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Who is the Manchild of Rev 12:5? Part 1

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Who is the Manchild?

The “manchild†found in Revelation 12:5 is the subject of much controversy amongst the ranks of eschatologists. Many theologians consider the manchild to be Christ, and the “woman†who gives birth to the child as Israel, and her crown of twelve stars as the twelve individual tribes of Israel. This is the most common view. Others view the manchild as offspring of the church, portrayed as the pregnant woman, whose crown of twelve stars is symbolic of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

The problem with the view of the woman as Israel giving birth to Christ is that it violates the context of chapter 12 of Revelation, which takes place during the time of the dragon with 7 heads (each head representing one of seven world governments that have existed since the time of Egypt).

The last, and seventh head of the dragon is said to be the “beast†(Revelation 13:1‑6) that “wages war†against the saints and overcomes them (Revelation 13:7). If the manchild in 12:5 was Christ, then he would have been caught up to the throne of God as soon as he was born from Mary’s womb, which did NOT happen.

This seventh headed beast is said to have power, which causes the whole earth to worship his image, (Revelation 13:15‑18), and to take make people take the mark of the beast (666), or the number of his name. There are numerous scripture passages proving the beast with seven heads exists in the end times, and not during the time of Jesus Christ’s birth or earthly ministry; these verses are found in Revelation 14:9,11; 15:2; 16:2,10,13; 17:3,7,8,11‑13,16, 17; 19:20; 20:4,10.

Since it is clear that the manchild is born during the time of the “beast†with 7 heads, this child must be symbolic of someone other than Jesus Christ. In Revelation 1:1 the angel showed the apostle John “the things which must shortly take place.†Most authorities agree that John’s book of Revelation was written about 96 A.D. Therefore the, “things, which must shortly take place,†is a reference to future events from 96 A.D. onward.

The book of Revelation is a book about events that are futuristic in time; it is a prophetic book using signs and symbols to convey its message (see Revelation 1:3; 22:7,10,18,19). In fact the Greek word for “signified†in the King James Version (KJV) translation of Rev. 1:1 literally means “signs and symbols.â€Â

The question is: WHAT does the “manchild†of Revelation 12:5 represent? This male child is symbolic of something or someone, but what or who? The Worrell New Testament (A.S. Worrell’s Translation With Study Notes), Copyright 1904 by A.S. Worrell. Copyright assigned to the Assemblies of God, Springfield, MO. 1980 edition published by the Gospel Publishing House, Springfield, No 65802. Printed in the U.S.A. Page 382, NOTES ON CHAPTER XII says:

We understand the woman in this chapter to represent Christendom, and the man‑child to represent the overcoming portion of the raptured saints. This chapter, chronologically, seems to fit on to the close of the third chapter. Chapters 4 and 5 present a heavenly vision; chapters 6‑11 set forth in symbol the woes that are to follow the rapture; and chapters 13‑19 execute these foretold woes.

Verses 1,2 “Clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feetâ€Â; this indicates the great honor and dignity that attach to the woman. “Travailing in birth, and being in pain to bring forthâ€Â; this seems to represent the great labor and pain of Christendom, in bringing forth the full overcomer, who is, with Jesus, to rule the world with a rod of iron, (chapter 3:21).

Verses 3,4 these verses seem to represent Satan who is striving to thwart the purpose of God to elevate to the throne a portion of the seed of Christ.

Verses 5 “She brought forth a manchildâ€Â; not Jesus Christ, as we understand it, but some believers of the overcoming type (Ephesians 4:13,15), who are fit to reign with Jesus by reason of His fully developed life in them. To make this man‑child refer to Jesus Christ is to violate the universal principle in the language, which forbids, in the very nature of things, the symbolizing of a past historical event! Christ had been born not far from ninety years, when John wrote the book of Revelation; but if we understand this man‑child as representing one of a class of full overcomers, who are to reign with Jesus, and then there seems to be no violence done to the language.

In Revelation 12:5 the manchild is “caught up†to God and to His throne. The Greek word for “caught†is “harpazo.†Harpazo means, “to seize†(in various applications), such as, “catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).†See Strong’s #726. There is no Greek word in the original text indicating upward movement in Revelation 12:5. The word that follows “caught†does not mean “up,†but rather, “toward.†In fact, the Greek interlinear uses the word “prósâ€Â; prós (Strong’s #4314) is a preposition meaning “toward.â€Â

In Greek, when a preposition “pros†follows a verb “caught†which is in the aorist indicative passive, it implies action at a particular point in time, and would read in English like this:

Revelation 12:5 And her child was seized toward the throne of the God (at a particular point in time).â€Â

Here, the “child†is the object of what it is being “seized toward†(i.e. – the throne of the God). This shows a relationship between God and the child, causing us to believe the child is referring to the church, for they are God’s children:

John 1:12-13 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (NAS)

Romans 8:16-17 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him in order that we may also be glorified with Him. (NAS)

Romans 9:8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants. (NAS)

Hebrews 2:11-13 For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, saying, “I will proclaim Thy name to My brethren, in the midst of the congregation I will sing Thy praise.†And again, “I will put my trust in Him.†And again, “Behold, I and the children whom God has given me.â€Â

