Who is Allah?

[Drummer4Christ]

I am not interested in that discussion. But thank you anyway.

Why not?

They both claim Abraham as a spiritual father, just like Muslims.

They both claim post-Jesus prophetship, just like Muslims.

They both deny Jesus' divinity, just like Muslims.

 

[stovebolts]

Let's study Psalm 83 in it's entirety:

What possible teaching of Abraham could the Ismaelites & Hagrites have misinterpreted that they would seek to destroy Israel? (verse 4)

They were not ignorant of God's name, they denied it. (verse 18)

You seem to not realize the time frame between Abram and this psalm which was written in the time of David.

I have shown you where God's name was not known to Abraham through Scripture. God Himself says that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob did not know God as YHVH so how then could Ishmael know?

This is getting circular, and if you cannot understand that, I am sorry.

God bless.

 

[stovebolts]

Why not?

They both claim Abraham as a spiritual father, just like Muslims.

They both claim post-Jesus prophetship, just like Muslims.

They both deny Jesus' divinity, just like Muslims.

Just because apples and pears are both fruits and have much in common, an apple is not a pear, and a pear is not an apple.
Sorry, not biting.

God bless.

 

[Drummer4Christ]

You seem to not realize the time frame between Abram and this psalm which was written in the time of David.

I have shown you where God's name was not known to Abraham through Scripture. God Himself says that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob did not know God as YHVH so how then could Ishmael know?

This is getting circular, and if you cannot understand that, I am sorry.

God bless.

The point I'm making is that knowing God as YHVH is irrelevant. The same scripture you are using regarding Abraham, Isaac, and Jacobs ignorance of God as YHVH also says that God "appeared" to them. He did not appear to Ishmael.

You cannot have it both ways. Either Abraham was fully aware of Gods nature which he (Abraham) orally passed on to Ishmael or neither Abraham, Isaac & Ishmael were fully aware of Gods nature.

Not only that, Gods justice & mercy are not mutually exclusive.

 

[jasoncran]

Hi Jason,

It has been explained to me by level headed, smart people who understand this better than I in the below terms.

When describing an ocean, some say that it is big and blue. Others call it cold and salty.

They are both talking about the same ocean, but they are describing it differently.

To me, this makes sense, and here is why. In Exodus, we see God saying that Abraham did not know God as YHVH, only as El Shaddia. This is not to say that Abram didn't know the name YHVH, but he did not know God as YHVH by way of attributes.

So if Abram were to describe God, he would use different words than Moses, because Moses knew God by way of YHVH. As such, his account of Genesis would have, and does reflect this view. However, Ishmael would not have known of YHVH, because God never expressed himself to them as YHVH, and I think you can come to your own conclusions from there.

I hope this makes sense to you.

i dont think my jewish cranman would would call ibraham the same abraham. did abraham think he was a prophet in the tanakh? is there any jewish leader of them and now that claims that. i know my grandpa would roll in his grave over that.

really? whose to say that ishmeal didnt know the yhwh as abraham did later on and accept that he wasnt as such as a chosen child remember mohamed was som 600 yrs later after the christianitys birth.

'so his account is quite distorted and you also forget its likely God had other men he used that were in the line of abraham called nahor(his dad) so if isaac was to marry that lineage surely that to know god, and jacob also was promised a wife from laban whose called on the same god as jacob but under a diferent father.

while ultamitely God called jacob and his family ere this fact but that didnt mean the others didnt know him. see job as well.

but that is a digression

ok the ishmealites , a while ago i look that up and the moderan arab isnt the same group.or iffy at best. therefore the modern arab isnt likely the descandant of ishmeal.

http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-myths-arabs-descendants-of-ishmael.htm

http://creationwiki.org/Arabs

 

[jasoncran]

how does one be called a friend of God and not know him? abraham was imputed righteous in gods eyes. few men can see that that side of the cross.

he built altars and named then with his name.

 

[stovebolts]

Gods name isn't important?...drummer, I don't think you understand the signicance of a name.

el shaddie denotes justice. Yhvh denotes mercy.

jason, what is your take on the passage that states abram didn't know God as yhvh?

until this is this is resolved, we are at an impass.

 

[jasoncran]

Gods name isn't important?...drummer, I don't think you understand the signicance of a name.

el shaddie denotes justice. Yhvh denotes mercy.

jason, what is your take on the passage that states abram didn't know God as yhvh?

until this is this is resolved, we are at an impass.

post that verse. do i think that the he know it all ? no. not even we do.
genesis 18
3And said, My LORD, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant

and that was in reference to his prayer for lot in sodom and gommorah. yet it used the YHWH.

whenever the LORD is used theres the YHWH.

and here with hebrew to english and note yahweh was used, so if abraham called him yhwh then why did he call him by that name?

http://interlinearbible.org/genesis/18.htm

i always thought the lord of host is the name of justice not el shaddai (this is a covenent name and also one jesus claimed)

 

[stovebolts]

Exodus 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of El Shaddai, but by my name YHVH was I not known to them.

 

[Drummer4Christ]

Exodus 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of El Shaddai, but by my name YHVH was I not known to them.

