Who was FIRST in the Body of Christ ????

[dan p]

Hi to all , and there are many who say that the Body of Christ began in :

#1 , In Genesis .

#2 , Began at Acts 2 with the day of Pentecost !

#3 , Began in Act 9 , with Paul , and this is a Pauline Dispensational position !

#4 , The Acts 11 position !!!

#5 , The Acts 13 , position !

#6 , And the Acts 28, Hyper-dispensational position !!

I believe that it began in Acts 9:5-19 with Paul .

Lets turn to 1 Tim 1:15-16 .

1) Faithful ( is ) the Word and worthy of all reception , that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners , of whom I am FIRST .

2) But for this reason I was given mercy , in order that in me FIRST Christ Jesus might show forth all longsuffering for a PATTERN of the ones coming to believe on Him unto Everlasting life .

#1 , First let me say that Translations ARE NOT INSPIRED , and most Greek words have more than one meaning .

#2 , If anyone does a word study on the Greek word CHARIS , you will find 12 different words that are used . It is the word Grace .

#3 , FIRST , THE USE OF " CHIEF " in verse 15 , is not a good translation .

#4 , '" Chief " would imply that Paul was the worst sinner , and indeed he was a bad one , as he had stated in verse 13 and in other places , but this is NOT the emphasis in verses 15-17 , which is a complete paragragh in itself .

#5 , PROTOS means First !!

#6 , PROTOS means Chief !!!

#7 , The Greek word translated " chief " is PROTOS meaning " FIRST " and in a seconary sense " chief " when speaking of RANK or DIGNITY , which is not the case HERE .

#8 , PROTOS is the strongest of the 4 Greek words translated " FIRST " in the KJV . It is used 2 times in this passage , once in verse 15 and once in verse 16 for emphasis .

#9 , What this passage REALLY is teachs is that Paul was the FIRST one to be SAVED in this Dispensation of grace , and the first member of the assembly , the Body of Christ .

#10 , Paul is the one that reveals that THERE is a Body of Christ !!!

#11 , Paul was saved by the Lord himself and not by the preaching of the 12 Apostles or by the preaching od the Gospel of the Kingdom !!!

#12 , Rom 1:1 proves that PREMISE !!!

#13 , And 1 Cor 15: 8 PROVES my Premis also !!!

 

[glorydaz]

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many.

There were believers filled with the Spirit before Paul, so I can't see how you say Paul was the first in the body. Paul's comment about being the foremost of sinners fits in with saying he was the least of the apostles and least of all saints.....he was foremost because he persecuted the "church" (which is the body of Christ).

1 Corinthians 15:9
For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

Ephesians 3:8
Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

 

[cyberjosh]

Why did you not include John 20:22 when Jesus breathed on the disciples and gave them the Holy Spirit after his Resurrection? Were they not the first to partake of the Spirit of the one who said if we loved Him, "My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him" (John 14:23)? How then are they exempt from the statement "For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink" (1 Corinthians 12:13)? This is the same Spirit Jesus himself spoke of earlier in John's Gospel saying, "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive" (John 7:38-39) which was fulfilled in John 20:22 to his faithful disciples, among whom Judas was not because he had fallen away. The Apostles who were with Jesus during his earthly ministry, and as was later confirmed at Pentecost, were among the first to partake of the new life and living body of Christ. John knew this and later confirmed it in his epistles about how we can know we are "in Him". They were given full communion with the living Lord that day through the gift of the Holy Spirit.

~Josh

 

[prough91]

Why did you not include John 20:22 when Jesus breathed on the disciples and gave them the Holy Spirit after his Resurrection?
~Josh

Cause that would have ruined his whole argument.

 

[Bent Radar]

This is an interesting topic, dan p. I am of the Acts 2 persuasion.

But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive[/i]" (John 7:38-39) which was fulfilled in John 20:22 to his faithful disciples, ...

That's a good point, but I don't think that the church had 'officially' started yet at this time. The disciples obviously received the Spirit in some way, but I'm not convinced that it was in the same capacity (function) as it occurred later at Pentecost. Was this "breathing" of the Spirit the same thing as the baptism of the Spirit that places one in the body? I would say no.

John the Baptist taught that Jesus would come later and baptize with the Spirit. I believe that this is a reference to Pentecost and subsequent occurrences.

I recognize the challenge of John 20:22, but all things considered, I'm convinced that the building of the church commenced at Pentecost. Micah said he had the Spirit of the Lord, but he was not baptized into the body of Christ the way that we are today. There seems to be different operations of the Spirit, and I do not think that John 20:22 is talking about being baptized into the body.