In 1 Thessalonians 4:17, there is a reference to the return of Jesus Christ for His church, and the same Greek word “harpazo†is used for the believers being “caught†or “seized.â€Â

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord. (NAS)

Again, the Greek text in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 does not support the idea of being caught “up†(as in an upward direction); the Greek word for “up†(apo) is not used. Rather, a primary preposition “en†is used; the Greek preposition “en†denotes those being “seized†or taken into a fixed (permanent) position in their state of existence and their relation of eternal rest with the Lord. This word “en†is rarely used with verbs of motion, and even then is not to indicate direction. In other words, 1 Thessalonians 4:17 reads as follows using the Greek construction:

1 Thessalonians 4:17 b “Then we which are alive and surviving shall be seized together into a fixed position, into a relation of rest.â€Â

If we compare Revelation 12:5 and 1 Thessalonians 4:17 side by side, we can see a definite relationship between the two verses:

Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man-child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was seized toward the throne of the God, (at a particular point in time). *Literal Greek rendering.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and surviving shall be seized together into a fixed position in a relation of rest with them in clouds, to meet coming from different directions, the Lord into the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. *Literal Greek rendering (KJV)

The Greek word for “coming†in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is parousía meaning ‘presence’; Jesus Christ is portrayed as “coming†in a “presence†from multiple different directions. When the text says the believers meet him in the air, it speaks not of our immediate natural atmosphere, but a spiritual realm or dimension.

The Jews did not designate the “air†as the dwelling place of angels, but of Satan and his demons. It is in this context that Paul designates Satan as being the ruler of the power of the air (Ephesians 2:2 & 6:12). The Lord will penetrate this realm or area in order to deliver His own people from the earthly dimension.

Thus far, we have established three points:

The “manchild†symbolizes the church; male & female believers collectively

The “harpazo†or “seizing†of the child toward God’s throne indicates a relationship of parent to child.

There is a clear relationship in the use of the word “harpazo†in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and Revelation 12:5 to offer proof of a “seizing†of certain believers from the realm of this earth, and from Satan, the god of this world, into another realm.

The Manchild and the Overcomers

The manchild represents the overcoming believers who are watching and praying (Luke 21:34-36) in order to escape the beast, which brings the Great Tribulation upon the lukewarm Christendom, which is deceived by the cares of life. The manchild will be “seized†toward the throne of God in Revelation 12:5, and “seized†into the presence of Jesus in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. The verses below give us a better understanding of what exactly a believer should be doing in order to escape the great tribulation:

Luke 21:25-36 “And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and upon the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves, men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.†And He told them a parable: “Behold the fig tree and all the trees; as soon as they put forth leaves, you see it and know for yourselves that summer is now near. Even so you, too, when you see these things happening, recognize that the kingdom of God is near. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. Be on guard, that your hearts may not be weighted down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of life, and that day come on you suddenly like a trap; for it will come upon all those who dwell on the face of all the earth. But keep on the alert at all times, praying in order that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.†(NAS)

Something distinguishes the manchild overcomers from other believers in the last days. That distinction is their fervent (i.e. - boiling) love for Jesus Christ. Unlike the Laodicean church, which has become lukewarm by seeking material and financial gain, the manchild is also symbolized as the Philadelphia church, which has maintained their love and zeal for Jesus Christ.

The book of Revelation contrasts the church of Philadelphia with the church at Laodicea. Philadelphia represents the church of overcomers, the manchild. Why? Because the text of Revelation 3:7-13 says they have kept the word of Jesus’ patience, and are therefore they will be kept “from†(Greek word is “ekâ€Â, meaning “out ofâ€Â) the hour of temptation (the Greek word means “testingâ€Â), which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Revelation 3:10-13 ‘Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from (The Greek preposition is “ek†meaning, “out ofâ€Â) the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth. I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, in order that no one take your crown. He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write upon him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’ (NAS)

Laodicea seeks materialistic goals (Revelation 3:17), and therefore they are similar to the rich in the “last days†that hoard wealth and riches, as mentioned earlier in James 5:7. This group of believers will not be one heart and mind with the manchild during its development in the womb of the visible church (i.e. – Christendom), which is symbolized by the pregnant woman in travail in Revelation 12:5. They will find repentance at a later time, when they are tried by fire, so to speak, in the Great Tribulation, which shall come upon the entire earth.

The church at Philadelphia has but a “little power,†yet those who are part of Philadelphia are faithful to hold fast the word of God, and will not abnegate or deny the name, character, authority, and reputation of Jesus (see Revelation 3:8). This is solid proof that the manchild is not some last day’s powerhouse army of believers, but a meek and humble group of Christians, who have taken the role as servants.

In fact, the Greek words “little power†in Revelation 3:8 are “mikrán dúnamin†meaning, “microscopic in strength, ability, power.†God is saying the Philadelphia church is not noted for their miraculous demonstration of signs and wonders. In fact, they are actually quite weak; but in this weakness, they find they are strong in God. If the Philadelphia church is synonymous with the manchild of Revelation 12:5, then the Latter Rain concept of a manchild company of believers endued with miraculous power, and doing greater works than Jesus did is fallacious.

Philadelphia means literally “in the direction of being in a fixed position, of close association in dear, and active fondness as friends, coming from the same womb.“ This shows the primary characteristic of the Philadelphia-manchild church is characterized by their committed friendships love one for another.