Just to clarify:

Is your position that Abraham (and by extension, Ishmael) were ignorant of God's name YHVH, which denotes "mercy"?

Or that Abraham was ignorant of the merciful nature of God?

 

[stovebolts]

I have stated my position.
How do you interpret the above passage.

BTW: If names are of no concern in the bible, why does God command this?

Exodus 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of YHVH thy Elohiem in vain; for YHVH will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

 

[Drummer4Christ]

I have stated my position.
How do you interpret the above passage.

BTW: If names are of no concern in the bible, why does God command this?

Exodus 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of YHVH thy Elohiem in vain; for YHVH will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

In post #54 you assert that, until Moses, God had not revealed His merciful nature.

Granted, Abraham did not know El Shaddai as YHVH.
However, Abraham (and by extension, Ishmael) were intimately aware of God's mercy:

Genesis 18:
16 When the men got up to leave, they looked down toward Sodom, and Abraham walked along with them to see them on their way. 17 Then the LORD said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do? 18 Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him.[c] 19 For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing what is right and just, so that the LORD will bring about for Abraham what he has promised him.”
20 Then the LORD said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.”

22 The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the LORD.[d] 23 Then Abraham approached him and said: “Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare[e] the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? 25 Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?”

26 The LORD said, “If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake.”

27 Then Abraham spoke up again: “Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, though I am nothing but dust and ashes, 28 what if the number of the righteous is five less than fifty? Will you destroy the whole city for lack of five people?”

“If I find forty-five there,” he said, “I will not destroy it.”

29 Once again he spoke to him, “What if only forty are found there?”

He said, “For the sake of forty, I will not do it.”

30 Then he said, “May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak. What if only thirty can be found there?”

He answered, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.”

31 Abraham said, “Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, what if only twenty can be found there?”

He said, “For the sake of twenty, I will not destroy it.”

32 Then he said, “May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak just once more. What if only ten can be found there?”

He answered, “For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it.”

33 When the LORD had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home.


I agree that in the Bible names (which are titles) are important. However, simply because from Adam to Enoch to Abraham to Joseph were unaware of Gods name YHVH, does not mean that Gods merciful & just nature was not known.

Clearly, Ishmael & Hagar did not "misinterpret" who God was because they were ignorant of His divine mercy. Surely, Abraham told them the story of God being willing to spare the unrighteous for the sake of ten righteous.

 

[stovebolts]

Granted, Abraham did not know El Shaddai as YHVH.
However, Abraham (and by extension, Ishmael) were intimately aware of God's mercy:

You have failed to explain the passage, but instead you quote a passage that affirms God's Justice.

What was Abram's justification for saving Sodom?

23 Then Abraham approached him and said;Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare[e] the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? 25 Far be it from you to do such a thing to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right;

26 The LORD said If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake.

Clearly, we see God's Justice in play, not mercy.

BTW, can you tell me what happened to them wicked people? Do we now call that mercy?

If you want to see God's mercy, read Exodus 33 carefully. Study it, and you will find that the angel God sends with them, does not bear His name. Certainly, they will perish when they cross the Jordan. But continue to read, and God's mercy is revealed. You see, Israel deserved punishment, that's what justice called for. They broke covenant, and were not worthy of God's presence. Yet God gives them grace, even in the midst of their wickedness for their repentance. Now that's mercy, and through relationship, they are getting to know God as YHVH in relation to El Shaddai. BTW, El Shaddai denotes justice, but it's in the form of the good shepherd who takes care of his flock.... Just thought I'd add that.

I agree that in the Bible names (which are titles) are important. However, simply because from Adam to Enoch to Abraham to Joseph were unaware of Gods name YHVH, does not mean that Gods merciful & just nature was not known.

Name are more than titles. They are ways of expressing one's attributes. Thus, Abram / Abraham. Jacob / Israel and the list goes on. Would it make a difference if his name was Bob, or George?

 

[Sinthesis]

How does YHVH denote mercy?

 

[Drummer4Christ]

You have failed to explain the passage, but instead you quote a passage that affirms God's Justice.

What was Abram's justification for saving Sodom?

23 Then Abraham approached him and said;Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare[e] the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? 25 Far be it from you to do such a thing to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right;

26 The LORD said If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake.

Clearly, we see God's Justice in play, not mercy.

BTW, can you tell me what happened to them wicked people? Do we now call that mercy?



Name are more than titles. They are ways of expressing one's attributes. Thus, Abram / Abraham. Jacob / Israel and the list goes on. You don't even know what attributes God's name represents. Might as well of called him Bob, or George huh?

Sarcasm noted.

I am fully aware of the significance of God's name and the attributes associated with those names. However, by your argument, the Israelites of Jesus' time should have been looking for a guy named "Immanuel" to be the Messiah, nit one who embodied the attribute of "God with us".

As I've stated previously, Gods justice & mercy are not mutually exclusive:

Genesis 4:
13 Cain said to the LORD, “My punishment is more than I can bear. 14 Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.”

15 But the LORD said to him, “Not so[e]; anyone who kills Cain will suffer vengeance seven times over.” Then the LORD put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him. 16 So Cain went out from the LORD’s presence and lived in the land of Nod,[f] east of Eden.


