Who will God Marry? (A rhetorical question)

[Indentured Servant]

Christians are focused on being the bride of Christ; God promised to Israel that He would return to her and marry her. (Isaiah 62:5, & a variety of other prophetic passages)

Here's some of the actual statements and interpretations, gleaned from different conversations on the topic, (all allegedly supported by a variety of doctrines per their presenter):

[Disclaimer: These are not necessarily interpretations taken from christianforums.net, but reflect an accumulation of various online sites, live conversations, books, AND sermons.]

1. The church is the "new" Israel,
2. The church is the "real" Israel,
3. Israel lost the promise of God's return as her
husband, it was granted to the church,
4. Israel and the church are the same in OT & NT,
5. Israel is God's wife, and the church is Christ's
bride (2 brides, two husbands),
6. The OT is obsolete,
7. The current Body of Christ (male) will be
transformed into His bride (female),
8. God will punish Israel, but He will not "beat His
bride,"
9. God would never marry a whore (Israel),
10. Israel will serve, (or be judged by), the church.

There are more variations on this, but I thought it was interesting how adamant everyone is on the interpretation they've been taught. I've seen attempts at discussions, but neither side attempts to do more than just present their side. Truthfully, most of these are one-sided, i-know- the-truth rants and not actual discussions).

Granted, much of this can be the result of standing on one (or another) specific doctrinal position, and redefining scripture to fit a preferred narrative, but it sadly represents how the theologians, pulpits, and popular authors can soil the word of God and effect how WE end up debating, arguing with, and judging each other.

[Disclaimer #2: This topic does not mean I endorse, or am attempting to teach, any of these views. It is an observation inspired by a very nice discussion I had regarding hermetics recently.]

 

[RandyK]

Christians are focused on being the bride of Christ; God promised to Israel that He would return to her and marry her. (Isaiah 62:5, & a variety of other prophetic passages)

Here's some of the actual statements and interpretations, gleaned from different conversations on the topic, (all allegedly supported by a variety of doctrines per their presenter):

[Disclaimer: These are not necessarily interpretations taken from christianforums.net, but reflect an accumulation of various online sites, live conversations, books, AND sermons.]

1. The church is the "new" Israel,
2. The church is the "real" Israel,
3. Israel lost the promise of God's return as her
husband, it was granted to the church,
4. Israel and the church are the same in OT & NT,
5. Israel is God's wife, and the church is Christ's
bride (2 brides, two husbands),
6. The OT is obsolete,
7. The current Body of Christ (male) will be
transformed into His bride (female),
8. God will punish Israel, but He will not "beat His
bride,"
9. God would never marry a whore (Israel),
10. Israel will serve, (or be judged by), the church.

There are more variations on this, but I thought it was interesting how adamant everyone is on the interpretation they've been taught. I've seen attempts at discussions, but neither side attempts to do more than just present their side. Truthfully, most of these are one-sided, i-know- the-truth rants and not actual discussions).

Granted, much of this can be the result of standing on one (or another) specific doctrinal position, and redefining scripture to fit a preferred narrative, but it sadly represents how the theologians, pulpits, and popular authors can soil the word of God and effect how WE end up debating, arguing with, and judging each other.

[Disclaimer #2: This topic does not mean I endorse, or am attempting to teach, any of these views. It is an observation inspired by a very nice discussion I had regarding hermetics recently.]

Learning to debate properly as a practicing Christian is a fine art, a process. We need to be tolerant to allow maturation. We all need grace to operate as imperfect beings, assuming we remain "correctable."

The object is to remain kind and peaceable, and to continuously track with good Christian character despite the inevitable insults and jabs. We can debate and achieve a modicum of respect and growth by "iron sharpening iron," and by a spirit of humility.

The definition of "Israel" you've heard is obviously based on the debate between Covenant, or Reformed, Theology and Dispensationalism. I personally am neither in all of their respective aspects.

I certainly hold to certain aspects of Reformed Theology, that NT Grace is a "superseding" development out of the OT Law. But I do hold to the element in Dispensationalism that Israel as a nation has distinct national promises and a future fulfilling that premise.

However, Dispensationalism is allied with Pretribulationism, and views the Eschaton as an essential differentiation between the international Church and Israel. And I think this is a flawed way of distinguishing them.