Jesus said, “Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.†(John 15:13) Perhaps this is what Christ meant in John 14:12 by His church doing “greater works†than He did. After all, the greatest of all of Christ’s works was being humbled, even to the point of death on a cross. We are His servants, and the servant is not greater than His master, is he? (Read John 15:20)

John 14:12 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go to the Father.†NAS

One interesting note in the Greek text of John 14:12 is the fact the word “works†following the word “greater†has been omitted. The English Bible translators erroneously added the word “works†to comply with either their doctrine or assumption. Latter Rain – Manchild doctrine emphasizes this verse, and uses it as a hallmark characteristic of what the Manchild Ministry will be like. They believe when God pours out the Latter Rain†or strong deluge of His spirit in the last days, it will result in the manchild company doing greater miracles and signs and wonders than Jesus Christ ever did.

The simple fact is John 14:12 reads from the Greek as, “…the works that I do shall he do also; and greater…†Greater what? Not miracles, for sure. Philadelphia has only microscopic strength, but they have the love of God, which is greater than any miracle or sign or wonder.

The following is a list of the “greater†characteristics of the Philadelphia church/manchild; note that not one verse associates miraculous power as being part of what God or Jesus considers “greater!â€Â

Matthew 11:11 "Truly, I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. New American Standard

Mark 12:31 “The second is this, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these.†New American Standard Bible

Luke 22:27 For who is greater, the one who reclines at the table, or the one who serves? Is it not the one who reclines at the table? But I am among you as the one who serves. New American Standard Bible

John 13:13-17 “You call Me Teacher and Lord; and you are right, for so I am. 14 If I then, the Lord and the Teacher, washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet. 15 For I gave you an example that you also should do as I did to you. 16 Truly, truly, I say to you, a slave is not greater than his master; neither is one who is sent greater than the one who sent him. 17 If you know these things, you are blessed if you do them. New American Standard Bible

John 15:12-14 “This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. 14 You are My friends, if you do what I command you.†New American Standard Bible

1 Corinthians 12:31-13:2 But earnestly desire the greater gifts. And I show you a still more excellent way. 13:1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 And if I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. New American Standard Bible

1 John 4:4 You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world. New American Standard Bible

3 John 4 I have no greater joy than this, to hear of my children walking in the truth. New American Standard Bible

Note that the literal definition of Philadelphia includes this church as “coming from the same womb.†This simple fact gives the Philadelphia a clear and direct tie to the birth of the manchild from the womb of the woman in Rev. 12:5. Ironically, with regards to the birth of a Manchild, the Greek word “arsen†is used in reference to the womb in another NT reference:

Luke 2:23 As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord; (KJV)

The word “manchild†is from two Greek words. “Man†is the Greek “arsen†meaning “maleâ€Â, (as stronger for lifting), and is from a root word “airo†meaning, “to liftâ€Â; by implication, “to take awayâ€Â. The second part of the word “child†is the Greek word “huios†and this word primarily signifies the relation of an offspring to parent and not simply the birth as indicated by the usual Greek word “teknon.â€Â

In Matt. 19:4 “arsen†is used when Jesus said, “...He (God) who created them from the beginning made them male (arsen) and female.â€Â

When we compare the concept of both male and female being made into what scripture calls, “man,†the account in Gen. 5:2 applies:

“He (God) created them male and female, and He blessed them & named them man (adam) in the day when they were created.â€Â

Gen. 5:2 refers to both male and female as the “manchild.†We know this because of the manner in which Gal. 3:28 is written, and includes ‘arsen’ to refer to both man and woman in Christ. In the NT “arsen†is used in Gal. 3:28 which reads:

“... there is neither male (arsen) nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.†Gal. 3:28

Combining these thoughts, “arsen†can refer to the strength (lifting) of a body of believers in Christ who are born of the Spirit (John 3:3,8) and are made one in the Spirit by God. The manchild of Rev. 12:5 symbolizes groups of believers, both male and female, who have come from one Father; who have been born of the Spirit of God, and nurtured in the womb of the visible church. Their oneness with God is seen in their friendship and love for one another:

John 17:11, 21 “And I am no more in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to Thee. Holy Father, keep them in Thy name, the name which Thou hast given Me, that they may be one, even as We are…that they may all be one; even as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be in Us; that the world may believe that Thou didst send Me. (NAS)

John 13:34-35 “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.†(NAS)

As stated earlier, the Greek word “huios†primarily signifies the relation of an offspring to parent and not simply the birth as indicated by the usual Greek word “teknon.†The Greek word “huios†used for the “child†part of “manchild†shows the relationship of this body of believers to their God. Huios is used in the relationship between God and Christ as Father and Son. Huios is also used of the spiritual parental relationship of God and His children, the body of Christ, referred to as “sons†(though it is not speaking of the male and female gender; rather by way of analogy) in the following scripture references:

Rom. 8:14 “For all who are being led by the spirit of God, these are the sons (huios) of God.â€Â

Rom 8:19 The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons (huios) of God to be revealed. (NIV)

Rom 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son (huios), that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. (NIV)

