Who is Allah?

[Jam]

Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the light", "no one can come to the Father, unless through Me". He also talked about the wide path/narrow door & that many false prophets would come to Him claiming to have done good things in His name but, that He would turn away from them, saying "I never knew thee".

Clearly, there is an objective standard. Not a "subjective" line.

I did not say that there is an objective standard for salvation.

I said that there is a certain subjectivity in our language when referring to things as being "the same". Your quotations are irrelevant to this.

How do you reconcile three religious movements (though monotheistic) that deny Jesus' role as Christ, and one of the three denying God as both Father AND Son?

I don't reconcile them. I think others are wrong about God.



You never responded to my question about oranges, by the way:

Imagine that there is an orange on a table between two men. One man claims that the orange is an orange, and that it is a sweet fruit containing seeds with a harder, bitter "skin" around the flesh. The other man claims that the orange is an orange, and that it is a sweet fruit containing seeds with a harder, sour "skin" around the flesh. Do we insist that both men are talking about different oranges? Of course not! We simply conclude that they are both referring to the same orange, and that one (or both!) of them is just wrong about whether or not the peel is sour or bitter.

 

[Nevalti]

And that's what separates those who believe the OT and NT were inspired by YHWH and those who don't. It's faith and it's what makes me a Christian and others...not.

If hearing the Word of God brings about faith in God and your not sure that God inspired Christianity, why liken muslims to a faith you seem to not fully understand?

I'm just saying.....
Dee

Well said Dee. I like your signature line too.

Back to the original question.... If there is only one God instead of the 3,000 'gods' that people believe(d) in then Jews, Muslims and Christians are obviously all worshipping that same God. The answer to the question is therefore very simply that Allah is God is Jehova - or a dozen other names given to him in the bible.

The fact that no two thinking people believe exactly the same things and worship in exactly the same way does not mean that there are multiple gods, simply that people's beliefs are unreliable. That is self evident, just looking at this forum, but there are plenty of people happy to go on a killing spree for the God they believe in - often in the name of Christianity! Crusades, Cathars, Inquisition, Witches etc - it is still going on.

Perhaps the lesson of turning the other cheek is open to a different interpretation in some folks' theology?

 

[Drummer4Christ]

I don't reconcile them. I think others are wrong about God.

If they are wrong about God, then that only leaves one of three options:

1. They were deceived
2. They are being deceptive
3. Not the same God

You never responded to my question about oranges, by the way:

The Bible states that God so loved the world, He gave His only Son.

The Qur'an states that God is not a father, nor has a son.

That is a much bigger difference than "bitter/sour"

 

[Drummer4Christ]

Allah is the Arabic word for God. The Arabic Christians were using the term before the Muslims .

That further proves my point, even if it were true. If the Christian Arabs meant YHVH by saying Allah, then that means that "Allah" so loved the world, he gave his only son. As noted in the OP, the Qur'an clearly states that God (Allah) neither is a father, nor has a son.

 

[Drummer4Christ]

Except that most popular translations render several passages of the Bible as citing God's hatred of people (Esau and Israel, for example).

According to the Bible, the Jews are God's chosen people.

According to the Qur'an, God (Allah) tricked the Jews into believing that Jesus was crucified because the Jews schemed to crucify Jesus for being a prophet of Allah. So God (Allah), was also deceptive because Allah is the greatest of deceivers.

In the Bible, who is the greatest of deceivers?

We know that there is only one God and so, if Muslims are talking about God, they must be talking about the same one.

Is the worship of Baal the same as worshiping YHVH?

 

[stovebolts]

That further proves my point, even if it were true. If the Christian Arabs meant YHVH by saying Allah, then that means that "Allah" so loved the world, he gave his only son. As noted in the OP, the Qur'an clearly states that God (Allah) neither is a father, nor has a son.

First off, they never knew God as YHVH, so they wouldn't know him as YHVH. I thought we went over that?

If you break it down, the word God doesn't even derive from the Hebrews and was adopted into their language. The original word is Elohim and is used in the Hebrew texts to describe God, angels, judges and messengers.

As far as I know, Elohim has been translated as Allah much in the same manner that we've translated it God. Can we now argue that the God we serve is not the same Elohim Abram served?

