, so that each and every one might participate in the service, according to their measure, not just to have one man speak and teach and preach. There's so much to be gained and produced when the Holy Spirit is given freedom to operate...

John,

I'd like to add adoption and sonship as topics rarely mentioned these days. So much of contemporary Christianity seems to centered around "friendship."

http://escapetoreality.org/2010/10/04/son-servant-or-friend-of-god/

Ahh, indeed so. It's sad, isn't it, that these precious treasures have been lost sight of by some? It seems that where Satan can't obstruct the planting of the seeds of faith, he tries to pare down Christianity and strip away much of the blessed truth. Spoiling the vineyards as much as he can.