Whole Word or Hole Word

[Sparkey]

Recently there have been several debates about various doctrines where those who oppose common doctrine take a position that we should only consider a small portion of the Bible and ignore anything that doesn't fit.

One member suggests that only the teachings of Jesus, as found in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are infallible. Another has argued that only what is found in Genesis chapter 3 qualifies when we study how sin entered the world. An atheist flatly states that that the new testament was not written by Jesus and therefore it can not be true.

Of the various arguments the one of the atheist is the most understandable. He has not had the benefit of sitting at our Father's table and is an outsider, looking in. It is the statements of the children of God that concern me. Some have said, "I try to stay away from using terms like "personal relationship" because they are not found in the bible." My response to such things is, "What?? We can only speak Greek and Hebrew and Aramaic now?"

Paul sounded frustrated when he said that his followers should be eating meat and not require the basic foundational doctrines to be laid again. Those who require milk are babes. He spoke of meat and milk to the carnal church in Corinth but he also wrote to the Hebrews with the same admonishment.

And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, [even] as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able [to bear it], neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

... For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, [ye are] God's building. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. [1 Corinthians 3:1-3, 9-11 KJV]

Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk [is] unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, [even] those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

~Sparrow

 

[Elijah674]

Recently there have been several debates about various doctrines where those who oppose common doctrine take a position that we should only consider a small portion of the Bible and ignore anything that doesn't fit.

One member suggests that only the teachings of Jesus, as found in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are infallible. Another has argued that only what is found in Genesis chapter 3 qualifies when we study how sin entered the world. An atheist flatly states that that the new testament was not written by Jesus and therefore it can not be true.

Of the various arguments the one of the atheist is the most understandable. He has not had the benefit of sitting at our Father's table and is an outsider, looking in. It is the statements of the children of God that concern me. Some have said, "I try to stay away from using terms like "personal relationship" because they are not found in the bible." My response to such things is, "What?? We can only speak Greek and Hebrew and Aramaic now?"

Paul sounded frustrated when he said that his followers should be eating meat and not require the basic foundational doctrines to be laid again. Those who require milk are babes. He spoke of meat and milk to the carnal church in Corinth but he also wrote to the Hebrews with the same admonishment.

~Sparrow

Are you going to get us hung??;) John the baptist was beheaded, the other of the twelve (outside of Judus) were killed, John escaped for a purpose, huh?

Anyway, these ones were ALL sent back to who?? (Matt. 10:5-6) OK: who was the 'hole' & which were the Matt. 4:4 ones?

And 'us'?? we are surely seen in the Eccl, 3:15 prophesied Truth, right? But 'i' for one did enjoy the [post!]

--Elijah

 

[Sparkey]

Are you going to get us hung??;)
--Elijah

If only. I'm thinking about starting a thread on Prophecy too. No, not a study about the prophetic statements made by others but the Gift of Prophecy as seen in the Body of Christ. :D

 

[Gendou Ikari]

There are some very legitimate contentions within Christianity. Let's start from the position that scripture is inspired by God, as I am sure every Christian believes. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that what the writers of the modern Bible (i.e. the compilation chosen from a variety of texts in the 3th century) wrote inerrantly. I know a bunch of Christians who don't believe that every word of the modern Bible is inerrant.

 

[Alabaster]

There are some very legitimate contentions within Christianity. Let's start from the position that scripture is inspired by God, as I am sure every Christian believes. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that what the writers of the modern Bible (i.e. the compilation chosen from a variety of texts in the 3th century) wrote inerrantly. I know a bunch of Christians who don't believe that every word of the modern Bible is inerrant.

If people are going to be saying those kinds of incendiary things and think they are in authority to say them, then they must be prepared to consistently back themselves up.

So far, I've heard bupkis.

 

[Sparkey]

There are some very legitimate contentions within Christianity. Let's start from the position that scripture is inspired by God, as I am sure every Christian believes. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that what the writers of the modern Bible (i.e. the compilation chosen from a variety of texts in the 3th century) wrote inerrantly. I know a bunch of Christians who don't believe that every word of the modern Bible is inerrant.

