Who is the Devil

[Benoni]

Let us stop looking at the doctrines of the past and look what God’s Word has to say. Tradition tells us that Satan is Lucifer. Let me ask you one simple question? How can Satan be a arch angel; in his beginning seeing God’s Word declares he was a liar from his beginning?
We give Satan to much power; yes Satan is the god of the earth, BUT God is the God of all things including the earth.

I have posted this in other thread but thought it would be a good topic.

Let us look a little closer with eyes wide open?

Is 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven O Lucifer, son of the morning!------13 For thou hast said in thine heart (mind) I will ascend into heaven, ---- 14 I will belike the most High, 15 yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit, -----16----Is this the MAN that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms------.

There is no reference to Satan in this verse, it is all assumption based on man's religious tradition;

Now the religious system teaches that Ez 28:13 and Is 14:12 are speaking of Satan and the KJ Bible is the only version that uses the word Lucifer. It is not even a Hebrew word.

Moffat translation says "What a fall from heaven O Shining star of the dawns" Rotherham"How hast thou fallen from heaven, O shining One, son of the dawn!"Amplified "how are you fallen from heaven O light-bearer and day star, son of the morning!"

2 Pet 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts.

Rev 22:16 I JESUS have sent mine angel to testify unto you these thing sin the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

The word Lucifer in the Strong's Concordance says it is a title applied to the king of Babylon. The word itself means the morning star. The word MAN means a mortal, an individual, a male person. I could rest my case on just that one verse alone, but why would Peter under the direction of the Holy Spirit compare Jesus as the Day star with Lucifer the Devil?

It is the erroneous translation of the KJ that infers such. Lucifer was never an Arc Angel, he was a MAN. (Satan is a spirit.)

Is14:15 says he was brought down to hell, (sheol, place of the dead) the side of the pit. Satan is never thrown in the grave because he has no part in a natural death as he is a spiritual being. Only MAN dies and is placed in a grave. Evil spirits only go to a place called Tartarus and Satan the high ranking one is sent to the lake of fire.( which is not hell)

Even the Jews knew the true name of Satan. They called him Beelzebub. Satan was created a tool

Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his works; and I have created the waster to destroy. (See God created Satan)

Jesus in Jn 8:44 Said Ye are of your father, the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the BEGINNING and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it. John writes in

1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the BEGINNING. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil..

I cannot see that Satan had two beginnings. The word beginning in the Greek means beginning. Not first he was an angel, second he was a murder and liar. Which one was he? Do we take the RCC's translation or do we take the correct translation of the word Lucifer?

Satan was full of darkness. God is not working on a plan B. He has had a plan and a purpose from the beginning and Satan was a part of that plan. Simply a tool. Never an angel.

This is my stand and I feel that you have a choice to believe the word of God or to accept a false doctrine made up in the minds of religious men.

 

[follower of Christ]

And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
(Luke 10:18 KJV)

Little hint friend...MAN wasnt created sinning, but chose to sin and was cast out of the garden.
An angel doing the same exact thing isnt that remarkable or unbelievable.
This being we call 'Satan' WAS cast down from heaven.

Even the Jews knew the true name of Satan. They called him Beelzebub. Satan was created a tool

Again, the Jews were BLINDED to the truth in the OT.
Their understanding of scriptures and the intent therein CANNOT BE TRUSTED !

and not as Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the end of what was passing away. But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is removed in Christ. But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. But whenever one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
(2 Corinthians 3:13-16 EMTV)

 

[Free]

In addition to Luke 10:18:

Rev 12:7-9, "7 Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, 8 but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world, he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him."

 

[Benoni]

So explain to me how Satan has two beginnings?

And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
(Luke 10:18 KJV)

Little hint friend...MAN wasnt created sinning, but chose to sin and was cast out of the garden.
An angel doing the same exact thing isnt that remarkable or unbelievable.
This being we call 'Satan' WAS cast down from heaven.

[quote:16vwizvj]Even the Jews knew the true name of Satan. They called him Beelzebub. Satan was created a tool

Again, the Jews were BLINDED to the truth in the OT.
Their understanding of scriptures and the intent therein CANNOT BE TRUSTED !

and not as Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the end of what was passing away. But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is removed in Christ. But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. But whenever one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
(2 Corinthians 3:13-16 EMTV)

[/quote:16vwizvj]

 

[Benoni]

So what is your point.

How does this verse link Lucifer and Satan? It is speaking of Satan and his angel's.

The word angel simply means messenger; many time there are heavenly messengers as well as in some cases earthy messenger, you must weigh each verse closely.

NT:32

aggelos (ang'-el-os); from aggello [probably derived from NT:71; compare NT:34] (to bring tidings); a messenger; especially an "angel"; by implication, a pastor:

This was not a translation from the Greek, but instead the transliteration took the Greek word “aggelos†and concocted the word angel which simply means messenger.

Yes Satan fought the Arch Angel Michael; but if you notice Satan was referred to as Satan, the devil or the dragon never and arch angel or Lucifer.

