Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Bible Study Who is Doing the Forgiving

newnature

Member
Who in the world are those involved in religion asking for forgiveness? From God! Therefore the assumption is, God’s not reconciled when they sin. In their mind they are separating themselves from God by their sin. Justification...Redemption...Propitiation...Remission...and Forbearance...all terms God wants people to acknowledge, to become familiar with, and to come to fully appreciate. Never make the mistake of thinking that these terms all mean the same thing. They do not. Each one has a distinct meaning all its own. Oftentimes, people will look at these terms and sort of lump them all together under a heading called forgiveness.


To many people are trying to Christianize the flesh. One should never drive the train from emotions, but there are denominations living in the caboose, driving the train from the emotion standpoint, not living it from the doctrinal standpoint. But think about this: Is forgiveness the same thing as being justified or having someone else’s righteousness freely attributed to their account? They are not one and the same. The human race’s sins have all been forgiven, but forgiveness alone does not mean the person having forgiveness is as perfectly and totally righteous as the one who is doing the forgiving.
 
Is there any forgiveness without repentance?
Example
Luke 17:3,4

Why should God forgive without repentance?

The prodigal son:
Luke 15:18-24
He confessed his sins, the father brought him in again.
His son was dead, and is alive again, he was lost and now is found.
 
Asking forgiveness of sin, and confession of sin are two different things. Often they are seen to be the same and so treated as such.
 
Is there any forgiveness without repentance?
Example
Luke 17:3,4

Why should God forgive without repentance?

The prodigal son:
Luke 15:18-24
He confessed his sins, the father brought him in again.
His son was dead, and is alive again, he was lost and now is found.

To many people obviously have behavioral characteristics in mind when they think of that word Christian, because they think forgiveness has to be paid for on the installment plan. But according to Paul we have all our forgiveness and we have it all upfront. The only reason God could say through Paul, “Grace and Peace be unto you” is because God’s son fully paid the price. Justification by grace through faith, what a marvelous thing God has done, and who would have thought of a salvation in the sense that God’s plan would call for him to join a person to his son, therefore, what belongs to the son would now belong to believing people who have been joined to the son.
 
Asking forgiveness of sin, and confession of sin are two different things. Often they are seen to be the same and so treated as such.

We all are satisfying the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and the pride of life, and we do it with everything we do. That is where we stand today, because we are all under sin, as Paul defines it. A person’s problem today, is not getting forgiveness for their sins, but that they need to learn about what God’s justification is all about. Sanctification can also be a source of great comfort and assurance because sanctification like justification is proof positive that once a person takes God at his word concerning the accomplishment of his son, that person remains in a sanctified identity before God forever, performance notwithstanding. We cannot lose by way of our poor performance what we never gained by way of our good performance.
 
We all are satisfying the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and the pride of life, and we do it with everything we do. That is where we stand today, because we are all under sin, as Paul defines it. A person’s problem today, is not getting forgiveness for their sins, but that they need to learn about what God’s justification is all about. Sanctification can also be a source of great comfort and assurance because sanctification like justification is proof positive that once a person takes God at his word concerning the accomplishment of his son, that person remains in a sanctified identity before God forever, performance notwithstanding. We cannot lose by way of our poor performance what we never gained by way of our good performance.
I respectfully disagree. We don't sin with everything we do. If we do, that is not where we should be. Just because our flesh is sinful, does not mean we should continue in it.

We should never think that we can earn forgiveness, but we should never feel because we are in right standing with God that sin cannot lead us away from Him.

Gods sanctification leads us from sin, never into it, and we should never justify sin by way of Gods justification.
 
To many people obviously have behavioral characteristics in mind when they think of that word Christian, because they think forgiveness has to be paid for on the installment plan. But according to Paul we have all our forgiveness and we have it all upfront. The only reason God could say through Paul, “Grace and Peace be unto you” is because God’s son fully paid the price. Justification by grace through faith, what a marvelous thing God has done, and who would have thought of a salvation in the sense that God’s plan would call for him to join a person to his son, therefore, what belongs to the son would now belong to believing people who have been joined to the son.
We don't have our forgiveness, God has it and imputes it on us. It's free to us, but it is not something in and of ourselves. It is Christ in us that cleans us on a continual basis - sanctification.
 