Okay. What does the word "inspired" mean? Preference should be to the meaning given by the writer, don'cha think? Can you help define the word or give examples from Scripture to clarify?

 

[Gendou Ikari]

If people are going to be saying those kinds of incendiary things and think they are in authority to say them, then they must be prepared to consistently back themselves up.

So far, I've heard bupkis.

It does no good to simply call their arguments bupkis. I find the machinations Christians go though to "prove" that the modern Bible is inerrant to be intellectually dishonest; however, it means little to nothing to just say that without backing it up.

Okay. What does the word "inspired" mean? Preference should be to the meaning given by the writer, don'cha think? Can you help define the word or give examples from Scripture to clarify?

You are falling into the circular reasoning trap. To solve this debate we needn't look for validation in the modern Bible, since the inerrancy of it, is what we are questioning. Inspiration is merely means that one is influenced by something. For example, a lot of my creative writing is inspired by feminism and issues surrounding sexual violence. Likewise, you could say that the writers of the Gospels were inspired by contact with Jesus and the Holy Ghost, without actually having God puppet their bodies and write directly through them. This clears up a lot of inconsistencies in the Bible and modern Christian ethics. For instance, modern Christians decry abortion, but hit a brick wall when the prophets order the death of pregnant mothers, babies and children. A belief in the fallibility of the biblical authors allows you the ability to chalk those evils up to human error, and not divine evil.

 

[Alabaster]

You are falling into the circular reasoning trap. To solve this debate we needn't look for validation in the modern Bible, since the inerrancy of it, is what we are questioning. Inspiration is merely means that one is influenced by something. For example, a lot of my creative writing is inspired by feminism and issues surrounding sexual violence. Likewise, you could say that the writers of the Gospels were inspired by contact with Jesus and the Holy Ghost, without actually having God puppet their bodies and write directly through them. This clears up a lot of inconsistencies in the Bible and modern Christian ethics. For instance, modern Christians decry abortion, but hit a brick wall when the prophets order the death of pregnant mothers, babies and children. A belief in the fallibility of the biblical authors allows you the ability to chalk those evils up to human error, and not divine evil.

The writers were inspired by the Holy Spirit's empowering. That is something Christians understand, because many of us experience His anointing in certain areas and He literally empowers us to do or say things that we normally wouldn't or couldn't in the natural.

We hit no brick walls. We know God and know all His judgments are just.

 

[Elijah674]

There are some very legitimate contentions within Christianity. Let's start from the position that scripture is inspired by God, as I am sure every Christian believes. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that what the writers of the modern Bible (i.e. the compilation chosen from a variety of texts in the 3th century) wrote inerrantly. I know a bunch of Christians who don't believe that every word of the modern Bible is inerrant.

Perhaps Sparrow was talking about that with his prophecy remark? Isa, 8:20 takes that in as 'i' see it. First there is only one portion of the Bible written by God alone seen there. The 10 Commandments. And then comes the TESTIMONY or Prophecy of this Testimony, like a court trial. (using ALL 66 Books, NO NO MORE! ) Except these ones need NO Oath taking as they are Inspired to tell it straight as they see it. Yet, it is done in their OWN discription of wordings. Take note that this is to be also 'uninspired' mankinds (us'ins!) testing for what is Truth and understanding all doctrine by these two testings!

And the TESTIMONY or PROPHECY? It takes Matt. 4:4 EVERY WORD + 2 Tim. 3:16's ALL of the 'Testimony' Tested by THE LAW to find the DOCTRINAL VERDICT. Such as told in Isa. 28:9-10, like putting a puzzel together. (note the 'Tables'... churchs of Rev. 17:5 in verse 8 where one was to get fed? Another good verse on where one was to get fed is seen in Davids 'testimony' of Psalms 69:20-28 & verse 22!)

Perhaps Sparrow will tell us of another reason why Matt. Mark Luke + John are not carbon copy books in the exact wording if this is not the Testimony of Prophecy?
And surely some words used in THE BOOK are not the Godheads language. Such as Isa. 36:12 or Heb. 12:8.

