Who is the First and the Last?

[Sothenes]

Who is the First and the Last?

Isa 44:6
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I [am] the first, and I [am] the last; and beside me [there is] no God.

Jehovah describes Himself as the first and the last.

Rev 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Rev 1:18 I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Revelation 1 talks about Jesus and the one who has the keys to hell and death is Jesus.

Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star.

Jesus is identified in Revelation 22 and the first and the last as indicated in the context of verse 16 as the one who is speaking.

Jesus is the one with the keys to the Kingdom:

Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

For more information you can visit the section "The Son is Jehovah" under the link at:
http://www.waltermartin.org/article2.html

 

[Sothenes]

I asked on another forum for the users to help me explain whom is speaking and Jerry wrote:

In the OT, the first and the last is referring to Jehovah, the LORD - which could be any member of the Trinity - usually referring to the Father or the Son.

In the book of Revelation, the first and the last is equated with the Alpha and Omega. It is God Almighty.

Revelation 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Notice what is said about this person:

Revelation 1:17-18 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

When did God die? Jesus, the second person of the Trinity died on the cross for our sins but arose again.

 

[Georges]

Back from vacation....

Although I am not a Trinity guy...here is an interesting tidbit about the Alpha and Omega.....the Aleph and Tav (in Hebrew).

Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.

can you see the Alpha and Omega in the prophetic verse?

It's in between the "me" and ""whom" in the verse...see it yet?

Actually, it's not in the English version of the Bible....but, if you look at the Hebrew....you will see it...

here is the link to the Hebrew verse in http://www.blueletterbible.org

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/ ... 67.html#10

Look at the Hebrew text. The Aleph and Tav are the two letters that look like a "x" and an upside down "u". These are not translated into English.

another example of the Aleph and Tav being in the Hebrew text but not in the English is Gen 1:1.

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/ ... 904.html#1

In English the Alpha and Omega (Aleph and Tav) should read....

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created (aleph and Tav) the heaven and the earth.

I believe that God created the Messiah, and that as the Representative of God according to the Jewish Law of Agency could be considered the Alpha and Omega.

 

[Bick]

Bick here. IMO, It was the Word, the Expression of God from beginning, who was the Lord God of the OT, such as in Isa. 44:6.

And the Word became flesh, and dwelt amongst us. He came unto His own, and His own received Him not. They refused to believe He was the Messiah announcing the good news of the kingdom, the hope of Israel. He was crucified, and buried; but was roused from the dead.

And the occurrences in Revelation identify "Alpha and Omega", the "first and last" as Christ Jesus:

In Rev. 1:8 he identifies himself as the one "which is, which was, which is to come, the Almighty." We know from verse 1 that this book is concerning the revelation (unveiling) of Jesus Christ

In Rev1:18, he says, "I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore." Who else but Christ Jesus?

In Rev. 2:8, we read, "...These things saith the first and the last, which was dead and is alive." Again, Christ Jesus died and is alive.

In Rev. 22:13, it reads, "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last." And in conclusion, there is no mistaking who he is for he says, "Behold, I come quickly..."

Bick

 

[Georges]

First and Last can be the First and Last of just about anything.....


Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Clearly refers to Jesus as the beginning of the creation.

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.

Another (yet different) example of the usage of First born.

True, Firstborn and Beginning are different Greek words thatn Alpha, but the concept is the same.

 

[gingercat]

God does not have beginning and ending.

 

[Imagican]

Or they could BOTH be considered the Alpha and Omega for 'different' reasons. God- Alpha and Omega-beginning and end of EVERYTHING. Christ-Alpha and Omega-beginning and ending of MAN. For, if Christ is the 'firstborn of ALL creatures, then He obviously WAS the Son of God BEFORE man was created. And, if God is ETERNAL, that means that He WAS the beginning and will be the END. So, in these respects they would BOTH be Alpha and Omega. Let US make man in OUR image indicates that they were BOTH present upon creation. Since the Word was written for 'man', then Alpha and Omega could simply be referring to that which we understand, OUR beginning and end.

