Who Is The Root We're Grafted Into?

[D-D-W]

Well that's a different approach, Lol. I think the apostles (Paul especially) were REALLY guilty of this, but I do admit that life gets easier without it.

NOT a "different" approach. The PROPER approach. Rabbi Lord Jonathan Sachs (former chief rabbi of the UK) summed it up this way. (from memory, not his exact words)

Hebrew thought brings things together for meaning while Greek thought divides things apart for analysis. IT is in part from the Hebrew language having no vowels. You have to have other words around to be able to tell what word it is.

The apostles including Paul were native Aramaic speakers which is related to Hebrew. No vowels. Written right to left. They also grew up in the synagogue system. So of course they would have used a Hebrew analytic style rather than a Greek one.

ETA: I guess I should add one more wrinkle to this comment. Greek thought is linear and most often only has one meaning. But that is not true at all of Hebrew thought and all thought based on Semitic languages, including ancient Chaldean and Arabic, along with Hebrew and Aramaic. I had a friend in college who was Suni Muslim and he explained to me the Koran could not be translated into any other language since it had 7 layers of meaning, all simultaneously true and you could take a sentence from one layer and join it to the next sentence from any other layer for another true statement. There was no way to translate that and cover every possible combination.

The Hebrew bible (the OT) does not have 7 layers of meaning; it has 4 recognized layers. All are true. They are:

Peshat - plain meaning
Remez - an implied meaning
Drash - a teaching
Sod - mystical meaning

This was understood by the Jews of the first century. And even though their words come to us thru the Greek language of the day, they still used this system of meanings. It was part of the fabric of the culture.

 

[Hidden In Him]

The Hebrew bible (the OT) does not have 7 layers of meaning; it has 4 recognized layers. All are true. They are:

Peshat - plain meaning
Remez - an implied meaning
Drash - a teaching
Sod - mystical meaning

This is interesting.

About the post you were quoting, I had to go back and read through several times to remember what was being talked about, but my implied meaning to him was that Paul used Sod in his application of OT texts to prove out New Testament teachings. I'm not sure Hopeful's position even favors Peshat, as the meaning behind the use of the word "root" here is not really plain. Like the parables, it is an implied meaning of something, and the question becomes what.

 

[eddif]

NOT a "different" approach. The PROPER approach. Rabbi Lord Jonathan Sachs (former chief rabbi of the UK) summed it up this way. (from memory, not his exact words)

Hebrew thought brings things together for meaning while Greek thought divides things apart for analysis. IT is in part from the Hebrew language having no vowels. You have to have other words around to be able to tell what word it is.

The apostles including Paul were native Aramaic speakers which is related to Hebrew. No vowels. Written right to left. They also grew up in the synagogue system. So of course they would have used a Hebrew analytic style rather than a Greek one.

ETA: I guess I should add one more wrinkle to this comment. Greek thought is linear and most often only has one meaning. But that is not true at all of Hebrew thought and all thought based on Semitic languages, including ancient Chaldean and Arabic, along with Hebrew and Aramaic. I had a friend in college who was Suni Muslim and he explained to me the Koran could not be translated into any other language since it had 7 layers of meaning, all simultaneously true and you could take a sentence from one layer and join it to the next sentence from any other layer for another true statement. There was no way to translate that and cover every possible combination.

The Hebrew bible (the OT) does not have 7 layers of meaning; it has 4 recognized layers. All are true. They are:

Peshat - plain meaning
Remez - an implied meaning
Drash - a teaching
Sod - mystical meaning

This was understood by the Jews of the first century. And even though their words come to us thru the Greek language of the day, they still used this system of meanings. It was part of the fabric of the culture.

Got to love Pardes
With 4 levels,

Got to love the parable of the Sower
Two levels for multiple items

Concepts are seen in multiple contexts
Pay the preacher is seen in:
Ox treading out corn
Plowman
Thresher

Oh well I am just a grafted in Mississippi redneck. Would sure like to see others grafted in.

Never forget Arron’s rod that budded.
Where was the root?

Would the valley of dry bones fit somewhere?

eddif

 

[Becky1]

Rev_22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

 

[eddif]

Rev_22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Well just blow my redneck mind plum away.