In addition to Luke 10:18:

Rev 12:7-9, "7 Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, 8 but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world, he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him."

 

[Free]

So what is your point.

How does this verse link Lucifer and Satan? It is speaking of Satan and his angel's.

I guess I was thinking your post was about something else because of what you state at the end, which I was addressing: "Satan was full of darkness. God is not working on a plan B. He has had a plan and a purpose from the beginning and Satan was a part of that plan. Simply a tool. Never an angel."

If you're saying that Satan was never an angel, you're wrong. If you're talking about Lucifer, then you need to correct your statements above.

 

[Orion]

God’s Word declares he was a liar from his beginning

If you must see every word of the bible as literal and infallible, then you must follow that to say that IF Satan was "a liar from his beginning", then it must be that God created him to BE so,. . . . . thus, a tool. That being the case, it opens a HUGE can of worms.

 

[whirlwind]

Let us stop looking at the doctrines of the past and look what God’s Word has to say. Tradition tells us that Satan is Lucifer. Let me ask you one simple question? How can Satan be a arch angel; in his beginning seeing God’s Word declares he was a liar from his beginning?
We give Satan to much power; yes Satan is the god of the earth, BUT God is the God of all things including the earth.

Notice in the following verses, in the same chapter, God refers to the "prince of Tyrus" and to the "king of Tyrus." This is the same entity (Satan) being written of.....

Ezekiel 28:1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying, "Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, 'Thus saith the Lord GOD; 'Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, 'I am a GOD, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas;' yet thou art a man, and not GOD, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

28:12-13 "Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, 'Thus saith the Lord GOD; 'Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God: every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

28:14-15 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou was upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou was perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

In the previous age, before his rebellion, Satan was loved by God and he was "the anointed cherub." He got too big for his britches and the king was demoted to prince. Notice that he was "created," not born and that he walked in Eden and heaven. This is no ordinary man.

I cannot see that Satan had two beginnings. The word beginning in the Greek means beginning. Not first he was an angel, second he was a murder and liar. Which one was he? Do we take the RCC's translation or do we take the correct translation of the word Lucifer?

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

It isn't that it was Satan's beginning but the "from the beginning" was the beginning of this age.

 

[Bubba]

God’s Word declares he was a liar from his beginning

If you must see every word of the bible as literal and infallible, then you must follow that to say that IF Satan was "a liar from his beginning", then it must be that God created him to BE so,. . . . . thus, a tool. That being the case, it opens a HUGE can of worms.

God uses evil beings throughout Scripture, why would one be surprised that Satan from the beginning was an instrument of evil? Especially in light of Scripture like Isaiah 45:7. The important issue is that God in the final outcome has used evil as a way to promote a contrast of that which is moral and good for the benefit of creation.
Grace, Bubba

 

[Benoni]

There is no reference to Satan here. The king of Tyrus is a man, Satan is a spirit.

Satan cannot have two beginnings. God's Word not my opioion declares that God created Satan as a liar, a murderer from his beginning;

Religion makes Satan and Angel.

Satan can only have one beginning.

You all give Satan far too much power, Satan is not a fallen arch angel He has always been a murderer and a liar.

Let us stop looking at the doctrines of the past and look what God’s Word has to say. Tradition tells us that Satan is Lucifer. Let me ask you one simple question? How can Satan be a arch angel; in his beginning seeing God’s Word declares he was a liar from his beginning?
We give Satan to much power; yes Satan is the god of the earth, BUT God is the God of all things including the earth.

Notice in the following verses, in the same chapter, God refers to the "prince of Tyrus" and to the "king of Tyrus." This is the same entity (Satan) being written of.....

Ezekiel 28:1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying, "Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, 'Thus saith the Lord GOD; 'Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, 'I am a GOD, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas;' yet thou art a man, and not GOD, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

28:12-13 "Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, 'Thus saith the Lord GOD; 'Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God: every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

28:14-15 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou was upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou was perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

In the previous age, before his rebellion, Satan was loved by God and he was "the anointed cherub." He got too big for his britches and the king was demoted to prince. Notice that he was "created," not born and that he walked in Eden and heaven. This is no ordinary man.

I cannot see that Satan had two beginnings. The word beginning in the Greek means beginning. Not first he was an angel, second he was a murder and liar. Which one was he? Do we take the RCC's translation or do we take the correct translation of the word Lucifer?

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

It isn't that it was Satan's beginning but the "from the beginning" was the beginning of this age.

 

[Benoni]

I am the last person on earth to see everything literal; but there has to be something in "God's Word" that makes it symbolic and or spiritual truths. When there are obvious errors in a dogma where the dogma does not line up wit the facts of God's Word, then something has to give. What must give is the false dogma. To many of God's people BLINDLY follow their religion no matter what God's Word declares. Their god is their religion.

God’s Word declares he was a liar from his beginning

If you must see every word of the bible as literal and infallible, then you must follow that to say that IF Satan was "a liar from his beginning", then it must be that God created him to BE so,. . . . . thus, a tool. That being the case, it opens a HUGE can of worms.