We don't have our forgiveness, God has it and imputes it on us. It's free to us, but it is not something in and of ourselves. It is Christ in us that cleans us on a continual basis - sanctification.

God has dealt with that problem of sin, and the issue with sanctification is not about sin, but about perfection. Paul told us how God perfected us, made us as equally righteous as God himself. God has set every believer apart by placing them into his son. Based upon the fact that we are already sanctified, already “IN” the Savior, there is now no condemnation for us. We can rejoice and we can give all the glory and the praise to God for the fact that even though that sinful nature is strapped onto our fleshly backs like a rotting corpse, God does not see us in our flesh from his judicial perspective. God does not relate to us on the basis of our performance in the flesh, but on the basis of our new identification “IN” his son, he views us in our glorified identity, he sees us as being joined to his son. “Therefore, if any man is in the Savior, he is a new creature; old things are passed away, behold all things are become new.” It is new identity!
 
God has dealt with that problem of sin, and the issue with sanctification is not about sin, but about perfection. Paul told us how God perfected us, made us as equally righteous as God himself. God has set every believer apart by placing them into his son. Based upon the fact that we are already sanctified, already “IN” the Savior, there is now no condemnation for us. We can rejoice and we can give all the glory and the praise to God for the fact that even though that sinful nature is strapped onto our fleshly backs like a rotting corpse, God does not see us in our flesh from his judicial perspective. God does not relate to us on the basis of our performance in the flesh, but on the basis of our new identification “IN” his son, he views us in our glorified identity, he sees us as being joined to his son. “Therefore, if any man is in the Savior, he is a new creature; old things are passed away, behold all things are become new.” It is new identity!
1 Thessalonians 4:1-8
1 Finally, then, brothers, we ask and urge you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us how you ought to walk and to please God, just as you are doing, that you do so more and more.
2 For you know what instructions we gave you through the Lord Jesus.
3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from sexual immorality;
4 that each one of you know how to control his own body in holiness and honor,
5 not in the passion of lust like the Gentiles who do not know God;
6 that no one transgress and wrong his brother in this matter, because the Lord is an avenger in all these things, as we told you beforehand and solemnly warned you.
7 For God has not called us for impurity, but in holiness.
8 Therefore whoever disregards this, disregards not man but God, who gives his Holy Spirit to you.

Sanctification is most definetly about sin.
 
I do agree we should always see ourselves in Christ, as God sees us. But that does not negate the effects of sin and our response to it.

Christ set us free from the slavery of sin. Part of faith is the aknowledgment of that, and because of that freedom God works in us through sanctification.

Paul declares himself that he had not reached, but pressed forward consistently - day by day. Christ said we were to take up our cross daily.

We have confidence through faith that what God began in us He will continue till the day Christ returns.
 
I do agree we should always see ourselves in Christ, as God sees us. But that does not negate the effects of sin and our response to it.

Christ set us free from the slavery of sin. Part of faith is the aknowledgment of that, and because of that freedom God works in us through sanctification.

Paul declares himself that he had not reached, but pressed forward consistently - day by day. Christ said we were to take up our cross daily.

We have confidence through faith that what God began in us He will continue till the day Christ returns.

The issue in eternity will be to which man are you related? Do you have your identity in the first Adam, or do you have your identity in the second Adam, Jesus. Nothing and no one can take a believers identity in the last Adam away from them, God accomplished that for the believer. Therefore, in light of that, a believer should bring their practical state into harmony with their identity in the last Adam. This is Paul’s admonition for every believer in this dispensation of grace. As sound doctrine is taken in and fully appreciated, believers who takes that doctrine in and appreciates it and applies it, begin to grow and mature in what they believe. And as believers begin to grow and to mature in what they believe, those believer’s mind is being transformed in the process.
 
Matthew 9:2 Some men brought to him a paralyzed man, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the man, “Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven.”

Looks like a 'yes' to me. :shrug
Is this the same event we find in John 5?
 
Matthew 9:2 Some men brought to him a paralyzed man, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the man, “Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven.”