This article basically sums up my view: http://bible.org/question/did-church-be ... st-acts-24

 

[cyberjosh]

That's a good point, but I don't think that the church had 'officially' started yet at this time. The disciples obviously received the Spirit in some way, but I'm not convinced that it was in the same capacity (function) as it occurred later at Pentecost. Was this "breathing" of the Spirit the same thing as the baptism of the Spirit that places one in the body? I would say no.

John the Baptist taught that Jesus would come later and baptize with the Spirit. I believe that this is a reference to Pentecost and subsequent occurrences.

I recognize the challenge of John 20:22, but all things considered, I'm convinced that the building of the church commenced at Pentecost. Micah said he had the Spirit of the Lord, but he was not baptized into the body of Christ the way that we are today. There seems to be different operations of the Spirit, and I do not think that John 20:22 is talking about being baptized into the body.

Yeah, John 20:22 been a point of musing for me too but I've increasingly found it hard to separate being given the Holy Spirit, the spiritual salvation and regeneration of the believer, and Baptism in the Spirit - and I believe that every believer has been Baptized in the Spirit even if they are not actively "being filled" as the command goes. If you are interested read this paper that I put on my website which I wrote about the Baptism of the Spirit: The Purpose of Baptism. It may be easier to read if you click the link to the *.doc Word document form of the paper. Tell me your thoughts if you read it.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[dan p]

Why did you not include John 20:22 when Jesus breathed on the disciples and gave them the Holy Spirit after his Resurrection? Were they not the first to partake of the Spirit of the one who said if we loved Him, "My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him" (John 14:23)? How then are they exempt from the statement "For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink" (1 Corinthians 12:13)? This is the same Spirit Jesus himself spoke of earlier in John's Gospel saying, "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive" (John 7:38-39) which was fulfilled in John 20:22 to his faithful disciples, among whom Judas was not because he had fallen away. The Apostles who were with Jesus during his earthly ministry, and as was later confirmed at Pentecost, were among the first to partake of the new life and living body of Christ. John knew this and later confirmed it in his epistles about how we can know we are "in Him". They were given full communion with the living Lord that day through the gift of the Holy Spirit.

~Josh

Hi Josh , and my answer will be HARD for most and here it is !!!!

Because Matthew , Mark , Luke , John and 90% of Acts ( CONTEXT ) IS ALL Israel .

I always look at the #1, Context #2 , Historical #3 , Dispensational #4 , Grammarical #5 Literal

#6 , 2 Tim 2:15 #7 , and Phil 1:10 where excellant really means " differing " .

Where in John is the Body of Christ , MENTIONED ??????

1 Cor 12:13 , is how we enter the Body of Christ !!!!

In 1 Cor 12:13 , what do you say the Baptism means in this passage ???? Wet or Dry ???

 

[cyberjosh]

Hi Josh , and my answer will be HARD for most and here it is !!!!

Because Matthew , Mark , Luke , John and 90% of Acts ( CONTEXT ) IS ALL Israel .

I always look at the #1, Context #2 , Historical #3 , Dispensational #4 , Grammarical #5 Literal

#6 , 2 Tim 2:15 #7 , and Phil 1:10 where excellant really means " differing " .

I understand that Jesus was called to evangelize to the Jews, but your statement here disregards the universal appeal of the Gospel - the same Gospel which these Apostles and Paul used to preach to others - especially Gentiles. What you just told me (in effect) was that Jesus died only for the Jews - but this is clearly contradicted in John 12:32 when Jesus said, "But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." Perhaps you would like to elaborate, because I'm sure you did not mean what it appeared you meant. Surely you also took into consideration that the Gospel of Luke was written for a Greek audience, and even directed toward a Greek (Theophilus), which includes Acts? Think about that.

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

Where in John is the Body of Christ , MENTIONED ??????

As I mentioned in your Romans 1:1 thread:

Also try not to get too hooked on "catch phrases". Many other equivalent ideas can be expressed for the idea of being united in Christ as one body, which includes the Church itself, and the Baptism of the Spirit.

Don't base your theology on strictly terms and phrases, you must understand spiritual principles and understand when the same principle is expressed in different ways. I could similarly ask where in the Bible is the TRINITY mentioned? And yet the Trinity is a reality.

1 Cor 12:13 , is how we enter the Body of Christ !!!!

In 1 Cor 12:13 , what do you say the Baptism means in this passage ???? Wet or Dry ???