--Elijah

 

[farouk]

There are other sites where ppl spend there time criticizing the Bible continually.

Why come here to do it?

 

[Sparkey]

I know a bunch of Christians who don't believe that every word of the modern Bible is inerrant.

It does no good to simply call their arguments bupkis. I find the machinations Christians go though to "prove" that the modern Bible is inerrant to be intellectually dishonest; however, it means little to nothing to just say that without backing it up.

You are falling into the circular reasoning trap.

"intellectually dishonest" ?

"circular reasoning"?

Stating, "I know Christians who don't believe..." is your proof?? By your standard, "it means little to nothing to just say that." Funny how ill-considered words can come back to haunt you, isn't it? The Word of God is without error. Citing the disbelief of "Errants" does nothing to establish your point. I take it by your answer you can't define "inspired" then. Let's move on here and look at what we are told about the process of inspiration. Inspiration of Scripture is never by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

Jesus told us how it would happen beforehand: "But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."

Two chapters later (John 16) he continues the discussion:

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. ​

[John 16:7-13 KJV]

This is the action of God. We don't get to choose what was or was not inspired, only God when He acted to give us the Word. We (by the power of the Holy Spirit) merely recognize the inerrant inspiration. "My sheep know my voice."

God chose to include men. It has always been this way with our Lord. There is no fear that we are not loved here because as we continue to look into His Perfect Word, we continue to change and become more and more like Him. Truly the Word of God is His seed and any who hear can choose to act. Elijah674 touched on part of the mystery when he mentioned the spoken Word. We overcome by the blood of the Lamb, ... AND dia (through) the autos (self) logos (word) --translated, "by the word of their testimony." His living Word is in His children. We learn to love His word more than we love ourselves. Is this not the first commandment? It is.

~Sparrow

PS. "Feminism" isn't alive.

 

[Gendou Ikari]

The writers were inspired by the Holy Spirit's empowering. That is something Christians understand, because many of us experience His anointing in certain areas and He literally empowers us to do or say things that we normally wouldn't or couldn't in the natural.

We hit no brick walls. We know God and know all His judgments are just.

Maybe the disciples were just as qualified as you are to write holy scripture. That is, infused with the Holy Spirit, but not infallible like Christian Catholics believe the Papal Decree is.

Perhaps Sparrow was talking about that with his prophecy remark? Isa, 8:20 takes that in as 'i' see it. First there is only one portion of the Bible written by God alone seen there. The 10 Commandments. And then comes the TESTIMONY or Prophecy of this Testimony, like a court trial. (using ALL 66 Books, NO NO MORE! ) Except these ones need NO Oath taking as they are Inspired to tell it straight as they see it. Yet, it is done in their OWN discription of wordings. Take note that this is to be also 'uninspired' mankinds (us'ins!) testing for what is Truth and understanding all doctrine by these two testings!

And the TESTIMONY or PROPHECY? It takes Matt. 4:4 EVERY WORD + 2 Tim. 3:16's ALL of the 'Testimony' Tested by THE LAW to find the DOCTRINAL VERDICT. Such as told in Isa. 28:9-10, like putting a puzzel together. (note the 'Tables'... churchs of Rev. 17:5 in verse 8 where one was to get fed? Another good verse on where one was to get fed is seen in Davids 'testimony' of Psalms 69:20-28 & verse 22!)

Perhaps Sparrow will tell us of another reason why Matt. Mark Luke + John are not carbon copy books in the exact wording if this is not the Testimony of Prophecy?
And surely some words used in THE BOOK are not the Godheads language. Such as Isa. 36:12 or Heb. 12:8.

--Elijah

I guess what I am getting at (not sure if I was clear enough) is why modern Christians practically worship those 66 books chosen? Many great historical Christians doubted the validity of them, like Martin Luther with the Book of Revelation.

 

[Gendou Ikari]

There are other sites where ppl spend there time criticizing the Bible continually.

Why come here to do it?

That came across as unnecessarily mean.