Looks like a 'yes' to me. :shrug

Luke 5:20
And when He saw their faith.....He said they were forgiven.

They believed He was the Christ.
And if they believed, they knew He had the Authority to forgive..

Great testimony!
:salute
 
To many people obviously have behavioral characteristics in mind when they think of that word Christian, because they think forgiveness has to be paid for on the installment plan. But according to Paul we have all our forgiveness and we have it all upfront. The only reason God could say through Paul, “Grace and Peace be unto you” is because God’s son fully paid the price. Justification by grace through faith, what a marvelous thing God has done, and who would have thought of a salvation in the sense that God’s plan would call for him to join a person to his son, therefore, what belongs to the son would now belong to believing people who have been joined to the son.
1John1:9,10
IF we confess our sins , He is faithful and just to forgive...
If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar.....

Rom.3:25
.....for the remission of sins that are past.....
 
1John1:9,10
IF we confess our sins , He is faithful and just to forgive...
If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar.....

Rom.3:25
.....for the remission of sins that are past.....

hello dianegcook, dirtfarmer here

I have ask before and no one has, can, or will answer: Is 1 John1:9 applicable to those that are in Christ by the new birth? If Christ paid for the sin of the whole world and all our sins, past, present, and future, have been imputed to Christ and Christ's righteousness has been imputed to all that are in the body of Christ, what unrighteousness still applies to the believer that we need cleansing from?
2 Corinthians 5:21 "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."
 
dirtfarmer

1 John 1:19 is indeed applicable to those in Christ, and only those in Christ - new birth on.

The unrighteousness(sin) that it is applicable to is that which happens as we walk in our daily lives. We should never think that because we are a new creation that the old man(old way of thinking that leads us to sin sometimes) does not effect our new man(the new way of thinking that leads us in righteousness).

When understanding what Jesus did in His sacrifice we need to look no further than the examples given to us in the Old Testament. The New Testament sheds light on this so we can clearly see what Christ did and who He is. The book of Hebrews is one of the best compact collections of the purpose of Christ - His sacrifice and His work before the Father in heaven.

We are being conformed, and transformed, day by day. The new birth started this transformation, but just as a child has to grow into maturity - not being mature when born - so we must also grow. The new birth created a new heart in man. We know this heart replaced our old dead heart. Our old dead heart did not care for the things of God and would not submit to the things of God. The heart of man is where thoughts meet actions and produce fruit(works).

2 Corinthians 3:18
And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.


Romans 12:1-2
I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.


In the Old Testament, under the old covenant, the people of God had to come to the temple and give offerings for sin. Also, the high priest at the temple would offer up sacrifices for not only himself, but those of the people. This had to be done continually, because people continually sinned. Whenever there is sin, God demands a sacrifice - the shedding of blood. We see this from the very beginning when an animal had to be killed in order to have clothing made for Adam and Eve. But we see the specifics of it, the details of why and how, when Moses brought out the people and lead them to the mountain before God.

Hebrews 9:19-22
For when every commandment of the law had been declared by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, saying, “This is the blood of the covenant that God commanded for you.” And in the same way he sprinkled with the blood both the tent and all the vessels used in worship. Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.


When the new covenant was made Jesus became the perfect sacrifice. Not only that, He became our High Priest. He shed His blood, once for all, for ALL sin. He is in heaven now, before God, continually making intersession for us - mediating between us and God.

Before our new birth we did not have this mediation between us and God. But after the new birth, the Spirit of God communicates between us and Christ, and then Christ with God. However, just because the perfect sacrifice was made, and no more blood is needed to be shed for sin, does not mean sin is not dealt with. The people of the old covenant knew that God would forgive their sins by the sacrifice and shedding of blood before Him, but they did not suppose that they did not have to come to God to accept that forgiveness. They knew the high priest would offer sacrifices for the sins of the people, but they did not suppose that it just "automatically" covered theirs without approaching God with their offerings.

I think that many believers feel that because Christ was the perfect sacrifice, shedding His blood once for all, that it "automatically" covers their sin - regardless of their midset. However, that does not mean that when a believer commits a sin that they are "automatically" outside of Gods covering. That is not the case any more than if the people of the old covenant, who were on their way to the temple, died on the way there, and then could not present their offering. God see's the heart, and those in Christ have Christ to make intersession for them.

