Who is Greater....?

[Georges]

Who is Greater, Jesus or God?

Who would Jesus have said...he (himself) or God?

 

[thessalonian]

Your post doesn't encapsulate the trinitarian view and so I hope you get few answers. Jesus is God. The Father is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. They are persons in the trinity. Yet the Trinity is ONE GOD! There is no such thing as a lesser God. Your question is loaded as well. I am sure by design.

 

[Georges]

Your post doesn't encapsulate the trinitarian view and so I hope you get few answers.

Sure it does......I just left out the HS because I'm not concerned with that....

Jesus is God. The Father is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. They are persons in the trinity. Yet the Trinity is ONE GOD!

This poll has nothing to do with the trinity....it's a simple question...Who is Greater, Jesus or God?

There is no such thing as a lesser God.

Yes there is....by the Hebrew definition......Jesus himself stated that.

Your question is loaded as well. I am sure by design.

Of course it is loaded.....so what? Makes you think doesn't it?

Thess....I'm just talking about the Jesus personality and the God personality.....what harm in debating that?

Thess...you didn't answer the 2 question's in the body of the first post...

 

[thessalonian]

That's because they are questions not based on the truth of who God is and therefore are invalid. They are asked from your perspective of who Jesus is. I will not answer them because you will naturally distort my answer to your thinking processes.

 

[Heidi]

Your post doesn't encapsulate the trinitarian view and so I hope you get few answers. Jesus is God. The Father is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. They are persons in the trinity. Yet the Trinity is ONE GOD! There is no such thing as a lesser God. Your question is loaded as well. I am sure by design.

Jesus said; "For the Father is greater than I." So I'll agree with Jesus over you. All you need to do is read and believe the bible instead of making up your own. It's really quite simple.

 

[WMD]

Jesus said; "For the Father is greater than I." So I'll agree with Jesus over you. All you need to do is read and believe the bible instead of making up your own. It's really quite simple.

Yes it is very clear what the Bible says on this... it is so clear in fact that it raises the question of why one would have a poll about a question that is so clear....

Perhaps, as it was said, to load the answers and distort peoples responses in order to cultivate arguments?

It seems like Georges does that every once in a while.

 

[Heidi]

Jesus said; "For the Father is greater than I." So I'll agree with Jesus over you. All you need to do is read and believe the bible instead of making up your own. It's really quite simple.

Yes it is very clear what the Bible says on this... it is so clear in fact that it raises the question of why one would have a poll about a question that is so clear....

Perhaps, as it was said, to load the answers and distort peoples responses in order to cultivate arguments?

It seems like Georges does that every once in a while.

Again, the answer is simple. Many, if not most, Christians either haven't read the bible or they don't believe all of scripture. Jesus said; "The Father is greater than I." End of story.

Jesus also said all we need is the faith of a child. Children don't analyze, distort, or twist. They just believe.

 

[Georges]

That's because they are questions not based on the truth of who God is and therefore are invalid. They are asked from your perspective of who Jesus is. I will not answer them because you will naturally distort my answer to your thinking processes.

I think the question IS based on who God is, and who Christ is......

Did God ever equate himself or call Christ equal to him?

Did Christ ever equate himself or say that God was equal to him?

The question as Heidi was kind enough to provide the verse for is asked from a neutral point of view.

and Thess....no answer is an answer......

I think pride may keep you from answering....I hope not....Please don't make it a personal thing.....honestly look at the questions as they are.

 

[Georges]

Jesus said; "For the Father is greater than I." So I'll agree with Jesus over you. All you need to do is read and believe the bible instead of making up your own. It's really quite simple.

Yes it is very clear what the Bible says on this... it is so clear in fact that it raises the question of why one would have a poll about a question that is so clear....

The question and answer is self evident......no coequal trinity....It's no big secret that I'm a former trinitarian....the poll was to see if there was any others....and to debate. I mean, hey, I was a trinitarian believer, now not....but if the evidence can swing me back....so be it.

Perhaps, as it was said, to load the answers and distort peoples responses in order to cultivate arguments?