Rom 9:25-26 As He says also in Hosea, “I will call those who were not My people, ‘My people,’ And her who was not beloved, beloved.’ And it shall be that in the place where it was said to them, ‘you are not My people,’ There they shall be called sons (huios) of the living God.†(NAS)

2 Cor 6:14-18 Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness? Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever? Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, “I will dwell in them and walk among them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. Therefore, come out from their midst and be separate,†says the Lod. “And do not touch what is unclean; and I will welcome you. And I will be a father to you, and you shall be sons (huios) and daughters to me,†says the Lord Almighty. (NAS)

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children (huios) of God by faith in Christ Jesus. (KJV)

Gal 4:4-7 But when the fulness of the time came, God sent forth His Son (huios), born of a woman, born under the Law, in order that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons (huios). And because you are sons (huios), God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son (huios) into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!†Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son (huios); and if a son (huios), then an heir through God. (NAS)

Heb 12:7-11 It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons (huios); for what son (huios) is there whom his father does not discipline? But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons (huios). Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live? For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, that we may share His holiness. All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness. (NAS)

SUMMARY OF THE ABOVE: The word “manchild†in Revelation 12:5 refers to a body of believers who are made one by the Spirit of God, as long as they are willing to be led by His spirit. Huios is also used in Rom. 8:19 “sonsâ€Â, Rom. 9:26 “children†or “sons†and in other texts in reference to the body of Christ, both male and female.

continued in "Who is the Manchild of Rev 12:5? Part 2"
 
Re: Who is the Manchild of Rev 12:5? Part 2

We are to grow in our relationship with our Heavenly Father. We do this by walking in the footsteps of His only begotten Son, and our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Just like a child grows inside the nurturing womb of its mother, the manchild is to grow up into Him who is the Head, even Christ (Eph.4:15-16). As the context of Ephesians chapter four indicates, this growing up, or maturing into Christ can only happen through the ministry of the different members of His spiritual body:

Eph 4:11-16 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fulness of Christ. As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves, and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him, who is the head, even Christ, from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by that which every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love. (NAS)

BECOMING A PART OF THE MANCHILD

Phil.2: 1-5,12-15 shows us that in order to be presented blameless as the people who will be a part of the “manchild†we are to be conformed to the image of Christ. We are to have the same attitude in us that was in Him; taking on the form of servants, regarding one another as more important than ourselves.

Jesus was the example of what we are to be to one another and to the world…. humble servants. Servitude is an expression of sacrificial love, genuine friendship, and the effectual working of each individual member of the manchild’s body.

Phil 2:1-5 If therefore there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion, make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose. Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind let each of you regard one another as more important than himself; do not {merely} look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. Have this attitude in yourselves that was also in Christ Jesus. (NAS)

It has always been a command to every believer in Jesus Christ to, “work out your salvation with fear and trembling.†It is now, as it has always been in times past, the choice of the individual believer.

Phil 2:12-15 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure. Do all things without grumbling or disputing; that you may prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world. (NAS)

Mankind is basically selfish by nature, but God’s Word demands death to self (Gal. 2:20) through serving others (Matt.23: 11). Through this death to self comes the new life in Christ (Rom. 6:4-11), but it is a narrow path to follow, and few choose to go this path:

Matt 7:13-14 “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide, and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter by it. For the gate is small, and the way is narrow that leads to life, and few are those who find it.†(NAS)

This is why the manchild of Revelation 12:5 is seen as a smaller body than that of the woman; they are those “few†who walk on the narrow path. The manchild is not a great powerhouse last day’s army as supposed by the early neo-Pentecostal revivalists. The manchild is the same as the church in Philadelphia that has but a “little power,†(Lit. Greek=micro amount of miraculous power).

Christendom at large is lukewarm and selfish, but within the body of the woman is growing a smaller company of believers who is beginning to learn the meaning of becoming bondservants of Christ. These few believers are treading the path of thousands of believers in days gone by who have also walked as bondservants. The difference is, that they live in an age, pre-determined by God that will make them a company of believers who are “seized†from this earth into the realm of God.

Just as the symbolic woman in Revelation 12:5 is travailing in pain, trying to give birth to her manchild, so the church today is in the “pains of childbirth†until now, eagerly awaiting the “revealing of the sons of God.†(Rom. 8:19-22).

Jesus asked His Father, and was assured of a promise that one day the church would give birth to a body of believers that would truly be “one†(John 17:11-12).

In Isaiah 66 there is a prophecy that coincides with the prophecy of the manchild birth in Revelation 12:5. Isaiah speaks first of the birth of Christ as a man child, and then the birth of many children:

Isaiah 66:7-9 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man-child (Jesus the Christ). Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall a land be born in one day? Shall a nation be brought forth at once? For as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children (the Manchild of Rev. 12:5). “Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth?†saith Jehovah: “shall I that cause to bring forth shut (the womb)?†saith thy God. (ASV)

The womb of the church has been barren for almost 2000 years since the death and resurrection of Jesus. But just like Sarah who was past her child bearing years, God produced a manchild (see Ro.4:17-25). Isaiah 66:8 says this manchild will be a nation brought forth all at once; 1 Pet.2:9 confirms this as a “holy nation.â€Â

In this last generation before the Lord’s return (Luke 21:32), God is bringing to the breach a people who “tremble at His Word.†(Isaiah 66:5) But just like Christ was hated by the religious men of His day, and delivered up because of their envy and jealousy, so the manchild shall be “hated for His Name’s sake,†(Is.66:5; Matt.10:22; 24:8-9; Mk.13:13), even by their own brethren.