According to the Qur'an, God (Allah) tricked the Jews into believing that Jesus was crucified because the Jews schemed to crucify Jesus for being a prophet of Allah. So God (Allah), was also deceptive because Allah is the greatest of deceivers.

I'd like to see that if you can post for us.

I"m still trying to wrap my mind around your statement "God (Allah) tricked the Jews into believing that Jesus was crucified because the Jews schemed to crucify Jesus for being a prophet of Allah."

Can you clarify that? Maybe word it differently?

 

[Drummer4Christ]

First off, they never knew God as YHVH, so they wouldn't know him as YHVH. I thought we went over that?

Adullam claimed that Christian Arabs were calling God "Allah" before Muslim Arabs. Even if that were true (which it is not, considering pagan Arabs were using the term well before the birth of Christ) Islam teaches that God is not a father, nor has a son. Why would Arab Muslims claim such a thing when the Bible (which pre-dates the Qur'an and, which Islam supposedly holds sacred) states that God is a Father, who gave His only Son?

I"m still trying to wrap my mind around your statement "God (Allah) tricked the Jews into believing that Jesus was crucified because the Jews schemed to crucify Jesus for being a prophet of Allah."

Can you clarify that? Maybe word it differently?

In the following excerpts of the Qur'an "they" refers to the "unbelievers" AKA People of the Book (Jews/Christians)


Surah 4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them

How do we know that Jesus didn't die?


Surah 3:54 And (the unbelievers) were deceptive and Allah too deceived, because the best of deceivers is Allah.

3:55 Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme

 

[Jam]

If they are wrong about God, then that only leaves one of three options:

1. They were deceived
2. They are being deceptive
3. Not the same God

Falsity does not necessarily imply deception... it is possible that they have been deceived or are being deceptive, and it is possible that they are referring to the same God, but it is also possible that they are referring to the same god but disagree on his attributes.

The Bible states that God so loved the world, He gave His only Son.

The Qur'an states that God is not a father, nor has a son.

That is a much bigger difference than "bitter/sour"

Aha! This is the subjective line about which I spoke earlier- you simply believe that the line at which we stop referring to entities as "the same" is much stricter than I believe it to be.

According to the Bible, the Jews are God's chosen people.

According to the Qur'an, God (Allah) tricked the Jews into believing that Jesus was crucified because the Jews schemed to crucify Jesus for being a prophet of Allah. So God (Allah), was also deceptive because Allah is the greatest of deceivers.

In the Bible, who is the greatest of deceivers?

Can you provide sura references for that (might be against the ToS actually, so obviously don't if it is)? I'm not convinced that it is indisputably true that the Qur'an says this.
EDIT: You posted the references 5minutes ago :D

Anyway, I don't disagree. God is not the "greatest of deceivers" according to the Bible.

Is the worship of Baal the same as worshiping YHVH?

The same? No. Were Baal's followers actually following the same God as the Israelies? I don't know- I'd be strongly inclined to say that the differences between the characteristics of YHWH and those attributed to Baal are enough to consider them separate beings... but, in truth, I do not know nearly enough about Baal and his disciples to comment on this.

 

[Drummer4Christ]

Aha! This is the subjective line about which I spoke earlier- you simply believe that the line at which we stop referring to entities as "the same" is much stricter than I believe it to be.

Please explain how John 3:16 is a matter of subjectivity. Either "God sent His only Son into the world" is an objective truth or not.

 

[Jam]

Please explain how John 3:16 is a matter of subjectivity. Either "God sent His only Son into the world" is an objective truth or not.

What has John 3:16 got to do with this?

Different people have different points at which they consider different descriptions of an entity to be describing different entities. This is the subjective line to which I refer.

 

[Drummer4Christ]

What has John 3:16 got to do with this?

The fact that it contradicts Surah 112

Different people have different points at which they consider different descriptions of an entity to be describing different entities. This is the subjective line to which I refer.

2John 2:22 states that he who denies the Father and the Son is a liar and an Antichrist.

That is an objective standard set by God.

 

[Jam]

The fact that it contradicts Surah 112

The relevance to my point being..?

2John 2:22 states that he who denies the Father and the Son is a liar and an Antichrist.

That is an objective standard set by God.

As I have explicitly stated multiple times now, I agree that there is an objective standard wrt salvation... but I'm not talking about that.