 

[gingercat]

Beginning and ending means completion becasue God does not have beginning and ending.

 

[Sothenes]

Beginning and ending means completion becasue God does not have beginning and ending.

Strong's # 746 arche, from 756; (prop. abstr.) a commencement, or (concr.) chief (in various applications or order, time, place or rank):-beginning, corner, (at the, the) first (estate), magistrate, power, principality, principle, rule."

If Jesus was created then how is He the "root" and "offspring" of David? The NIV uses the word "ancestor". How is Jesus the ancestor if He is also the offspring? Please refer to Revelation 22:16 for where I got this question from.

 

[gingercat]

Because Jesus is God's right hand assistant. God uses Jesus however He pleases with Him; and Jesus is willing assistant of God, remember?

 

[Sothenes]

Because Jesus is God's right hand assistant. God uses Jesus however He pleases with Him; and Jesus is willing assistant of God, remember?

Isaiah 59:1 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:

Is the Lord's hand shortened that it cannot save? You would have to answer and say,"no".

Why does God need an assistant to save? If God had an assistant to save then how could Jehovah say:

"I, even I, am the LORD (Jehovah); and beside me there is no saviour."-Isaiah 43:11

"This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."-Acts 4:12

If Jehovah was the other saviour, wouldn't they say that there was another name which could save us?

"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe."-1 Timothy 4:10 Jehovah says,"beside me there is no saviour" (Isaiah 43:11)

Is Jehovah that saviour of those who believe (1 Timothy 4:10) or Is Jesus the savior because Jesus is that stone and neither is there salvation in any other" (Acts 4:12)? You're saying that God needs an assistant to save yet Jehovah says his arm isn't short that He can't save (Isaiah 59:1). "And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world." (1 John 4:14) so either the Son is saviour of the world or God is saviour because Jehovah can't say,"beside me there is no saviour." (Isaiah 43:11) and have a different person being saviour unless Jesus is God Almighty.

Is God the Saviour of all men (1 Timothy 4:10) or did the Father send the Son to be the Saviour of the world (1 John 4:14)?

 

[gingercat]

Jesus is Son of God and Savior of the world and He is sitting at the right hand of mighty God, period.

 

[Sothenes]

Jesus is Son of God and Savior of the world and He is sitting at the right hand of mighty God, period.

I was hoping you would answer me. I am asking you to give me a reason for the hope that is in you because Peter says,"But sanctify the LORD God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:" (1 Peter 3:15). An answer that doesn't answer my question is a non-answer.

 

[gingercat]

Jesus is Son of God and Savior of the world and He is sitting at the right hand of mighty God, period.

I was hoping you would answer me. I am asking you to give me a reason for the hope that is in you because Peter says,"But sanctify the LORD God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:" (1 Peter 3:15). An answer that doesn't answer my question is a non-answer.

I have been giving you the answers and you want me to answer the way you want :roll:

What you are doing is manupulation and it is not honest, dear.

 

[Sothenes]

Jesus is Son of God and Savior of the world and He is sitting at the right hand of mighty God, period.

I was hoping you would answer me. I am asking you to give me a reason for the hope that is in you because Peter says,"But sanctify the LORD God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:" (1 Peter 3:15). An answer that doesn't answer my question is a non-answer.

I have been giving you the answers and you want me to answer the way you want :roll:

What you are doing is manupulation and it is not honest, dear.

I gave you a biblical reason to answer. I asked you a question. Getting an honest answer is all I wanted. You don't have to answer me but an answer that doesn't reflect the question is avoiding the question. Answering the question is respectful and isn't manipulation but it is life and if you don't wish to answer the question then you don't have to.

 

[gingercat]

I gave you a biblical reason to answer. I asked you a question. Getting an honest answer is all I wanted. You don't have to answer me but an answer that doesn't reflect the question is avoiding the question. Answering the question is respectful and isn't manipulation but it is life and if you don't wish to answer the question then you don't have to.

We have been through this million times. Why do you want to make sure that I don't have enough knowledge of Bible?