That does not mean that sin in a believers life goes unchecked. Part of our transformation into His image is the constant removal of sin that does happen. That sin does not only effect a believers flesh, but also their mind.

The confession that John talks about it 1 John 1:19 is our acknowledgement of the sin that happens in our lives. When we confess that sin, we are agreeing with the Spirit that it is wrong and needs removed from our lives. We know that God only accepts blood for the forgiveness of sins, so when we confess them Christ washes them from us - therefore continuing the transformation process. If we don't confess them, then they do effect our lives, and we go against the work of the Spirit in our lives. We oppose the Spirit when confession is not made.

We cannot think that grace "automatically" makes sin disappear, or that grace "automatically" makes sin not effect a believers heart. We cannot think that grace automatically produces righteousness without our knowing it. We must allow God to work in us, through His Spirit, knowing that when we sin the Mediator of the new covenant makes intercession.

The entire chapter of Romans 6 covers this presenting of ourselves before God. Just because we have a new heart that desires God does not mean that the old way of thinking, our old mind, "automatically" presents ourselves. When we confess our sins, we are presenting ourselves before God to have His Spirit remove that sin in our life. Sin has to be removed in ANY persons life in order for God to accept them. For unbelievers that can never happen. For believers it can when we confess them.



 
hello dianegcook, dirtfarmer here

I have ask before and no one has, can, or will answer: Is 1 John1:9 applicable to those that are in Christ by the new birth? If Christ paid for the sin of the whole world and all our sins, past, present, and future, have been imputed to Christ and Christ's righteousness has been imputed to all that are in the body of Christ, what unrighteousness still applies to the believer that we need cleansing from?
2 Corinthians 5:21 "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

1 John 1:9 - “sins” is a Double Metonymy, a figure of speech that replaces the name of a thing with the name of something else with which it is closely associated. A Figure of speech relates to the form in which the words are used. It consists in the fact that a word or words are used out of their ordinary sense, or place, or manner, for the purpose of attracting our attention to what is thus said. A Figure of speech is a designed and legitimate departure from the laws of language, in order to emphasize what is said.

John was writing to the Israelites, but to the necessity of that confession for the Israelites. Ezekiel 36:26-28, when will this national sanctification come to fruition? When Israel is willing to accept Jesus as their messiah and admit they swore falsely when they entered into a covenant with God vowing they could merit a righteous standing before him through their performance.

The confession was indeed called for. It was not about confessing the three lies on Monday and the bad attitude on Wednesday, and the idolatrous thinking on Friday, it was not about any of that. It was not an option testimony in the days of Jesus, it was a requirement for the remission of sins. It was the way people could be identified with the faith associated with the confession of Leviticus 26:40.

Israel was continually being called upon to repent, to change their thinking. John called upon the nation to repent, the 12 called upon Israel to repent, and Jesus called upon the nation to repent, God wanted them to change their thinking about the source of their righteousness and the identity of their Messiah.
 
dirtfarmer

1 John 1:19 is indeed applicable to those in Christ, and only those in Christ - new birth on.

The unrighteousness(sin) that it is applicable to is that which happens as we walk in our daily lives. We should never think that because we are a new creation that the old man(old way of thinking that leads us to sin sometimes) does not effect our new man(the new way of thinking that leads us in righteousness).

When understanding what Jesus did in His sacrifice we need to look no further than the examples given to us in the Old Testament. The New Testament sheds light on this so we can clearly see what Christ did and who He is. The book of Hebrews is one of the best compact collections of the purpose of Christ - His sacrifice and His work before the Father in heaven.

We are being conformed, and transformed, day by day. The new birth started this transformation, but just as a child has to grow into maturity - not being mature when born - so we must also grow. The new birth created a new heart in man. We know this heart replaced our old dead heart. Our old dead heart did not care for the things of God and would not submit to the things of God. The heart of man is where thoughts meet actions and produce fruit(works).

2 Corinthians 3:18
And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.


Romans 12:1-2
I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.