Nevertheless, Gal. 4:26-29 promises that the Jerusalem above is free, she is our mother, and she will cause the barren woman to give birth in the midst of persecution (see Gal. 4:29). Perhaps this hatred and persecution is what is meant by the “pains†of childbirth the visible church experiences, as a body of believers develops within its womb, kicking and moving against the walls of tradition, and causing the woman to separate the child from itself.

One of the characteristics of the manchild is their love for the truth of God’s word, and a desire to obey it, no matter the cost (John 17:14-17; 7:16-17; 4:23).

· They value God’s truth above the traditions and orthodoxy of man (Col. 2:8; Mk. 7:8-9).

· They recognize the Scriptures as the inspired Word of God, and study it to show themselves approved of God, not men (2 Tim. 3:16-17).

· They grow in the truth, not for the sake of doctrine alone, but to draw closer to their Lord and to one another (John 5:39-40).

The Scriptures say that there will be a great falling away of believers in the last days because Christians don’t have a love for the truth (2 Thessalonians 2:3; l0-l2; l:Tim.4:l). God’s Word is said to be the “sword of the Spirit†(Eph. 6:17), and Christ said that this “sword†would bring division, even in the family of God (Matt.10:34). The word of God shall either unify those who speak it to one another in love (Eph. 4:15,21,25), or it will divide those who are disobedient to it.

The greatest commandment Jesus gave His disciples is found in Mark 12:29-31. It is to:
1. Hear that the Lord our God is one Lord
2. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength
3. Love your neighbor as yourself.

Jesus, prayer that we become one, as He and the Father are one, is relational. A man cannot say he loves God whom he has not seen, yet hate his brother whom he has seen (l Jn.2:3- 6, 9-11; 4:20-21). The “manchild†in the womb of the church is perfected (Greek means matured) by the love they have for one another (1 John 4:7-19).

After the manchild has fully matured within the womb of the visible church, and the woman with a crown of 12 stars gives birth to the child (Revelation 12:1-2,5), she flees into the wilderness to be nourished by God for 3 ½ years (Revelation 12:6). The seven-headed dragon pursues the woman with a flood of destruction, but she was protected for 3 ½ years (see Revelation 12:14-16). The crown of 12 stars on her head represents the 12 tribes of Israel, each with 12,000 members, totaling 144,000; and symbolically these represent the first fruits of national Israel who are sealed in Christ (Revelation 7:4-8; 14:4).

The 144,000 which are known as the “first-fruits†of national Israel, will fulfill the last half of the 70 weeks of Daniel by confirming the covenant with Messiah the Prince (Jesus) during the time of God’s wrath upon the Gentiles. (See Daniel 9:24-27) The 144,000 are Messianic Jews, who, like some of their Jewish brethren in the days of Jesus’ 3 ½ year ministry, and confirmed the covenant with Jesus for the first half of the 70Th week, now complete the prophecy by doing the same during the last 3 ½ years before the Second Coming of Christ to earth. Like the manchild, they will rule and reign with Christ upon the earth for 1000 years during the period known as the Millennium.

What will happen to the lukewarm Laodicean church? These are the same as the “two witnesses†who prophesy for 3-21 years, and then are martyred for Christ (see Revelation 11:1-14). They are also seen in Revelation chapter 12 as the “remnant†of the woman’s seed upon whom the seven-headed dragon makes war with when he is unable to destroy the woman with the crown of 12 stars (see Revelation 12:17). These Laodicean believers are now compelled to become red hot, and repent of their lukewarmness, because they will be tried in the fires of the great tribulation (Rev.3: 18-19). These believers will sit down with Jesus on His throne, but they are not mentioned as reigning with Him like the manchild is.

SUMMARY:

The manchild of Revelation 12 is not Jesus Christ, but a body of overcomers in Christ, both male and female, made one with Him and with one another as they are led by God’s Spirit, and as they manifest His love to each other and the world. These believers escape the great tribulation, although some of them will suffer as martyrs before the Great tribulation. Their escape as the living will come when they are “seized toward the throne of the God†after the birth from the womb of the visible church.

Their distinctive qualities are:

1. Love for the truth (i.e.-God Himself through His Word and Spirit
2. Love for one another
3. Perseverance
4. Watch and pray
5. They have a love for Jesus Christ that is “hotâ€Â; like a bride for her groom - (See Song 6:8-10)
6. They won’t deny His Name
7. Have a little power, and an open door for ministry.
8. They have the same attitude as Jesus had; to be servants, meeting needs wherever the opportunity provides

The manchild is a direct contrast to the lukewarm Laodicean church that is weighed down by the cares of life, and so misses the upward calling in Christ. These Laodiceans are the same as the “remnant†of the woman’s seed, or the same as the two witnesses, upon whom the beast with seven heads wages war. They had the same opportunity as the manchild to be caught up, but they were foolish, and they hated their own brethren who were following the truth; this hatred was fueled by envy and jealousy.