"Israel" is a national designation, without regard to its spiritual constituencies, believing and unbelieving. However, we know that at present there is a "Christian" element to national Israel--a Christian "remnant," so to speak.

And I do believe that at Christ's Coming, divine judgment and Christ himself will somehow turn a generally unbelieving nation (the current majority) into a Christian society. The nation will adopt a Christian constitution, will practice social norms that are Christian and will contain a large block of genuine, spiritual Christians.

This reality takes place, however, in the New Millennial Age, and does not reflect some kind of Dispensational transition during the reign of Antichrist, preceded by the so-called "Rapture of the Church." And I don't believe the "Church has displaced Israel," even though Israel is undergoing a national judgment of sorts in the present NT age.

The Kingdom, it is true, has passed from the nation Israel to many nations currently constituting "Christian Civilization." This is what Jesus predicted would happen. But Israel remains national "Israel," including the many Jews who have scattered in the Diaspora and have maintained their Jewish identity.

The Church, far from being distinct from national Israel, includes a remnant of Christians from national Israel. Nor has Israel been excluded from the company of nations on earth--not even during the Jewish Diaspora, since a nation can exist in absentia. And so, Israel, as a national group, continues to exist, and contributes a small group of their own to the international Church.

Denying the national right of Israel to exist, or opposition to Zionism, is, I think, Antisemitic and stands in opposition to the word of God. Israel is not yet a Christian nation, but its national development is, I believe, preliminary to her ultimate redemption.

The Church, therefore, should not be called "Israel" or "Spiritual Israel." Biblical Israel (during the age of Law) certainly served as a model for the Church throughout the centuries that Israel was in Diaspora and in a state of unbelief. But today there is new hope for Israel's national redemption. And I think we would do well to let God do what He's doing?

 

[Indentured Servant]

Learning to debate properly as a practicing Christian is a fine art, a process. We need to be tolerant to allow maturation. We all need grace to operate as imperfect beings, assuming we remain "correctable."

The object is to remain kind and peaceable, and to continuously track with good Christian character despite the inevitable insults and jabs. We can debate and achieve a modicum of respect and growth by "iron sharpening iron," and by a spirit of humility.

The definition of "Israel" you've heard is obviously based on the debate between Covenant, or Reformed, Theology and Dispensationalism. I personally am neither in all of their respective aspects.

I certainly hold to certain aspects of Reformed Theology, that NT Grace is a "superseding" development out of the OT Law. But I do hold to the element in Dispensationalism that Israel as a nation has distinct national promises and a future fulfilling that premise.

However, Dispensationalism is allied with Pretribulationism, and views the Eschaton as an essential differentiation between the international Church and Israel. And I think this is a flawed way of distinguishing them.

"Israel" is a national designation, without regard to its spiritual constituencies, believing and unbelieving. However, we know that at present there is a "Christian" element to national Israel--a Christian "remnant," so to speak.

And I do believe that at Christ's Coming, divine judgment and Christ himself will somehow turn a generally unbelieving nation (the current majority) into a Christian society. The nation will adopt a Christian constitution, will practice social norms that are Christian and will contain a large block of genuine, spiritual Christians.

This reality takes place, however, in the New Millennial Age, and does not reflect some kind of Dispensational transition during the reign of Antichrist, preceded by the so-called "Rapture of the Church." And I don't believe the "Church has displaced Israel," even though Israel is undergoing a national judgment of sorts in the present NT age.

The Kingdom, it is true, has passed from the nation Israel to many nations currently constituting "Christian Civilization." This is what Jesus predicted would happen. But Israel remains national "Israel," including the many Jews who have scattered in the Diaspora and have maintained their Jewish identity.

The Church, far from being distinct from national Israel, includes a remnant of Christians from national Israel. Nor has Israel been excluded from the company of nations on earth--not even during the Jewish Diaspora, since a nation can exist in absentia. And so, Israel, as a national group, continues to exist, and contributes a small group of their own to the international Church.

Denying the national right of Israel to exist, or opposition to Zionism, is, I think, Antisemitic and stands in opposition to the word of God. Israel is not yet a Christian nation, but its national development is, I believe, preliminary to her ultimate redemption.