Anyway, to answer your question: I came back here, first, because I was invited to return; and secondly, because it is so much more interesting to talk with Christians about Christianity than to discuss Christianity with a bunch of secularists, who are prone to be degrading. It is boring to always talk with people who agree with you philosophically. It does nothing to increase my critical thinking skills.

I am also curious why you elevate the Bible to the status of God? I am not arguing that Christianity is wrong in this thread. All I am saying is that biblical inerrancy is not a pre-requisite to being Christian. As I mentioned above, Martin Luther doubted the validity of 66-book Bible, and if my historical knowledge is sharp, St. Augustine didn't care much for the Old Testament.

 

[Sparkey]

Maybe the disciples were just as qualified as you are to write holy scripture.

Many great historical Christians doubted the validity of them,

Repeating your statement (that some don't believe) does nothing to support your premise, that the bible isn't inspired and inerrant. The Scriptures themselves claim inspiration. All Scripture is profitable for instruction. Jesus taught this himself. The writers of the bible agreed with Him.

[Matthew 26:54 NKJV] - "How then could the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen thus?"

It's is God's Word, not the word of men, that is to be taken seriously.

 

[Gendou Ikari]

"intellectually dishonest" ?

"circular reasoning"?

Stating, "I know Christians who don't believe..." is your proof?? By your standard, "it means little to nothing to just say that." Funny how ill-considered words can come back to haunt you, isn't it? The Word of God is without error. Citing the disbelief of "Errants" does nothing to establish your point. I take it by your answer you can't define "inspired" then. Let's move on here and look at what we are told about the process of inspiration. Inspiration of Scripture is never by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

Jesus told us how it would happen beforehand: "But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."

Two chapters later (John 16) he continues the discussion:

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. ​

[John 16:7-13 KJV]

This is the action of God. We don't get to choose what was or was not inspired, only God when He acted to give us the Word. We (by the power of the Holy Spirit) merely recognize the inerrant inspiration. "My sheep know my voice."

God chose to include men. It has always been this way with our Lord. There is no fear that we are not loved here because as we continue to look into His Perfect Word, we continue to change and become more and more like Him. Truly the Word of God is His seed and any who hear can choose to act. Elijah674 touched on part of the mystery when he mentioned the spoken Word. We overcome by the blood of the Lamb, ... AND dia (through) the autos (self) logos (word) --translated, "by the word of their testimony." His living Word is in His children. We learn to love His word more than we love ourselves. Is this not the first commandment? It is.

~Sparrow

You are just being arbitrary. The Bible passages you gave me merely talk about the mystical experience of the Holy Ghost in the soul of a believer. Let's work off of this point. So, the Holy Ghost creates a union between God and Man. Certain Christians who have the Spirit make the claim that the 66 books of the Bible are inerrant. But another sizeable group who have the Spirit in them claim that the 66 books of the Bible are not inerrant. You simply call these Christians who disagree with you errants/heretics. You're basically saying "they are wrong because I said so."

PS. "Feminism" isn't alive.

Haha... I needed an analogy. :p

 

[Sparkey]

You're basically saying "they are wrong because I said so."

Haha... I needed an analogy. :p

Your attempt to put words in my mouth fails - you've stated that I am wrong because others have said they don't believe. I've only stated that God did not lie. I've stated that all Scripture is given by God, "God-Breathed" if you will. In point of fact, this is no my word either, but His.

"He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me."
[John 14:24 NKJV]

Paul also demonstrated the power of the Holy Spirit:

And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God. However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory... [1 Corinthians 2:4-7 NKJV]​

Quoting The Holy Spirit as uttered through yet another oracle of God, James: "Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls."

This "implanted word" speaks again of the Logos of God being able to be received by men like me (and you) for the purpose of salvation.

Regards,
~Sparrow

 

[Alabaster]

Maybe the disciples were just as qualified as you are to write holy scripture. That is, infused with the Holy Spirit, but not infallible like Christian Catholics believe the Papal Decree is.

I am just as qualified to hear from God as the disciples were. I am as fallible as they were. However, the Lord is not anointing people these days to write scripture--that job is done. However, He does use me and others to speak the truth.

