Who is the First and the Last?

[Imagican]

Beginning and ending means completion becasue God does not have beginning and ending.

Strong's # 746 arche, from 756; (prop. abstr.) a commencement, or (concr.) chief (in various applications or order, time, place or rank):-beginning, corner, (at the, the) first (estate), magistrate, power, principality, principle, rule."

If Jesus was created then how is He the "root" the 'root' for through Christ, man was created. and "offspring" of David?, the offspring, for Mary was directly related through the geneology of David and therefore by being born in the flesh of Mary making Christ, the man, the descendant or offspring of David also. The NIV uses the word "ancestor". How is Jesus the ancestor if He is also the offspring? Please refer to Revelation 22:16 for where I got this question from.

 

[Imagican]

Jesus is Son of God and Savior of the world and He is sitting at the right hand of mighty God, period.

I was hoping you would answer me. I am asking you to give me a reason for the hope that is in you because Peter says,"But sanctify the LORD God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:" (1 Peter 3:15). An answer that doesn't answer my question is a non-answer.

Soth, your kind of a cynical guy. But, as you so 'slickly' offered gingercat, let me also say, "I'm glad that you brought up Peter". Let us see what the apostle Peter had to say:

1 Peter 1:1-5

1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. Please note that we have God THE FATHER, 'AND' Jesus Christ in this scripture.
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his, (God's), abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Now Soth, is this NOT an obvious distinction of God and Christ? Does this not outright SHOW a separation in entity of God and His Son, Jesus Christ? For it states PLAINLY: THE GOD AND FATHER OF Our Lord Jesus Christ. It does NOT say Jesus Christ our God, it says plainly that God is the God of Jesus also. That the Father is Jesus' God. And that 'through' Christ, we have AGAIN been given hope through SALVATION.

The 'salvation' IS given of God BUT through Jesus Christ. So, even though Christs' death brought us Salvation, it was Christ following the WILL of the Father that made it possible. In other words, Christ DIDN'T 'give' us Salvation, but through his following the WILL of the Father we were given Salvation FROM God through His Son Jesus Christ.

 

[Sothenes]

Soth, your kind of a cynical guy. But, as you so 'slickly' offered gingercat, let me also say, "I'm glad that you brought up Peter". Let us see what the apostle Peter had to say:

1 Peter 1:1-5

1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. Please note that we have God THE FATHER, 'AND' Jesus Christ in this scripture.
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his, (God's), abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Now Soth, is this NOT an obvious distinction of God and Christ? Does this not outright SHOW a separation in entity of God and His Son, Jesus Christ? For it states PLAINLY: THE GOD AND FATHER OF Our Lord Jesus Christ. It does NOT say Jesus Christ our God, it says plainly that God is the God of Jesus also. That the Father is Jesus' God. And that 'through' Christ, we have AGAIN been given hope through SALVATION.

The 'salvation' IS given of God BUT through Jesus Christ. So, even though Christs' death brought us Salvation, it was Christ following the WILL of the Father that made it possible. In other words, Christ DIDN'T 'give' us Salvation, but through his following the WILL of the Father we were given Salvation FROM God through His Son Jesus Christ.

Imagician,

If you read Dr. Robert Bowman's paper on the Trinity, the section you want is "IV - Is God One Person?" at:

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/t05.html#five

Galatians 3: says "Now a mediator is not a [mediator] of one, but God is one." This verse does not speak of God being one person but that the God is one. And you have to understand Philippians 2:6-12 that Jesus was fully God but took on an additional nature (John 1:14) which is that of man. As a man, Jesus was still God but the human part let the Father be "God" because Philippians 2:6-12 says that Jesus humbled himself. I hope you understand that.

The other problem is that you don't understand 1 Peter 1:2. Who is doing the sanctifying? The spirit (1 Peter 1:2) or the word (John 17:17) because Jesus is praying to the Father in John 17:17? If you can understand who is doing the sanctifying then you can understand God's identity so I would like you to answer the question as to whom is doing the sanctifying.

Edward Henry Bickersteth asks in "The Trinity" (The Classic Study of Biblical Trinitarianism) "..,In the cases cited above, was the cooperating Spirit identical with the Father or with the Son? Could you say it was the Father or the Son who descended on Christ at his baptism, or on the apostles at Pentecost? Could you assert that we are baptized into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of one who likewise is the Father, or the Son? Or that grace and peace are besought from the eternal Father, and from one who under another name is also the Father, and from Jesus Christ? No one could maintain this for a moment. The Holy Ghost, therefore, cannot be identified or confounded either with the eternal Father, or with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord."-p.122

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:" (Matthew 28:19) or "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38)

Who's name should we be baptized into? What role is God playing there? Can you answer me? I think I like these questions.