The 144,000 are Messianic Jews who are the same as the woman with the crown of 12 stars who flees into the wilderness to be nourished by God for the 3 ½ year period of the wrath of the beast. Then, after the two witnesses are killed, the 144,000 are sealed during the wrath of God upon the Gentiles for 3 ½ years, thus fulfilling the prophecy of the 70 weeks of Daniel to confirm the covenant with Messiah the Prince for one week (i.e. a week of years), help bring in everlasting righteousness, and rule and reign with Christ and His manchild during the Millennium.

NOTE - The manchild only represents the overcomers at the end of time. There are believers throughout the history of the church who have attained to a state of full maturity, or completion for their era. The manchild group is significant because they develop into their mature state as a cooperative body of believers, not just as individuals.

Becoming the “man†& “child†God wants:

Eph 3:14-19 For this reason, I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man; so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fulness of God. (NAS)

Matt 18:2-6 And He called a child to Himself and set him before them, and said, “Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoever receives one such child in My name receives Me; but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it is better for him that a heavy millstone be hung around his neck, and that he be drowned in the depth of the sea. (NAS)

Acts 13:22 “And after He had removed him, He raised up David to be their king, concerning whom He also testified and said, ‘I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after My heart, who will do all My will.’ (NAS)

Luke 18:16-17 But Jesus called for them, saying, “Permit the children to come to Me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it at all. (NAS)

Rom 2:9-11 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, but glory and honor and peace to every man who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God. (NAS)

1 Thessalonians 5:2-9 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. While they are saying, “Peace and safety!†then destruction will come upon them suddenly like birth pangs upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day should overtake you like a thief; for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober. For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night. But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation. For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. (NAS)

Revelation 3:13 ‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’ (NAS)
 
The problem with the view of the woman as Israel giving birth to Christ is that it violates the context of chapter 12 of Revelation, which takes place during the time of the dragon with 7 heads (each head representing one of seven world governments that have existed since the time of Egypt).

The last, and seventh head of the dragon is said to be the “beast†(Revelation 13:1‑6) that “wages war†against the saints and overcomes them (Revelation 13:7). If the manchild in 12:5 was Christ, then he would have been caught up to the throne of God as soon as he was born from Mary’s womb, which did NOT happen.

The seven heads are not world goverments.The seven heads are seven mountains on which the city of Babylon the great sits.Now there are seven kings and these are those seven goverments you speak of but the beast is eighth and is of the seven.The beast dwells in the promised land today.The woman travailing is the church in Israel.Now that Benjamin Netanyahu has failed to establish a goverment with the moderates he will now do so with the extreemists.Thats not a good thing for the woman.
 
The 144,000 are Messianic Jews who are the same as the woman with the crown of 12 stars who flees into the wilderness to be nourished by God for the 3 ½ year period of the wrath of the beast. Then, after the two witnesses are killed, the 144,000 are sealed during the wrath of God upon the Gentiles for 3 ½ years, thus fulfilling the prophecy of the 70 weeks of Daniel to confirm the covenant with Messiah the Prince for one week (i.e. a week of years), help bring in everlasting righteousness, and rule and reign with Christ and His manchild during the Millennium.

The 144,000 dont flee from the beast.
Rev 12;17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman,and went to make war with the remnant of her seed,which keep the commandments of God,and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Luke 21;21
The let them which are on Judea flee into the mountains;and let them which are in the midst of it depart out;and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.


This is the woman fleeing in the above verse.

Luke 21;22-23
For these be the days of vengeance,that all things which are written may be forfilled.But woe unto them that are with child,and to them that give suck,in those days.For there shall be great distress in the land,and wrath upon this people.

The wrath of God upon those in Israel who worship the beast ,and recieve his mark in the above verse.
 
Shilohsfoal said:
The seven heads are not world goverments.The seven heads are seven mountains on which the city of Babylon the great sits.Now there are seven kings and these are those seven goverments you speak of but the beast is eighth and is of the seven.The beast dwells in the promised land today.

There are two appearances of the antichrist! Each appearance of the antichrist is associated with World Government. The bible indicates that the seventh head of the beast is the seventh world govt with Rome being the sixth. Without going into all the details it seems that the Church gives birth to the man-child during the manifestation of the 7th world govt. But the man-child brings down the world govt during its 3 1/2 year ministry (Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.). After the rapture the great tribulation starts where the 7th world govt is revived and is now the eighth.(Revelation 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.).
 
You must have missed the 7th.He had the greatest empire of them all.He once had 3/4 of the world under his control.

Rev17;10-11
And there are seven kings;five are fallen, and one is,and the other is not yet come;and when he cometh,he must continue a short space.And the beast that was,and is not,even he is the eighth ,and is of the seven,and goeth into perdition.

The seven kings that have reigned over Israel
Five that were fallen.
Egypt,Assyrian,Babylon,Persia,and Macedonia.
One that was at the time John wrote this-Rome.

Then came the Dispora

The one who would come and continue a short space,who the people of Israel were gatherd under-
Great britian.
The eighth is that kingdom that once was,then was not when John wrote this,but now is again today.
The kingdom that calls itself by the name of Israel.