I believe I do. Just because I don't answer the way you want you don't have to make me look like idiot or ignorant.

I know very well you know your trinity theology. You don't have to show off.

I use the Bible to live and not to show off how well I can memorize.

BTW. I cannot memorize the way most of you guys do. I don't even try to memorize the way you do.

 

[Sothenes]

I gave you a biblical reason to answer. I asked you a question. Getting an honest answer is all I wanted. You don't have to answer me but an answer that doesn't reflect the question is avoiding the question. Answering the question is respectful and isn't manipulation but it is life and if you don't wish to answer the question then you don't have to.

We have been through this million times. Why do you want to make sure that I don't have enough knowledge of Bible?

I believe I do. Just because I don't answer the way you want you don't have to make me look like idiot or ignorant.

I know very well you know your trinity theology. You don't have to show off.

I use the Bible to live and not to show off how well I can memorize.

BTW. I cannot memorize the way most of you guys do. I don't even try to memorize the way you do.

Gingercat,

I've been a believer since 1980 and I've been doing public evangelism since 1986 or 87. I don't think that I'm that good when I compare myself to other ministry students or some sunday school teachers because a lot of them outshine me. I have no agenda to make you or anyone look bad and I think that if I had any unpure motives other than wanting people to know their God then I can assure you that I would have outgrown and grown tired of it by now. Trying to get people to listen isn't always easy so I have to overemphasise the truth and present it in ways that it can't be easily refuted. I've given you the truth and you are now responsible with what you do with the truth before God. I'm not here to make fun of any person but I am here to accept anyone as a brother, sister, or friend who accepts the truth and all I want to do is to be loved but I have to put Jesus first and giving people the truth comes before every relationship because it is love that says that other people knowing their God is more important than my relationships with people or worrying about whether people like me. The cost of telling people the truth means that some people won't like me but it is worth it.

 

[gingercat]

Sothense,

I already stated my positions many times. What makes you think you have the truth and I don't. It is so arrogant of you. I have pride of being Jesus' follower and trinitarians are not the only ones that are Christians.
You are taking Jesus' job. Judging who has the truth and ostracising them because they don't agree with your trinity is just outrageous.

I believe you trinitarians have serious spiritual problems with the Lord.

 

[Sothenes]

Sothense,

I already stated my positions many times. What makes you think you have the truth and I don't. It is so arrogant of you. I have pride of being Jesus' follower and trinitarians are not the only ones that are Christians.
You are taking Jesus' job. Judging who has the truth and ostracising them because they don't agree with your trinity is just outrageous.

I believe you trinitarians have serious spiritual problems with the Lord.

I never said that I knew the truth perfectly but I asked questions and gave you the opportunity to answer them and to show me where I'm wrong. Jesus gave His followers the right to speak about Him (Matthew 28:19-20) and Jesus said:

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Therefore since you recognize me as not the only one who is a Christian, Jesus promised that his spirit would lead me in all truth.

Psalm 143:10 Teach me to do thy will; for thou [art] my God: thy spirit [is] good; lead me into the land of uprightness.

 

[gingercat]

Sothenes,

Scriptures can be used for our own selfish motives. Both trinitrians and non-trinitarians have been quoting Scriptures and expressing their convictions over and over. And you are still insisting on continuing to quote the Scriptures to back it up. You have been asking me questions but what you are doing is trying to lead the way you want to lead. You will keep ask me questions without end. That's how most of the threads are going; they ask questions and they are not satisfied and accuse their opposers of not being biblical or don't know the truth.

By our fruit we know whether we are true followers of Jesus or not; not by the theologies. I have plenty of my own threads and posts to show how I am living the Bible but somehow you are unable to see how to look for the fruit.

We should be able to tell if we are talking biblically or not if we have been reading and obeying the Bible.

I know you have been quoting the Scriptures but I don't believe they are going along with the whole context ot It.

I am done with you on this. You can claim victory. After all, you have millions of supporters. I hope you know that only a few find Jesus' way.

Good day, sothenes.