It seems like Georges does that every once in a while.

And that is bad because.........? I don't distort people's answers to fit my means, that is an inaccurate statement :-? .....I may present questions that direct people to an end I want them to reach...I admit that...but don't teachers do that daily in school? I learn and perhaps others learn....If I form my theology based on arguments back and forth on the forum, so what?...If someone proves me wrong, great....I accept it and rethink where I was in err and move on....

 

[belovedwolfofgod]

54: Jesus answered, "If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing; it is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say that he is your God. 55: But you have not known him; I know him. If I said, I do not know him, I should be a liar like you; but I do know him and I keep his word. 56: Your father Abraham rejoiced that he was to see my day; he saw it and was glad." 57: The Jews then said to him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?" 58: Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." John 8

Jesus did not refer to himself in past tense. There is no, I was. It is I AM. It is captilized to signify that it is God and second, simply the way the verb is shows that he is eternal. Not gonna be, not was, just is. God is like that. Just is.

Now, as for how Jesus can be God...

God is. Now, Jesus being the Word of God is basically the idea formed by God. There are many things to represent this. First of all, there is the idea of sonship of the Word. Sons are begotten. That is why we say Jesus is the only begotten son of God. The rest of us are adopted. Now, when you beget something, it is of the same substance. Sheep beget sheep. Men beget men. Therefore God begets God. However, there is only ONE God, as is shown in the scriptures. So, this cannot be a second God.

The scriptures also indicate that everything was created through the Word. The Father created through the Word. Now, the word is like a concept in God. It is a thought. It is real because when God thinks, it is created. So God thought and it was the Word. However, God has always thought so the Word has always existed. Then the Word was made flesh. In this respect, God is Father because he created the thought and Son because the thought is of his substance and He is the only one of his substance. When you think, your thoughts are not distinct entities within you. You can exercise your thought and create the thing or situation (tho not the same way as God can create). The thought is part of you. Its expressed in words. The Word of God. That manifestation of an intellectual Being. One in substance. Though the thought is subservient, not if substance, but in relation. Jesus says that he is subject to his Father. Well, yes, that is true. However, it is a relational position. And the Father loved his Thought and all that he created. That manifestation of the Love is the Holy Spirit. It exists between the Father and Son and is yet consubtantial with the Father and Son because it proceeds from the Father and Son, but only exists because there is a Father and a Son.

Barebones explanation...

 

[thessalonian]

The question as Heidi was kind enough to provide the verse for is asked from a neutral point of view.

and Thess....no answer is an answer......

I think pride may keep you from answering....I hope not....Please don't make it a personal thing.....honestly look at the questions as they are.

No, you may misconstrue it that way if you like but you will only be deceiving yourself. And no, it is not pride. I've been through this question before. I will post verses and you will "trump" them by your own thinking and round and round we will go. I simply don't feel like participating in your game. Jesus is God. There are no lesser God's and greater God's. There is one God. I know that drives you crazy because you can't wrap your limited human mind around him and create him for yourself. But that's the way it is.

 

[belovedwolfofgod]

well, its an understanding that I need to own better... so I'll play for a little bit.

 

[thessalonian]

Heb.2
[7] Thou didst make him for a little while lower than the angels,
thou hast crowned him with glory and honor,

[9] But we see Jesus, who for a little while was made lower than the angels, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for every one.

 

[Georges]

54: Jesus answered, "If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing; it is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say that he is your God. 55: But you have not known him; I know him. If I said, I do not know him, I should be a liar like you; but I do know him and I keep his word. 56: Your father Abraham rejoiced that he was to see my day; he saw it and was glad." 57: The Jews then said to him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?" 58: Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." John 8

Jesus did not refer to himself in past tense. There is no, I was. It is I AM. It is captilized to signify that it is God and second, simply the way the verb is shows that he is eternal. Not gonna be, not was, just is. God is like that. Just is.

This agrees perfectly with Jewish thought on "The word", or when used in the Targums commenting on God's Agent, "The Memra", and how it is God according to the Jewish "Law of Agency".