It is the Israeli goverment whose kingdom is given to the saints of the most high.
I know alot of people in the US thinks highly of that antichrist goverment. Your not one of those are you?
 
Sorry, I'm a slow reader and don't have a day to read this. But the manchild is the 144,000 that are raptured right before the beginning of the Great Tribulation (Rev.12:5). They are here in Rev.7, in heaven in Rev.14, the middle of the Trib. is in Rev.12. The 144,000 were Raptured in Rev.12:5, and have no part in the last 3 1/2 yrs here on earth. The 2 witnesses have part in the last half, they were not killed and raptured in the middle, but the end.
 
XTruth said:
Sorry, I'm a slow reader and don't have a day to read this. But the manchild is the 144,000 that are raptured right before the beginning of the Great Tribulation (Rev.12:5). They are here in Rev.7, in heaven in Rev.14, the middle of the Trib. is in Rev.12. The 144,000 were Raptured in Rev.12:5, and have no part in the last 3 1/2 yrs here on earth. The 2 witnesses have part in the last half, they were not killed and raptured in the middle, but the end.

Pharoah isnt going to let them go.
The plagues will fall upon Egypt and he still wont let them go.


Rev 13;10
He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity;he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword.Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
 
jsbdpmc,
That is a lot to digest...it will take me a while. But I know I will have questions.

How do you come up with this? Did someone teach you, or does God show you these things?
I still have to be taught...but God opens up my eyes to truth. It just takes me a long time to take it in. It amazes me how some people can get revelation about scriptures.
 
I just wanted to add this:

Rev. 12:5
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a ( rod of iron ).

Rev. 19:11-16
And he shall rule them with a ( rod of iron ).
 
4thangelofEuphrates said:
I just wanted to add this:

Rev. 12:5
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a ( rod of iron ).

Rev. 19:11-16
And he shall rule them with a ( rod of iron ).
I brought that up on another thread... I was taught the manchild was Jesus. But we will also rule with Christ/the bride/body of Christ..and judge angels.

So is the manchild..Jesus? The Bride? The 144,000?
 
Shilohsfoal said:
XTruth said:
Sorry, I'm a slow reader and don't have a day to read this. But the manchild is the 144,000 that are raptured right before the beginning of the Great Tribulation (Rev.12:5). They are here in Rev.7, in heaven in Rev.14, the middle of the Trib. is in Rev.12. The 144,000 were Raptured in Rev.12:5, and have no part in the last 3 1/2 yrs here on earth. The 2 witnesses have part in the last half, they were not killed and raptured in the middle, but the end.

Pharoah isnt going to let them go.
The plagues will fall upon Egypt and he still wont let them go.


Rev 13;10
He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity;he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword.Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Hi,
I'm trying to make sense out of your post, but I can't. What's Pharoah have to do w/ the Tribulation? When God decides to catch one or 144,000 away, no one can stop that. Rev.13:10 is after Rev.12:5, when they are caught up. The saints here are the Great Tribulation saints. The manchild is caught up right before the Great Tribulation...so you can see my confusion by your post :confused :help
 
I don't see the 144,000 anywhere but on earth, with the Lord, on Mt. Sion, which is a physical mountain on earth, according to many passages in the OT.

Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

The voice in 14:2 must be something or sombody(s) other than the 144, 000.
 
XTruth said:
Shilohsfoal said:
XTruth said:
Sorry, I'm a slow reader and don't have a day to read this. But the manchild is the 144,000 that are raptured right before the beginning of the Great Tribulation (Rev.12:5). They are here in Rev.7, in heaven in Rev.14, the middle of the Trib. is in Rev.12. The 144,000 were Raptured in Rev.12:5, and have no part in the last 3 1/2 yrs here on earth. The 2 witnesses have part in the last half, they were not killed and raptured in the middle, but the end.

Pharoah isnt going to let them go.
The plagues will fall upon Egypt and he still wont let them go.


Rev 13;10
He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity;he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword.Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Hi,
I'm trying to make sense out of your post, but I can't. What's Pharoah have to do w/ the Tribulation? When God decides to catch one or 144,000 away, no one can stop that. Rev.13:10 is after Rev.12:5, when they are caught up. The saints here are the Great Tribulation saints. The manchild is caught up right before the Great Tribulation...so you can see my confusion by your post :confused :help

Pharoah is not going to let them go.
God will have to send witnesses to Egypt to say to Pharoah "Let my people go".
The witnesses will plague the land of Egypt.

Rev 11;8-10
And thier dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city,which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt,where also our Lord was crucified.
And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see thier dead bodies three days and a half,and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them,and make merry,and shall send gifts one to another,because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

You know how the story goes .
Have you not read of God's chosen people,
The priestly nation?

They will be singing the song of Moses and of the Lamb.
 
Shilohsfoal said:
Pharoah is not going to let them go.
God will have to send witnesses to Egypt to say to Pharoah "Let my people go".
The witnesses will plague the land of Egypt.

Rev 11;8-10
And thier dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city,which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt,where also our Lord was crucified.
And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see thier dead bodies three days and a half,and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them,and make merry,and shall send gifts one to another,because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

You know how the story goes .
Have you not read of God's chosen people,
The priestly nation?

They will be singing the song of Moses and of the Lamb.
I guess you are saying the manchild is the 2 witnesses??? That would be incorrect for many reasons.