 

[whirlwind]

There is no reference to Satan here. The king of Tyrus is a man, Satan is a spirit.

Satan cannot have two beginnings. God's Word not my opioion declares that God created Satan as a liar, a murderer from his beginning;

But...it is not written "his beginning." It is from "the beginning."

The king of Tyrus is no mere man Benoni. Man doesn't walk in heaven, wasn't created (unless he was one of the first) and didn't walk in the garden of God. Angels, and he is an angel, are not a floating wisp of ecotoplasma. They eat, walk, talk, sit, etc. just as we do...they are us, or are as we will be after our physical death, for they are in their incorruptible spirit bodies.

Hebrews 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

 

[Benoni]

I posted this above.

Satan is a messenger, an evil one; He was never Lucifer.

The word angel simply means messenger; many time there are heavenly messengers as well as in some cases earthy messenger, you must weigh each verse closely.

NT:32

aggelos (ang'-el-os); from aggello [probably derived from NT:71; compare NT:34] (to bring tidings); a messenger; especially an "angel"; by implication, a pastor:

This was not a translation from the Greek, but instead the transliteration took the Greek word “aggelos†and concocted the word angel which simply means messenger.

Yes Satan fought the Arch Angel Michael; but if you notice Satan was referred to as Satan, the devil or the dragon never and arch angel or Lucifer.

So what is your point.

How does this verse link Lucifer and Satan? It is speaking of Satan and his angel's.

I guess I was thinking your post was about something else because of what you state at the end, which I was addressing: "Satan was full of darkness. God is not working on a plan B. He has had a plan and a purpose from the beginning and Satan was a part of that plan. Simply a tool. Never an angel."

If you're saying that Satan was never an angel, you're wrong. If you're talking about Lucifer, then you need to correct your statements above.

 

[Benoni]

The book of Genesis is probably the most important book ever written. The word "genesis" of course means "origin" or "beginning," and the book of Genesis gives the only true and reliable account of the basic entities and conditions of the universe and of life.

When the Bible speaks of "the beginning" He is speaking of the originating point of the subject in question. "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" (Gen.1:1).

The Hebrew word "beginning" is in the plural number - "beginnings." There were many things begun all at the same time.

"For by Him were ALL THINGS created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: ALL THINGS were created by Him and for Him: and He is before all things" (Col. 1:16-17).

When God speaks of "the beginning" He is speaking of the ORIGINATING POINT of the subject in question. It is written of Jesus when He had turned water into wine, "THIS BEGINNING of miracles did Jesus manifested forth His glory; and His disciples believed on Him" (Jn. 2:11). This means, as its originating point this miracle of the water turned into wine.

Webster defines "beginning" as (1) a start (2) the time or place of starting or coming into being; origin; source. It should not be difficult for anyone who has working knowledge of the English language to understand the meaning of "in the beginning" or "from the beginning." The beginning of anything is simply THE TIME OR PLACE OF ITS STARTING OR COMING INTO BEING

 

[Orion]

God’s Word declares he was a liar from his beginning

If you must see every word of the bible as literal and infallible, then you must follow that to say that IF Satan was "a liar from his beginning", then it must be that God created him to BE so,. . . . . thus, a tool. That being the case, it opens a HUGE can of worms.

God uses evil beings throughout Scripture, why would one be surprised that Satan from the beginning was an instrument of evil? Especially in light of Scripture like Isaiah 45:7. The important issue is that God in the final outcome has used evil as a way to promote a contrast of that which is moral and good for the benefit of creation.
Grace, Bubba

But it would appear that God didn't just USE "an evil being", but created it for the purpose OF it doing evil. That is a whole different story. Instead, why not take the concept of this evil creature and place it in the realm of "man saying something exists that never did". To me, that satisfies a lot of problems.

 

[Benoni]

Orion,
I am sorry, I do not understand this part of your statement?

"Instead, why not take the concept of this evil creature and place it in the realm of "man saying something exists that never did". To me, that satisfies a lot of problems".

My point about evil no matter how bad it gets God is soverign over all things. No one pulls the wool over His divine plan and purpose. That is why Satan is a created being not an arch angel. It was God who created the waster.

Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his works; and I have created the waster to destroy.

 

[Bubba]

Orion wrote:
"But it would appear that God didn't just USE "an evil being", but created it for the purpose OF it doing evil. That is a whole different story. Instead, why not take the concept of this evil creature and place it in the realm of "man saying something exists that never did". To me, that satisfies a lot of problems."

Are you saying that it is better to say Satan does not exists? Isaiah seems to say that God did "create evil" which certanly could of taken the form of a creature called Satan.
Bubba

 

[walter]

Who says archangels aren't created beings?

 

[follower of Christ]

So explain to me how Satan has two beginnings?

YOU are the one playing the game with scripture to come up with that nonsense...not me ;)

 

[Bubba]

Who says archangels aren't created beings?

I do not believe that archangels being created or not is the issue with Benoni. The question is; was Satan an angel at all?
Bubba