Now, as for how Jesus can be God...

God is. Now, Jesus being the Word of God is basically the idea formed by God. There are many things to represent this. First of all, there is the idea of sonship of the Word. Sons are begotten.

Agreed....According to Rabbinic's Messiah (or the Spirit of Messiah) was created (or begotten) before the world......

That is why we say Jesus is the only begotten son of God. The rest of us are adopted.

I will submit that Jesus was adopted by God, when the Spirit of God (that is the Messiah) descended in bodily form and rested on Jesus...making him The Son of God...as opposed to the rest of us who are "sons of God".

Now, when you beget something, it is of the same substance. Sheep beget sheep. Men beget men. Therefore God begets God. However, there is only ONE God, as is shown in the scriptures. So, this cannot be a second God.

As you say and rightly so...there is One God.....therefore Jesus can't be God. He can legally, through the Law of Agency, be seen as God. And begotten....doesn't necessarily mean "birthed from", it can simply me "bought forth", or caused to bring forth....as in God caused Jesus to be bought forth (as in born).

The scriptures also indicate that everything was created through the Word. The Father created through the Word. Now, the word is like a concept in God. It is a thought. It is real because when God thinks, it is created. So God thought and it was the Word.

Agreed....that doesn't mean that it is GOD though.....As I had stated...the Memra in Judaism is God's creative word....www.jewishencyclopedia.com article on the Memra explains all that....read it, it's very good....see how many descriptive actions the Memra performs, and compare it to Jesus...it is amazing.

However, God has always thought so the Word has always existed.

Not always...but certainly before the world was created.

Then the Word was made flesh.

The Memra, God's OT representative, was made flesh....

In this respect, God is Father because he created the thought and Son because the thought is of his substance and He is the only one of his substance.

No where in the Bible does it say that...that's gnosticism introduced into Judaism. The proof is Jesus wasn't God (in Agency) until the baptism, and God's personal confirmation that Jesus was his Agent.

When you think, your thoughts are not distinct entities within you.

True.....they are not...they are my thoughts....

You can exercise your thought and create the thing or situation (tho not the same way as God can create).

We do not have the ability to create by will ourselves, but we can employ agents to create for us....of course God does on a grander scale.

The thought is part of you. Its expressed in words.

True.....

The Word of God. That manifestation of an intellectual Being.

I will agree with that....an Agent of God with intelligence, able to communicate.

One in substance.

Nowhere to be found in the Bible......made up by gnostic Christians....Athanasius championed that, and he was excommunicated.

Though the thought is subservient, not if substance, but in relation.

Jesus having the mind of God as God's chosen Agent...as given to him at His Baptism by God's Holy Spirit...that Spirit as described in Isa 11:2, was subservient.

Jesus says that he is subject to his Father. Well, yes, that is true. However, it is a relational position.

Yes, it is.....

And the Father loved his Thought and all that he created.

I'm not sure of God loved the Memra....He did love the preexistent Messiah and he did love Jesus, who was the Human Agent of God on Earth.

That manifestation of the Love is the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit of God is described in Isa. 11:2....if you get a description of Love from those descriptive features of the Spirit....kudo's. I will agree that God so loved Jesus that he gave him His (God's) Holy Spirit, enabling him (Jesus) to do God's Will (through Agency) on earth.

It exists between the Father and Son and is yet consubtantial with the Father and Son because it proceeds from the Father and Son, but only exists because there is a Father and a Son.

Given by the Father, shared by the Son, and as a result of the Law of Agency, the Spirit is given to whom the Father and Son (through Agency) choose.


Barebones explanation...

Appreciate the explanation .......fun to debate the points...

 

[Georges]

The question as Heidi was kind enough to provide the verse for is asked from a neutral point of view.

and Thess....no answer is an answer......

I think pride may keep you from answering....I hope not....Please don't make it a personal thing.....honestly look at the questions as they are.