Who descended on Christ at His baptism and who descended on the Apostles at their baptism?

 

[Imagican]

Soth, your kind of a cynical guy. But, as you so 'slickly' offered gingercat, let me also say, "I'm glad that you brought up Peter". Let us see what the apostle Peter had to say:

1 Peter 1:1-5

1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. Please note that we have God THE FATHER, 'AND' Jesus Christ in this scripture.
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his, (God's), abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Now Soth, is this NOT an obvious distinction of God and Christ? Does this not outright SHOW a separation in entity of God and His Son, Jesus Christ? For it states PLAINLY: THE GOD AND FATHER OF Our Lord Jesus Christ. It does NOT say Jesus Christ our God, it says plainly that God is the God of Jesus also. That the Father is Jesus' God. And that 'through' Christ, we have AGAIN been given hope through SALVATION.

The 'salvation' IS given of God BUT through Jesus Christ. So, even though Christs' death brought us Salvation, it was Christ following the WILL of the Father that made it possible. In other words, Christ DIDN'T 'give' us Salvation, but through his following the WILL of the Father we were given Salvation FROM God through His Son Jesus Christ.

Imagician,

If you read Dr. Robert Bowman's paper on the Trinity, the section you want is "IV - Is God One Person?" at:

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/t05.html#five

Galatians 3: says "Now a mediator is not a [mediator] of one, but God is one." This verse does not speak of God being one person but that the God is one. And you have to understand Philippians 2:6-12 that Jesus was fully God but took on an additional nature (John 1:14) which is that of man. As a man, Jesus was still God but the human part let the Father be "God" because Philippians 2:6-12 says that Jesus humbled himself. I hope you understand that.

What I understand is that Jesus WAS in existence 'before' man. And He WAS/IS the Son of God. This would explain how He humbled Himself by 'coming in the flesh'. Where as He could have weilded ALL the power given Him of the Father, He chose instead to 'humble' Himself and follow the will of the Father.

The other problem is that you don't understand 1 Peter 1:2. Who is doing the sanctifying? The spirit (1 Peter 1:2) or the word (John 17:17) because Jesus is praying to the Father in John 17:17? If you can understand who is doing the sanctifying then you can understand God's identity so I would like you to answer the question as to whom is doing the sanctifying.

God through Christ. It specifically states that through, "the sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ.........'

Edward Henry Bickersteth asks in "The Trinity" (The Classic Study of Biblical Trinitarianism) "..,In the cases cited above, was the cooperating Spirit identical with the Father or with the Son? Could you say it was the Father or the Son who descended on Christ at his baptism, or on the apostles at Pentecost? Could you assert that we are baptized into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of one who likewise is the Father, or the Son? Or that grace and peace are besought from the eternal Father, and from one who under another name is also the Father, and from Jesus Christ? No one could maintain this for a moment. The Holy Ghost, therefore, cannot be identified or confounded either with the eternal Father, or with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord."-p.122

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:" (Matthew 28:19) or "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38)

Who's name should we be baptized into? What role is God playing there? Can you answer me? I think I like these questions.

Who descended on Christ at His baptism and who descended on the Apostles at their baptism?

You can claim that the Spirit is a 'third' person. But all indications are that the Spirit is the Spirit of God brought to us by Jesus Christ. That 'same' Spirit that decended upon Jesus upon His Baptism.

 

[Sothenes]

You can claim that the Spirit is a 'third' person. But all indications are that the Spirit is the Spirit of God brought to us by Jesus Christ. That 'same' Spirit that decended upon Jesus upon His Baptism.

The Spirit (Holy Ghost) has all the attributes of a person. The Spirit can be grieved:

"And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."-Ephesians 4:30 English Standard Version

The Spirit can be lied to:

But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land? 4 While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? Why is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.†-Acts 5:3-4

The Spirit has a will:

"All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills."-1 Corinthians 12:11 (English Standard Version)

Did you notice the above personal pronoun used of the spirit? The Bible says,"as he wills." A force such as electricity cannot be lied to, doesn't have a will and can't be grieved.

“Scripture quotations are from The Holy Bible, English Standard Version, copyright © 2001 by Crossway Bibles, a division of Good News Publishers. Used by permission. All rights reserved.â€Â

You want me to answer your questions but you aren't willing to answer my questions. I answered you and what you said in return isn't fully true based on a study.

I had all these verses printed out about sanctification:

1 Cor. 1:2 says we are sanctified in Christ
2 Thess 2:13 says we are sanctified through the Spirit
1 Peter 1:1 says we are sanctified by God.

I have the following verses: John 17:19, John 17:14-16, 1 Thessalonians 5:23, Colossians 1:10 and Hebrews 2:11, etc.