God meted out His justice on Cain for killing Abel but, also had mercy on Cain by putting a mark on him.


As far as Gods name goes:
Genesis 4:
25 Adam made love to his wife again, and she gave birth to a son and named him Seth,[h] saying, “God has granted me another child in place of Abel, since Cain killed him.” 26 Seth also had a son, and he named him Enosh.

At that time people began to call on the name of the LORD.


Now, compare Genesis 4:26 to Exodus 3:
15 God also said to Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘The LORD,[d] the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.’

Was Abraham ignorant of the Tetragrammaton? Yes
Was Abraham ignorant of the attributes associated with the Tetragrammaton? Certainly not!

In your attempt to prove that Allah is the same as YHVH (because of ignorance/misinterpretation on the part of Ishmael & Hagar) you put God in a box. Not only that, your argument about the significance of the name YHVH betrays you. The name YHVH also denotes the utter transcendence of God. God Himself is beyond all "predications" or attributes of language: He is the Source and Foundation of all possibility of utterance and thus is beyond all definite descriptions.



Getting back to who Allah is:

The Qur'an teaches that Allah is "the greatest deceiver". Even if Ishmael only knew of Gods just nature, there is now way that he misinterpreted Gods justice for deceitfulness.

 

[stovebolts]

And who penned Genesis?... I would hold that it was written through an Exodus perspective. Thus, Genesis 1 as an Eloyhist writing, and chapter two as a Yawistic writing. But let's not go down that bunny trail ok?

You have again failed to interpret the passage, but continue to build your case. I'm afraid we are at an impasse until we address the passage.

Exodus 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of El Shaddai, but by my name YHVH was I not known to them.

Please explain how you view this specific verse from the perspective of Moses at the time God spoke it to him. What does it mean, "was I not known to them". Is there a difference between knowing of something, and knowing it?

And as far as putting God in a box, your the one saying he's not big enough...

 

[stovebolts]

Just wanted to add..
The Muslims don't know Elohiem / Allah as YHVH either... Just so we don't confuse that.

 

[jasoncran]

And who penned Genesis?... I would hold that it was written through an Exodus perspective. Thus, Genesis 1 as an Eloyhist writing, and chapter two as a Yawistic writing. But let's not go down that bunny trail ok?

You have again failed to interpret the passage, but continue to build your case. I'm afraid we are at an impasse until we address the passage.

Exodus 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of El Shaddai, but by my name YHVH was I not known to them.

Please explain how you view this specific verse from the perspective of Moses at the time God spoke it to him. What does it mean, "was I not known to them". Is there a difference between knowing of something, and knowing it?

And as far as putting God in a box, your the one saying he's not big enough...

so when God told him to write these thing he wrote him as he knew him. well that kinda makes no sense. why would he have to write the word elohim to the jews that also had that revalation as he told them and he later taught them(the levites) makes no sense.

i think that the first part of genesis was done that way to seqway to the yhwh. sorry your point on the name isnt clear. we cant know for sure.do we know for a fact that is was passed on or God told him? remember if its passed on and given our weak memories the stories would have changed.

i can see that when theres quotes from the new testament on the old testament as its not word for word. i almost thought that was a contradiction. but its not its to show that some do paraphrase where to look.

 

[jasoncran]

Exodus 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of El Shaddai, but by my name YHVH was I not known to them.

i will use this to counter.
http://interlinearbible.org/exodus/6.htm

this is a transliteration and it says yahweh is the names used.

sorry i disagree, we are running into a translator bias.

 

[stovebolts]

Jason,
Don't be afraid to look this one up within your Jewish heritage.... Both the Ramban and Rashi do a fantastic job explaining this text. And no, it's not mystical or anything like that. But I would suggest they the Jews have a better grip on the names of G-d than any gentile. Just my .02

As far as you comment stating that what I wrote made no sense, are you talking about what I said about Moses penning Genesis?

I'm pretty sure that it's undisputed that Moses penned Genesis. As such, you can't tell me that Moses didn't write with a bias. Even the NT gospel writers wrote with a bias, and they give their bias. This is not to say that the story has changed in any way, but the perspective of the story would have changed in the same manner that you can look back, and see things that at the time were hidden from you. I believe Moses draws these things out.

Perspective, everything is about perspective. For the people who lost their wives and children, homes and livestock to an invading army who just came in and slaughtered everything in sight and just took possession of the land because some god told them to do it... I just can't see those people seeing YHVH as a loving and kind god.

So, considering what Hagar and Ishmael experienced, and the stories his mother would have told him, I can certainly understand their different perspectives on who God was.

Stop and think about how the story would have looked from Hagar's perspective. She bears a son for her masters husband, and then she is put out on her own. yeah, that's some love know isn't it? Sure, God tells her that through Ishmeal, she'll become a great nation, but there's a lot of pain going on there, and I'm sure she's thinking, "This just isn't fair". But then again, this is all presupposition. Maybe she was a wicked witch, full of hate and deception, thus her view of God... because we are going to see what we believe we want to see at times. that's why hind sight is so fantastic.... cause it helps put things in the proper perspective.