If you are interested in my view about that then read my paper that I posted a link to in this post above.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[mutzrein]

Am I the only one does NOT accept that John 20:22 tells us that the disciples were given the Holy Spirit?

 

[handy]

1 Cor 12:13 , is how we enter the Body of Christ !!!!

In 1 Cor 12:13 , what do you say the Baptism means in this passage ???? Wet or Dry ???

Wet or dry, Paul was neither the first to be baptized by the Spirit nor the first to be water baptized.

 

[dan p]

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many.

There were believers filled with the Spirit before Paul, so I can't see how you say Paul was the first in the body. Paul's comment about being the foremost of sinners fits in with saying he was the least of the apostles and least of all saints.....he was foremost because he persecuted the "church" (which is the body of Christ).

1 Corinthians 15:9
For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

Ephesians 3:8
Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

Hi glorydaz , Paul is First , because Paul said he was in Rom 1:1 ; 1 Tim 1:15-16 and in 1 Cor 15:8 !!!!

There are to ways to receive the Holy Spirit :
#1 , like in 1 Cor 12:13 , INDWELLETH by the Holy Spirit !!!

#2 , to recieve the POWER of the Holy Spirit , like in Matt 3:11 and Acts 1:8 or Acts 6:8 , which is NOT the INDWELLING of the Holy Spirit .

#3 , We are sealed by the Holy Spirit , like in Eph 1:13 , which is different !!!!!

#4 , You have to check the Greek , and there is a difference between these 2 phrases ;

1) Holy Spirit , means the POWER of the Holy Spirit !!!!

2) When it uses the Greek Article , and the article is the word ( THE ) then it is talking about the Person of the Holy Spirit , AND #1 and #2 are different !!!!

 

[glorydaz]

[quote="1 Corinthians 12:13-14":3nh32lej]For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many.

There were believers filled with the Spirit before Paul, so I can't see how you say Paul was the first in the body. Paul's comment about being the foremost of sinners fits in with saying he was the least of the apostles and least of all saints.....he was foremost because he persecuted the "church" (which is the body of Christ).

1 Corinthians 15:9
For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

Ephesians 3:8
Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

Hi glorydaz , Paul is First , because Paul said he was in Rom 1:1 ; 1 Tim 1:15-16 and in 1 Cor 15:8 !!!!

There are to ways to receive the Holy Spirit :
#1 , like in 1 Cor 12:13 , INDWELLETH by the Holy Spirit !!!

#2 , to recieve the POWER of the Holy Spirit , like in Matt 3:11 and Acts 1:8 or Acts 6:8 , which is NOT the INDWELLING of the Holy Spirit .

#3 , We are sealed by the Holy Spirit , like in Eph 1:13 , which is different !!!!!

#4 , You have to check the Greek , and there is a difference between these 2 phrases ;

1) Holy Spirit , means the POWER of the Holy Spirit !!!!

2) When it uses the Greek Article , and the article is the word ( THE ) then it is talking about the Person of the Holy Spirit , AND #1 and #2 are different !!!![/quote:3nh32lej]
Maybe I'm not understanding what you're saying.
If a person does not have the abiding Spirit of Christ, they aren't born again or saved.

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Are you saying a person isn't saved when he "receives" the Holy Spirit...that he only receives the power of the HS? The people who were at Pentecost weren't yet saved??????

 

[handy]

Paul is First , because Paul said he was in Rom 1:1 ; 1 Tim 1:15-16 and in 1 Cor 15:8 !!!!

Romans 1:1 : Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God..

Nothing here about being the "first" in the Body of Christ.

1 Timothy 1:15 It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all. 16Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Nothing here about being first in the Body of Christ, actually Paul is clearly saying that he was foremost among sinners, and that Jesus extended him mercy so that we would see in Paul an example of Christ's grace to all sinners. But, certainly no claim to being "first" in the Body of Christ. That's just plain wrong.

1 Corinthians 15: 8 "and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also."

I guess when Paul says he's last, we need to understand that he is some kind of spiritual dyslexic and he must mean that he's first, and that when he is talking about seeing Christ, he also is spiritually confused and means that by seeing he was made first.

Or maybe, Dan P, you need to realize that the Bible isn't saying what you're trying to say that it says here.

 

[Bent Radar]

Yeah, John 20:22 been a point of musing for me too but I've increasingly found it hard to separate being given the Holy Spirit, the spiritual salvation and regeneration of the believer, and Baptism in the Spirit - and I believe that every believer has been Baptized in the Spirit even if they are not actively "being filled" as the command goes.