Solved the riddle of root.
All the following:
Root
And
Offspring (vine ?)
Plus
Morning Star

No wonder I have been chasing my tail for 25 years on this subject.

Thanks Jefferson

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Hidden In Him]

Well just blow my redneck mind plum away.

Solved the riddle of root.
All the following:
Root
And
Offspring (vine ?)
Plus
Morning Star

Yeah, Post #18 supports this view as well. That one closed the argument for me pretty much, because it is from the same epistle as the one I was quoting in the OP.

Becky's is simply more direct support of it from the Lord Himself.

 

[eddif]

Yeah, Post #18 supports this view as well. That one closed the argument for me pretty much, because it is from the same epistle as the one I was quoting in the OP.

Becky's is simply more direct support of it from the Lord Himself.

In post 18 it is somewhat hidden to me. However, lots of stuff just comes to me while mowing the lawn.

eddif

 

[Hidden In Him]

In post 18 it is somewhat hidden to me. However, lots of stuff just comes to me while mowing the lawn.

eddif

With me, it's in the bathtub.

I believe the Lord waits to speak with us until He knows He'll have our undivided attention.

 

[JLB]

Who is the "root" Paul said the Gentiles were being grafted into in Romans 11? The following is just a thread I'm creating without having fully formulated my conclusion yet, though I do believe I know based on the context. But I thought I would posit it as food for thought while mulling it over.

Blessings in Christ to all who respond,
Hidden In Him

Here is the context in Romans:

16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump also; and if the root is holy, so the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? 25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; 27 For this is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins.” 28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. (Romans 11:16-28)

The Lord Jesus Christ, and the covenant he made with Abraham is that root.


And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. Galatians 3:8-9


And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect.
Galatians 3:17

 

[eddif]

With me, it's in the bathtub.

I believe the Lord waits to speak with us until He knows He'll have our undivided attention.

I guess he sometimes speaks to me:

I interrupt your program with this important announcement.

I am sure you have a point too. His rod and staff direct us.

eddif

 

[eddif]

NOT a "different" approach. The PROPER approach. Rabbi Lord Jonathan Sachs (former chief rabbi of the UK) summed it up this way. (from memory, not his exact words)

Hebrew thought brings things together for meaning while Greek thought divides things apart for analysis. IT is in part from the Hebrew language having no vowels. You have to have other words around to be able to tell what word it is.

The apostles including Paul were native Aramaic speakers which is related to Hebrew. No vowels. Written right to left. They also grew up in the synagogue system. So of course they would have used a Hebrew analytic style rather than a Greek one.

ETA: I guess I should add one more wrinkle to this comment. Greek thought is linear and most often only has one meaning. But that is not true at all of Hebrew thought and all thought based on Semitic languages, including ancient Chaldean and Arabic, along with Hebrew and Aramaic. I had a friend in college who was Suni Muslim and he explained to me the Koran could not be translated into any other language since it had 7 layers of meaning, all simultaneously true and you could take a sentence from one layer and join it to the next sentence from any other layer for another true statement. There was no way to translate that and cover every possible combination.

The Hebrew bible (the OT) does not have 7 layers of meaning; it has 4 recognized layers. All are true. They are:

Peshat - plain meaning
Remez - an implied meaning
Drash - a teaching
Sod - mystical meaning

This was understood by the Jews of the first century. And even though their words come to us thru the Greek language of the day, they still used this system of meanings. It was part of the fabric of the culture.

Would PaRDeS not actually fit both Hebrew and Greek thought patterns.

The one new man of Ephesians is made of Jew and Gentile.

I have read that PaRDeS was later in history. No matter. I do see the levels and the parables of two levels of multiple subjects inn one pile. Almost like two meats in one pot (which is sure not Law). Meaning seed is a heavy doctrine - ground is a heavy doctrine - sower is a heavy doctrine. Are they all meats? No. Are they meats of the Word? I will leave that answer to you.

It is all very interesting.

eddif

 

[christian1724]

The Lord Jesus Christ, and the covenant he made with Abraham is that root.