The Church, therefore, should not be called "Israel" or "Spiritual Israel." Biblical Israel (during the age of Law) certainly served as a model for the Church throughout the centuries that Israel was in Diaspora and in a state of unbelief. But today there is new hope for Israel's national redemption. And I think we would do well to let God do what He's doing?

Great response. You addressed the general concern of being able to communicate, dealt with different orientations of belief, and, as well contributed your thoughts on your understanding of scripture and theology. That's quite refreshing... I really appreciate your contribution.

I personally don't attach any theological identity, or doctrinal position, to myself. I used to, but with the overwhelming variety of major and minor interpretations, lumped in with poor understanding of both scripture and spoken interpretations, I've found it more rewarding to just let others say what they want to say, as long as it is respectful communication.

It is difficult to understand how two people who are tasked with not judging one another, and expected to share Christ's love can be polar opposites on a scriptural topic, but it's really hard to see them use the different understandings as weapons against each other. It becomes "iron chipping iron." That is, unfortunately, what happens too often.

I agree that any two people can help "iron sharpen iron," but I think if we focus on communication in that, rather than the things that we disagree on, we'd have sharper irons, and not so many chipped irons.

On a scriptural note, I do agree that we should not confuse Israel with the church, but be willing to accept that God loves both of them and has a different purpose, or outcome, for each... Neither better than, or worse than, the other... just different. Each has been "set apart" for Him to do as He pleases.

 

[follower]

Bible Hub
biblehub.com› matthew › 22-30.htm
Matthew 22:30 In the resurrection, people will neither marry nor ...

In the resurrection, people will neither marry nor be given in marriage. Instead, they will be like the angels in heaven.

 

[for_his_glory]

6. The OT is obsolete,

When did the OT become obsolete? Without the OT we would not have the NT.

 

[Indentured Servant]

When did the OT become obsolete? Without the OT we would not have the NT.

I've heard people use that... It's usually during a conversation about Jesus fulfilling the Law.... sometimes when someone wants to bolster their claim that Christians replaced Israel.
I certainly believe the Old Testament is valid for understanding God and for understanding the New Testament.

 

[JLB]

Israel and the church are the same in OT & NT,

God dealing with a covenant nation began with Abraham.

• The Abrahamic Covenant was made between Abraham and The Lord Jesus Christ before He became flesh.

When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. Genesis 17:1

No one before the cross and resurrection of Jesus Christ saw God the Father.
John 1:18

Everyone in the Old Testament who saw God was seeing God the Son, not God the Father.

• The Abrahamic Covenant became the New (refreshed) Covenant which is a better Covenant based on better promises.

This is why we as Gentiles are called children of Abraham.


Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”
Galatians 3:7-8

For the record Abraham was a Gentile. A Syrian.

• The law of Moses was added to the Abrahamic Covenant until the Seed (Messiah) should come.

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Galatians 3:19


Israel is referred to as the Church in the New Testament.


This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us: Acts 7:38


Both Israel and the Church are called by God as a holy nation of priests.


And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel.” Exodus 19:6


But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 1 Peter 2:9

 

[Indentured Servant]

God dealing with a covenant nation began with Abraham.

• The Abrahamic Covenant was made between Abraham and The Lord Jesus Christ before He became flesh.

When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. Genesis 17:1

No one before the cross and resurrection of Jesus Christ saw God the Father.
John 1:18

Everyone in the Old Testament who saw God was seeing God the Son, not God the Father.

• The Abrahamic Covenant became the New (refreshed) Covenant which is a better Covenant based on better promises.

This is why we as Gentiles are called children of Abraham.


Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”
Galatians 3:7-8

For the record Abraham was a Gentile. A Syrian.

• The law of Moses was added to the Abrahamic Covenant until the Seed (Messiah) should come.

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Galatians 3:19


Israel is referred to as the Church in the New Testament.


This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us: Acts 7:38


Both Israel and the Church are called by God as a holy nation of priests.


And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel.” Exodus 19:6


But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 1 Peter 2:9

Thank you for expounding on that interpretation.