In the Old Testament, under the old covenant, the people of God had to come to the temple and give offerings for sin. Also, the high priest at the temple would offer up sacrifices for not only himself, but those of the people. This had to be done continually, because people continually sinned. Whenever there is sin, God demands a sacrifice - the shedding of blood. We see this from the very beginning when an animal had to be killed in order to have clothing made for Adam and Eve. But we see the specifics of it, the details of why and how, when Moses brought out the people and lead them to the mountain before God.

Hebrews 9:19-22
For when every commandment of the law had been declared by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, saying, “This is the blood of the covenant that God commanded for you.” And in the same way he sprinkled with the blood both the tent and all the vessels used in worship. Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.


When the new covenant was made Jesus became the perfect sacrifice. Not only that, He became our High Priest. He shed His blood, once for all, for ALL sin. He is in heaven now, before God, continually making intersession for us - mediating between us and God.

Before our new birth we did not have this mediation between us and God. But after the new birth, the Spirit of God communicates between us and Christ, and then Christ with God. However, just because the perfect sacrifice was made, and no more blood is needed to be shed for sin, does not mean sin is not dealt with. The people of the old covenant knew that God would forgive their sins by the sacrifice and shedding of blood before Him, but they did not suppose that they did not have to come to God to accept that forgiveness. They knew the high priest would offer sacrifices for the sins of the people, but they did not suppose that it just "automatically" covered theirs without approaching God with their offerings.

I think that many believers feel that because Christ was the perfect sacrifice, shedding His blood once for all, that it "automatically" covers their sin - regardless of their midset. However, that does not mean that when a believer commits a sin that they are "automatically" outside of Gods covering. That is not the case any more than if the people of the old covenant, who were on their way to the temple, died on the way there, and then could not present their offering. God see's the heart, and those in Christ have Christ to make intersession for them.

That does not mean that sin in a believers life goes unchecked. Part of our transformation into His image is the constant removal of sin that does happen. That sin does not only effect a believers flesh, but also their mind.

The confession that John talks about it 1 John 1:19 is our acknowledgement of the sin that happens in our lives. When we confess that sin, we are agreeing with the Spirit that it is wrong and needs removed from our lives. We know that God only accepts blood for the forgiveness of sins, so when we confess them Christ washes them from us - therefore continuing the transformation process. If we don't confess them, then they do effect our lives, and we go against the work of the Spirit in our lives. We oppose the Spirit when confession is not made.

We cannot think that grace "automatically" makes sin disappear, or that grace "automatically" makes sin not effect a believers heart. We cannot think that grace automatically produces righteousness without our knowing it. We must allow God to work in us, through His Spirit, knowing that when we sin the Mediator of the new covenant makes intercession.

The entire chapter of Romans 6 covers this presenting of ourselves before God. Just because we have a new heart that desires God does not mean that the old way of thinking, our old mind, "automatically" presents ourselves. When we confess our sins, we are presenting ourselves before God to have His Spirit remove that sin in our life. Sin has to be removed in ANY persons life in order for God to accept them. For unbelievers that can never happen. For believers it can when we confess them.



It is a very simple thing, simple enough for a little child to understand it: Jesus died for your sins! That is a whole lot better to say to a child, rather than “Ask him into your heart” or “Pray that he will save you” or “Repeat this prayer” or “Come down front.” All those things have been added by religion. Remember, we were given our righteous standing as a free gift, it is a grace gift given by God, and we receive it the instant we place our faith in Jesus having resolved God’s justice for our sins, when he died for those sins. This gift decree of righteousness comes totally apart from any and all human promise, any or all human performance or any or all human production, no human merit of people whatsoever for this free gift. God will never consider people’s works as a payment for God’s justifying declaration.

To say “your works” have anything at all to do with God’s gift declaration of righteousness is to slap the giver in the face. The only way a person can be counted righteous, (justified) when unrighteousness is the reality given the sin nature we have inherited from Adam, is for that person to be joined to God’s son. The only thing God is asking you to believe to be placed into his son, is to take God at his word, concerning what his son did where your sins are concerned. If you are asking God to forgive you for your sins, what are you saying you believe about what Jesus accomplished where those sins are concerned?
 
Back
Top