Our Father established (and is establishing) the Kingdom of Zion. His Word (Christ) is the King of that kingdom. He is the root of that kingdom and therefore is in the only position to identify the those who are grafted in. And He does identify them...

He says that the 'daughter of His kingdom of Zion' recognizes Him as their King and Savior who entered into the kingdom "just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass." - Zechariah 9:9 , Matthew 21:5

Zechariah 9:9-10 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass. 10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.

Matthew 21:5 Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass.

Sadly, the daughter of Jerusalem was not mentioned at that time. This prophecy was therefore only partially fulfilled at the first advent and will be completed at some point.

The only people in the world who hold this belief are the Truth seeking Christians whom He referred to as the "daughter of Zion".

Truth seeking believers in God's Word represent the daughter of Zion.

 

[eddif]

Our Father established (and is establishing) the Kingdom of Zion. His Word (Christ) is the King of that kingdom. He is the root of that kingdom and therefore is in the only position to identify the those who are grafted in. And He does identify them...

The concept is that any part of God that carries the essence of the will of God is God:
God the Father
God the Son
God the Holy Spirit

The root, the vine, morning star (moon) are all the same. The Father sent the only begotten Son. The Son then carried the will of the Father to the branches at Pentecost ( the flame).

The root is in the ground, the vine is twisted by service as it supports the branches. The branches bear fruit because of the quickening spirit Jesus became.

My wife said I was talking about 4th grade science. I agree the things of God are truly seen in what he has created .

We tend to want to look at our branch we are, but it is actually the source that enables our branch to live and give glory to the source.

Help me out here.

eddif

 

[christian1724]

...
We tend to want to look at our branch we are, but it is actually the source that enables our branch to live and give glory to the source.

Help me out here.

My brief comment probably doesn't seem to be well established, I understand that. It's difficult to speak Bible subjects in short comments and sound bites. I'll try to lay out my general beliefs as briefly as I can and if you're interested in going over them with me then we might approach it smaller chunks on another thread.

I've noticed that you often speak using symbolic phrases.

God usually gives us the Truth through the scriptures and teachers. There is a lot of symbology used in these scriptures and He surely intends for us to seek out those truths through study and prayer. (otherwise He wouldn't have bothered to leave us the scriptures.) We study hoping to learn the meaning of these symbols.

Through my studies, I have come to some, let's say, general beliefs/conclusions. Again, keep in mind that we're having to speak in sound bites here. It's not like we're sitting over a long cup of coffee in deep discussion over the details of what we believe, just hitting some generalities. Here are some of them (though I am open to relevant criticism/correction):

• The house of Israel (prophetically called Ephraim, Joseph, lost sheep, etc) and the house of Judah are not the same. 'Jews' are a name given to the people of the southern kingdom of Israel (house of Judah). Jerusalem (prophetically speaking) are the remnant of the house of Judah who remain in the land after the Assyrians took most of Judah into captivity (so they are a subset of the Jews).
• The Jews are only a few of God's 'chosen' people (family). The rest of the house of Israel make up the largest portion of God's 'chosen people'. They are currently scattered among the nations and most don't even know they are God's people. Most Jews and Christians believe that God has rejected the house of Israel and will no longer have mercy on them. (See Loammi and Loruhamah in Hosea). But He will receive them back again as His people and will again have mercy on them.
• The terms Zion and Jerusalem (when used prophetically) are not necessarily synonymous terms.
• The house of Israel make up the Christian nations in modern times (generally speaking) and form a core of believers in those nations.
• Jesus is the Truth and the Word of God and is also the Light of the world. He is the Light (Truth) of the world that God revealed in the third verse of the Bible as a remedy for the previous verse to it. Not all have the eyes and ears to see/hear this Light and Truth.
• Jesus represents the kingdom of Zion which God is preparing for those who have faith in His Word.
• Jesus is the Tree of Life. Some branches are natural to the tree (All Israel for example) and some will be grafted into the tree (gentiles). Some branches may be pruned away.
• All "they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus" are the branches of this tree and bear fruit (some more than others?).
• Truth is that which is reliable (God's Word). Truth is therefore eternal (it is not created nor does it end or lose it's reliability). Truth is objective (not subjective). These things are logical conclusions.
• God says that He considers Ephraim His firstborn. Ephraim is a descendant of Joseph, not Judah. Ephraim is not a Jew.
• Jesus said, at His first advent, that He was sent unto "the lost sheep of the house of Israel". He teaches that the people who would receive Him are the "daughter of Zion". The "daughter of Jerusalem" is not mentioned (see Zechariah 9:9, Matthew 21:5). Also, He grieved that Jerusalem had not recognized the time of their visitation (mere moments after he had declared who the daughter of Zion was.