 

[for_his_glory]

I've heard people use that... It's usually during a conversation about Jesus fulfilling the Law.... sometimes when someone wants to bolster their claim that Christians replaced Israel.
I certainly believe the Old Testament is valid for understanding God and for understanding the New Testament.

Which Old Testament Book Did Jesus Quote From
blog.biblia.com

Jesus quoted from:
Exodus 3:6.............Matthew 22:32; Mark 12:26; Luke 20:37
20:12-16.................Matthew 15:14; 19:18, 19; Mark 7:10; 10:19; Luke 18:20
21:24......................Matthew 5:38


Isaiah 6:9-10.........Matthew 13:14, 15; Mark 4:12; Luke 8:10
56:7.......................Matthew 21:13; Mark 11:17; Luke 19:46
29:13.....................Matthew 15:8, 9; Mark 7:6, 7
5:1.........................Matthew 21:33; Mark 12:1; Luke 20:9
53:12.....................Luke 22:37
54:13.....................John 6:45
61:1, 2...................Matthew 11:5; Luke 4:18, 19; 7:22

Deuteronomy
6:5........................Matthew 22:37; Mark 12:29-33; Luke 10:27
24:1-3...................Matthew 5:31; 19:7; Mark 10:4
19:15....................Matthew 4:4, 7, 10; Luke 4:4, 8, 12

Psalms
82:2; 110:1...........Matthew 21:21:16; 22:44; Mark 12:36; 14:62; Luke 20:42, 43
22:1......................Matthew 27:46; Mark 15:34
31:5......................Luke 23:46
35:19; 69:4..........John 15:25
41:9.....................John 13:18
78:24...................John 6:31
82:6.....................John 10:34
110:1...................Matthew 26:64
118:22, 23...........Matthew 21:42; Mark 12:10; Luke 20:17
118:26.................Matthew 23:39; Luke 13:35


If you go to that website it will give you more greater detail

 

[for_his_glory]

Indentured Servant Here is Jesus from Genesis through Revelation.

He Is by Aaron Jeoffrey

In Genesis, He's the breath of life
In Exodus, the Passover Lamb
In Leviticus, He's our High Priest
Numbers, The fire by night
Deuteronomy, He's Moses' voice
In Joshua, He is salvation's choice
Judges, law giver
In Ruth, the kinsmen-redeemer
First and second Samuel, our trusted prophet
In Kings and Chronicles, He's sovereign

Ezra, true and faithful scribe
Nehemiah, He's the rebuilder of broken walls and lives
In Esther, He's Mordecai's courage
In Job, the timeless redeemer
In Psalms, He is our morning song

In Proverbs, wisdom's cry
Ecclesiastes, the time and season
In the Song of Solomon, He is the lover's dream

He is, He is, HE IS!

In Isaiah, He's Prince of Peace
Jeremiah, the weeping prophet
In Lamentations, the cry for Israel
Ezekiel, He's the call from sin
In Daniel, the stranger in the fire

In Hosea, He is forever faithful
In Joel, He's the Spirits power
In Amos, the arms that carry us
In Obadiah, He's the Lord our Savior
In Jonah, He's the great missionary

In Micah, the promise of peace
In Nahum, He is our strength and our shield
In Habakkuk and Zephaniah, He's pleading for revival
In Haggai, He restores a lost heritage
In Zechariah, our fountain

In Malachi, He is the son of righteousness rising with healing in His wings

He is, He is, HE IS!

In Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, He is God, Man, Messiah
In the book of Acts, He is fire from heaven
In Romans, He's the grace of God
In Corinthians, the power of love
In Galatians, He is freedom from the curse of sin

Ephesians, our glorious treasure
Philippians, the servants heart
In Colossians, He's the Godhead Trinity
Thessalonians, our coming King
In Timothy, Titus, Philemon He's our mediator and our faithful Pastor

In Hebrews, the everlasting covenant
In James, the one who heals the sick.
In First and Second Peter, he is our Shepherd
In John and in Jude, He is the lover coming for His bride
In the Revelation, He is King of Kings and Lord of Lords

He is, He is, HE IS!

The prince of peace
The Son of man
The Lamb of God
The great I AM

He's the alpha and omega
Our God and our Savior
He is Jesus Christ the Lord
and when time is no more
He is, HE IS!