No, you may misconstrue it that way if you like but you will only be deceiving yourself. And no, it is not pride. I've been through this question before. I will post verses and you will "trump" them by your own thinking and round and round we will go. I simply don't feel like participating in your game.

Thess....you are participating....... :angel:

Jesus is God.

Agreed...According to the Jewish Law of Agency.....

There are no lesser God's and greater God's.

There are no greater God's than YHVH.....there are lesser god's, as Jesus himself suggested....

There is one God. I know that drives you crazy because you can't wrap your limited human mind around him and create him for yourself.

I agree...one God....he ain't "Sybil", he don't have 3, 6, or 18 personalities.

But that's the way it is.

 

[Georges]

Heb.2
[7] Thou didst make him for a little while lower than the angels,
thou hast crowned him with glory and honor,

God made himself lower than the Angels?......Hmmmm. Now, I can accept that Jesus the man (and God's human Agent), was made lower (phyically) than the Angels...as all men are.

[9] But we see Jesus, who for a little while was made lower than the angels, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for every one.

Yes, God's OT representative "The Memra" who created the angels and all things was made man....and as God's human Agent towards mankind, Jesus was made physically lower than the angels...

Since you are still participating.....

And the verses indicate that Jesus is not as great as God, unless the angels are greater than God....

 

[thessalonian]

Heb.2
[7] Thou didst make him for a little while lower than the angels,
thou hast crowned him with glory and honor,

God made himself lower than the Angels?......Hmmmm. Now, I can accept that Jesus the man (and God's human Agent), was made lower (phyically) than the Angels...as all men are.

[9] But we see Jesus, who for a little while was made lower than the angels, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for every one.

Yes, God's OT representative "The Memra" who created the angels and all things was made man....and as God's human Agent towards mankind, Jesus was made physically lower than the angels...

Since you are still participating.....

And the verses indicate that Jesus is not as great as God, unless the angels are greater than God....

Jesus was for a little while made lower than the angels. He no longer is. We have so many people going off on different directions on this board, each thinking they are the ones with the Holy Spirit, smarter than the rest, able to figure it out for themselves. Submitting the Bible to their own thinking.

 

[Georges]

Heb.2
[7] Thou didst make him for a little while lower than the angels,
thou hast crowned him with glory and honor,

God made himself lower than the Angels?......Hmmmm. Now, I can accept that Jesus the man (and God's human Agent), was made lower (phyically) than the Angels...as all men are.

[9] But we see Jesus, who for a little while was made lower than the angels, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for every one.

Yes, God's OT representative "The Memra" who created the angels and all things was made man....and as God's human Agent towards mankind, Jesus was made physically lower than the angels...

Since you are still participating.....

And the verses indicate that Jesus is not as great as God, unless the angels are greater than God....

Jesus was for a little while made lower than the angels. He no longer is.

It can also be interpreted as "for a little while he was made lower than the angels"....as being that for 33 years, starting at his birth (a short time, a "little while" in regard to eternity) that he was made, not necessarily meaning God came down to earth in the form of a man for a little while...of course upon his resurrection, sits at the right hand of God. Still subserviant.

We have so many people going off on different directions on this board, each thinking they are the ones with the Holy Spirit, smarter than the rest, able to figure it out for themselves.

I've never claimed that....you are doing that just fine for me...

Thess, are you a bitter man?

Submitting the Bible to their own thinking.

Hey, works for me.....

 

[thessalonian]

Thess, are you a bitter man?

I know your having a hard time swalling the medice, but no, I'm not. I'm humored by all these nonsensical little jabs my detractors, who don't know me, come up with. Thanks Georgie.

 

[Georges]

Thess, are you a bitter man?

I know your having a hard time swalling the medice, but no, I'm not. I'm humored by all these nonsensical little jabs my detractors, who don't know me, come up with. Thanks Georgie.

Just trying to keep you amused.....

Thess, I'm not a detractor of yours, an antagonist maybe :D ....you just seem bitter to me....with all due respect. Of course I don't know you personally, but I do read your posts (in response to me and to others) and there are times when you appear arrogant or bitter....if not, my apologies.