Are you basing Pharoah's interaction of the Exodus to the Tribulation because spiritually, Jerusalem is called Egypt and Sodom because it is under Gentile control for the last 3 1/2 yrs and sex and religious perversions will be predominant sins ending this age (Mat.24:37-39; Lk.17:26-30). What about Sodom??? Where does Pharoah fit there??? Was Jesus crucified in literal Egypt? Was He crucified in literal Sodom? Would you explain yourself, I don't understand what you are connecting or why you have tried to connect what you have.
 
awaken said:
4thangelofEuphrates said:
I just wanted to add this:

Rev. 12:5
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a ( rod of iron ).

Rev. 19:11-16
And he shall rule them with a ( rod of iron ).
I brought that up on another thread... I was taught the manchild was Jesus. But we will also rule with Christ/the bride/body of Christ..and judge angels.

So is the manchild..Jesus? The Bride? The 144,000?


Dont forget Rev 2:26 & 27, And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

27And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
 
Vic C. said:
I don't see the 144,000 anywhere but on earth, with the Lord, on Mt. Sion, which is a physical mountain on earth, according to many passages in the OT.

Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

The voice in 14:2 must be something or sombody(s) other than the 144, 000.

I'm about to take you to school, make sure and grab your bag lunch.
Rev.14:1-5
"1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

If you aren't convinced by the underlined phrases alone that they are in heaven, then just raise your hand and ask your question.

There is a heavenly Mt.Sion (Rev.14:1; Rom.11:26; Heb.12:22)

Heb.12:22-23
"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the
city of the living God
, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect," ...all in heaven

Earthly Mt. Zion is not mentioned in Revelation.
The manchild, or the 144,000 will have been taken to heaven (Rev.12:5).
The Lamb is never pictured on earth in Revelation (Rev.5:6).
All Raptured people go to the heavenly Mt. Sion (Heb.11:10, 13-16; Jn.14:1-3; Rev.21-22).
Christ will come out of Mt. Sion to earth at His 2nd advent (Rom.11:26).

All of that just to say again...the 144,000 are sealed on earth in Revelation 7:1-8. They are in heaven in Rev.14:1-5. The beginning of the Great Tribulation is Rev.12:7. The manchild is the 144,000 that is caught up in Rev.12:5. Nothing is said of their death. Jesus isn't being born and Raptured during the Tribulation. The manchild is the 144,000
 
I might as well join in too :)

"1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion,(Kingdom of God) and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
Eze 9:4 And Jehovah said unto him, Go through the midst of the city,(we are the city on a hill, mount Sion ) through the midst of Jerusalem,(we are the new Jerusalem, that comes out of heaven ) and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry over all the abominations (apostasy ) that are done in the midst thereof. ( Christians who weep for the state that the church is in today, get marked )


2And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.(Redeemed from the earth, where earth = flesh. World (cosmos) is used when God is speaking of the planet )
4These are they which were not defiled with women;(Denominations, the church is likened to a woman ) for they are virgins. (They received no doctrine from a man, but they are virgins , only knowing the Word ) These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth.(The Lamb goes to the cross, these are they that took up their cross and followed Jesus to death to self ) These were redeemed from among men,(They come out of all mankind, they are not the 144000 Jews ) being the firstfruits (There will be second fruits, third fruits, but they are first ) unto God and to the Lamb.
5And in their mouth was found no guile:(Because they speak only the Word. The Word alone is truth ) for they are without fault (Because they have accepted the redemption that Jesus brought as a gift )before the throne of God.

Of course they are in heaven, but not in their bodies. We all know that we are seated in the heavenlies with Christ(Eph) . They have overcome and now spiritually are seated in God's throne with Jesus (Not a real chair, but a position of authority )Rev 3:21 He that overcometh, I will give to him to sit down with me in my throne, as I also overcame, and sat down with my Father in his throne.
Jesus was sitting on the Father's throne even when He was still walking on this earth. That is where the miracles came from. He had authority.

So we are talking about the man child, first fruits, to manifest Christ on this planet in full.

More will follow during the tribulation as the Bride gets taught the unleavened bread of the Word while she is in the wilderness (tribulation ), where a place has been prepared for her

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that there they may nourish her a thousand two hundred and threescore days. (They, being the man child first fruit company )
 
Rev 3:21 He that overcometh, I will give to him to sit down with me in my throne, as I also overcame, and sat down with my Father in his throne. Rev 12:5 And she was delivered of a son, a man child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and unto his throne.

God rules from your heart. The Kingdom is in your heart. The firstfruits will be "caught up" to a place of authority, while they still walk the earth. They will rule the nations of the earth with a rod of iron, because God will be IN them (Christ in you is the hope of THIS glory, that is to come in our day) They will speak the Word and the Word will come to pass, because they will manifest Christ.
 
Face it, there are 144,000 interpretations of scripture. :gah

I'm about to take you to school, make sure and grab your bag lunch.

If you aren't convinced by the underlined phrases alone that they are in heaven, then just raise your hand and ask your question.
Save your condescending comments, X. If you can't come to the End Times Forum with a humble heart and the willingness to accept that there are others who believe differently than you, then we'd rather you not post here.
 
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