I'll just stop there since it is starting to get pretty long. Hope that helps clarify where I'm coming from. If you have objections to anything, we should probably take it up in another thread.

Take care

 

[eddif]

the southern kingdom of Israel (house of Judah). Jerusalem (prophetically speaking) are the remnant of the house of Judah who remain in the land after the Assyrians took most of Judah into captivity (so they are a subset of the Jews).

I literally see through a glass darkly. I only have insight granted by grace.

Most conversations of dispersions end with the Assyrian captivity and dispersion (?). There is a glimmer of hope seen in the early punishment dispersions.
But
The dispersion right before the 400 years of silence ( right before John the Baptist and Jesus) is Not the same type of dispersion. This is what I would like to discuss. (Beyond Assyria and Headed to The New Jerusalem).

Of course this will place me in a position that I feel very led to do, but inadequate to do with human intelligence.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[eddif]

Beyond Assyria and Headed to The New Jerusalem).

Hidden In Him
Is this concept inside what you feel fits inside this thread?

Does a new thread need to be started. I actually feel I will be discussing the true root.

eddif

 

[eddif]

Psalms 51:17 kjv
17. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

The dispersion preceding the 400 years of silence are people headed toward this broken heart.

eddif

 

[eddif]

Psalms 126:6 kjv
6. He that goeth forth and weepeth, bearing precious seed, shall doubtless come again with rejoicing, bringing his sheaves with him.

Beyond Assyria.
Amos 3:7 kjv
7. Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

Luke 16:16 kjv
16. The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

eddif

 

[eddif]

God usually gives us the Truth through the scriptures and teachers. There is a lot of symbology used in these scriptures and He surely intends for us to seek out those truths through study and prayer.

Romans 1:19 kjv
19. Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

The scripture says man has the information about God from creation.

Roots are part of creation.

Surely Abraham knew about the root while he wandered in the promised land looking for a city whose builder and maker was God.

eddif

 

[eddif]

NOT a "different" approach. The PROPER approach. Rabbi Lord Jonathan Sachs (former chief rabbi of the UK) summed it up this way. (from memory, not his exact words)

Hebrew thought brings things together for meaning while Greek thought divides things apart for analysis. IT is in part from the Hebrew language having no vowels. You have to have other words around to be able to tell what word it is.

The apostles including Paul were native Aramaic speakers which is related to Hebrew. No vowels. Written right to left. They also grew up in the synagogue system. So of course they would have used a Hebrew analytic style rather than a Greek one.

ETA: I guess I should add one more wrinkle to this comment. Greek thought is linear and most often only has one meaning. But that is not true at all of Hebrew thought and all thought based on Semitic languages, including ancient Chaldean and Arabic, along with Hebrew and Aramaic. I had a friend in college who was Suni Muslim and he explained to me the Koran could not be translated into any other language since it had 7 layers of meaning, all simultaneously true and you could take a sentence from one layer and join it to the next sentence from any other layer for another true statement. There was no way to translate that and cover every possible combination.

The Hebrew bible (the OT) does not have 7 layers of meaning; it has 4 recognized layers. All are true. They are:

Peshat - plain meaning
Remez - an implied meaning
Drash - a teaching
Sod - mystical meaning

This was understood by the Jews of the first century. And even though their words come to us thru the Greek language of the day, they still used this system of meanings. It was part of the fabric of the culture.

Have you considered God speaks in many ways?

1 Corinthians 14:21 kjv
21. In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

Romans1:20

eddif