I agree we are all baptized into the body by the Spirit and that is sometimes referred to as simply receiving the Spirit, and we are regenerated when we are placed into the body. I think the Acts 2 Pentecost was the point at which this particular operation of the Spirit became available. I think it was a big part of John's and Jesus' ministry to prepare people for this new kingdom and covenant. Even when Jesus personally forgave sins I believe it was in a different context. Hebrews has some more to say about that, how the testator must first die.

If you are interested read this paper that I put on my website which I wrote about the Baptism of the Spirit...

I read it, and I thought it was right on the money. I liked what you had to say about being born of water in John 3:5. Thank you.

 

[Bent Radar]

...

#11 , Paul was saved by the Lord himself and not by the preaching of the 12 Apostles or by the preaching od the Gospel of the Kingdom !!!

#12 , Rom 1:1 proves that PREMISE !!!

#13 , And 1 Cor 15: 8 PROVES my Premis also !!!

Paul was unique in that he was the apostle to the gentiles, but I don't see anything substantive in the points you've listed to suggest that he was the first to receive the promise of the Spirit.

I believe that Cornelius was the first gentile to enter into the new kingdom because of (1) the vision that he and Peter had, and (2) that it was under Peter's preaching (he had the keys) and (3) that Cornelius' conversion had the accompanying signs that the Jews experienced in Acts 2.

 

[dan p]

[quote="dan p":1omvminf]
...

#11 , Paul was saved by the Lord himself and not by the preaching of the 12 Apostles or by the preaching od the Gospel of the Kingdom !!!

#12 , Rom 1:1 proves that PREMISE !!!

#13 , And 1 Cor 15: 8 PROVES my Premis also !!!

Paul was unique in that he was the apostle to the gentiles, but I don't see anything substantive in the points you've listed to suggest that he was the first to receive the promise of the Spirit.

I believe that Cornelius was the first gentile to enter into the new kingdom because of (1) the vision that he and Peter had, and (2) that it was under Peter's preaching (he had the keys) and (3) that Cornelius' conversion had the accompanying signs that the Jews experienced in Acts 2.[/quote:1omvminf]

Hi Bent Radar , I have given I believe a correct exegesis of Rom 1: 1 show that it IS the perefect Tense , passive voice , and indicative mood , and that is what you need to explain away , and you have not !!!!!

A ggod example of the perfect tense is when Jesus said on the cross " it is finished " and Gal 2:20 , " I am crucified " or it " it is written , that you can check on the internet .

 

[glorydaz]

[quote="Bent Radar":36fppv0n][quote="dan p":36fppv0n]
...

#11 , Paul was saved by the Lord himself and not by the preaching of the 12 Apostles or by the preaching od the Gospel of the Kingdom !!!

#12 , Rom 1:1 proves that PREMISE !!!

#13 , And 1 Cor 15: 8 PROVES my Premis also !!!

Paul was unique in that he was the apostle to the gentiles, but I don't see anything substantive in the points you've listed to suggest that he was the first to receive the promise of the Spirit.

I believe that Cornelius was the first gentile to enter into the new kingdom because of (1) the vision that he and Peter had, and (2) that it was under Peter's preaching (he had the keys) and (3) that Cornelius' conversion had the accompanying signs that the Jews experienced in Acts 2.[/quote:36fppv0n]

Hi Bent Radar , I have given I believe a correct exegesis of Rom 1: 1 show that it IS the perefect Tense , passive voice , and indicative mood , and that is what you need to explain away , and you have not !!!!!

A ggod example of the perfect tense is when Jesus said on the cross " it is finished " and Gal 2:20 , " I am crucified " or it " it is written , that you can check on the internet .[/quote:36fppv0n]

If you set out to understand the Word by using "perfect tense", "passive voice", and "indicative mood", you're leaning on our own human understanding and could very well be shutting off the enlightenment that comes through the Holy Spirit. The Bible is only hard to understand when we approach it with the human brain. We should always read the Word and allow the Holy Spirit to open our understanding without relying so heavily on semantics that we get an understanding contrary to the rest of Scripture.

This says nothing about Paul being the first in the body. In fact, Paul points out that he is the least as well as the last...ever conscious of how he'd persecuted the church....the untimely birth speaks of abortion...a runt...smaller that the other apostles....almost an afterthought in his mind.

And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

Romans 1 is nothing more than saying he was called to preach the Gospel among the heathen as here in Galatians...

But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

 

[chestertonrules]

Matt 16

17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

 

[dan p]

Matt 16

17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

Hi chesteronrules , The Body of Christ in NOT in the Gospels , and Paul is the ONLY one that mentions it !!!!