Look, when a Christian says that Allah and YHWH are the same God, they are not saying that Muslims are just as correct as Christians and so will receive salvation etc. etc. We are simply saying that the similarities in the descriptions, in our opinion, outweigh the differences such that we can consider the two doctrines different representations of the same God. One is correct and the other is not. The point at which we make a distinction between two separate entities and one entity with two separate descriptions varies between people and is therefore subjective.

 

[Drummer4Christ]

The relevance to my point being..?



As I have explicitly stated multiple times now, I agree that there is an objective standard wrt salvation... but I'm not talking about that.

Look, when a Christian says that Allah and YHWH are the same God, they are not saying that Muslims are just as correct as Christians and so will receive salvation etc. etc. We are simply saying that the similarities in the descriptions, in our opinion, outweigh the differences such that we can consider the two doctrines different representations of the same God. One is correct and the other is not. The point at which we make a distinction between two separate entities and one entity with two separate descriptions varies between people and is therefore subjective.

What similar attributes does Allah have with God?

 

[Jam]

What similar attributes does Allah have with God?

-omnipotent
-omniscient
-omnibenevolent
-omnipresent
-is the only God

These are the most important, I think... I'm sure I could list many smaller ones, though, such as His tendency to reveal Himself through scripture (much of which is the same as Judaism/Christianity, although they deny that our modern copies and translations are reliable) and prophets, His assured salvation to certain people (or groups thereof) etc. etc.

 

[Drummer4Christ]

-omnipotent
-omniscient
-omnibenevolent
-omnipresent
-is the only God

How do you know Allah contains these attributes? Edit: in other words, who/what testifies to these attributes?

His assured salvation to certain people (or groups thereof) etc. etc.

How is that salvation assured?

 

[Jam]

How do you know Allah contains these attributes? Edit: in other words, who/what testifies to these attributes?

Muslims in general describe Allah in that way. It is this general description of Allah by Muslims to which I refer- if other Islamic "denominations" reject some of these characteristics, then that probably would constitute a significant difference.

How is that salvation assured?

Sura 4:57 As for those who believe and do good deeds, We shall admit them into the Gardens graced with flowing streams and there they will remain forever. They will have pure spouses there, and We shall admit them into cool refreshing shade.

Perhaps "assured" was not the right word; but Muslims do believe that Allah has given them a set of "criteria" for salvation.

 

[Drummer4Christ]

Muslims in general describe Allah in that way. It is this general description of Allah by Muslims to which I refer- if other Islamic "denominations" reject some of these characteristics, then that probably would constitute a significant difference.

Yes, several sects of Islam differ over Allah's omnipresence. However, the issue isn't what Muslims believe but what the Qur'an teaches.

Is the Qur'an the divinely inspired word of God?

Sura 4:57 As for those who believe and do good deeds, We shall admit them into the Gardens graced with flowing streams and there they will remain forever. They will have pure spouses there, and We shall admit them into cool refreshing shade.

Perhaps "assured" was not the right word; but Muslims do believe that Allah has given them a set of "criteria" for salvation.

Correct, there is no assurance of salvation in Islam. The Sura you quoted shows that "good deeds" are a requirement to be saved. Muhammad himself wasn't sure if he would enter paradise.

 

[Jam]

Yes, several sects of Islam differ over Allah's omnipresence. However, the issue isn't what Muslims believe but what the Qur'an teaches.

Actually, I think it's probably what Muslims believe that the Qur'an teaches that it is important.

Is the Qur'an the divinely inspired word of God?

No.

Correct, there is no assurance of salvation in Islam. The Sura you quoted shows that "good deeds" are a requirement to be saved. Muhammad himself wasn't sure if he would enter paradise.

My apologies for my word usage... I am still convinced that we are arguing over the semantics of similarity, though.

 

[Drummer4Christ]

Actually, I think it's probably what Muslims believe that the Qur'an teaches that it is important.



No.



My apologies for my word usage... I am still convinced that we are arguing over the semantics of similarity, though.

Semantics or not. If the Qur'an is not the divinely inspired word of God, then how can we trust what it says about God?

 

[Jam]

If the Qur'an is not the divinely inspired word of God, then how can we trust what it says about God?

We can't: it is wrong about God.