I guess what I am getting at (not sure if I was clear enough) is why modern Christians practically worship those 66 books chosen? Many great historical Christians doubted the validity of them, like Martin Luther with the Book of Revelation.

Of all the hundreds of believers I know, NOT ONE of us worships the bible. We know God and give Him the worship due Him. We learn of Him and we hear from Him when we read and study His word, however. It is our spiritual food.

I think the notion that we worship the bible is the result of your misreading people.

 

[Elijah674]

That came across as unnecessarily mean.

Anyway, to answer your question: I came back here, first, because I was invited to return; and secondly, because it is so much more interesting to talk with Christians about Christianity than to discuss Christianity with a bunch of secularists, who are prone to be degrading. It is boring to always talk with people who agree with you philosophically. It does nothing to increase my critical thinking skills.

You came back why?? You best read Rom. 8:14 & Gen. 6:3 for why one is still LONGING For Christ!

I am also curious why you elevate the Bible to the status of God? I am not arguing that Christianity is wrong in this thread. All I am saying is that biblical inerrancy is not a pre-requisite to being Christian. As I mentioned above, Martin Luther doubted the validity of 66-book Bible, and if my historical knowledge is sharp, St. Augustine didn't care much for the Old Testament.

Hi again. 'i' do not worship the K.J. 66 Books! If anyone had lived the life that I had & then seen the difference that came about after Christ was totally surendered to, they might begin to understand your questioning. I made a comitment long ago! My mom & dad were about as unequally yoked together as one could be! One with rich parents & mom from a house of 13 poor kids. And somewhere I was caught in between that.

To make perhaps a boring story short, I was the younger of four kids & if you think that James & John were 'sons of thunder' then you should have know both backwards & immediately forwards of my life. (skipping the smoking, swearing, drinking, being locked up, (+) that were gone.. on the spot) And who can believe this except if it happens to you?? Sure, I had read of such, but, that still left your questions [by me] un/answered! All that I knew, was that anything was better than what was being gone through by me! And I had nothing to lose! And as stated, that was years ago.

But this is what took place immediately upon 100% Total.. I GIVE UP LORD! Surrender.

Heb. 6:1-5 in the POSITIVES was an immediate Recreation!... (and no one can tell me that all of these past desires could be given up on the spot at that time)

'.. for those who were ONCE ENLIGHTENED, and [HAVE TASTED OF THE HEAVENLY GIFT], and [WERE MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST], an [have TASTED THE GOOD WORD OF GOD], and the [POWERS OF THE WORLD TO COME]..'
(and the red hightlight? You will never convince me that the 66 Book are anything other that the Inspired Word of God NOW... after this re/birth.)

And ALL OF These ones at this starting time could never again be where your [post] is still at;). Yet, they all at one time were where your post is at. That is why the Bible call's it [BY FAITH] before this physicial + Spiritual Documentation! And I sure would like to be around when this takes effect with you!

Hey, read Acts 9:1-18 for this 'killers' change! Just THINK of what his life was changed from!

--Elijah

 

[Gendou Ikari]

I am going to leave you guys with the last words, since I don't know where we can progress from here.

 

[Elijah674]

I am going to leave you guys with the last words, since I don't know where we can progress from here.

You know where you are at, at present. (not any of us) But I will say this, if anyone can be saved, the Lord will leave NO stone unturned to do so. He never forces, it must be our decision. But it matters little what that takes to get the job done, as long as the person has had every opportunity! See Jude 1:22 & 23 + Isaiah 5:4

Even the Jude verse might be misunderstood at present? The FEAR Word? But your original question asked how one could know Truth for sure? (bottomline) And here we see that God does not care why one surrenders, as long as they do. And it is then that the FEAR is a past/tense elment! LOVE IS 'THEN' RECREATED! And some are saved one way & others are saved in other methods!

I could post up a couple old posts about how God worked with me, but I won't unless asked to do so. Besides, they most likely would not fit the 'mods' policy of the thread.

--Elijah