Why Adam and Eve sinned before eating the fruit.

[Sparkey]

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this. I find it illogical to have a tree that gives the knowledge of good and evil, . . . yet them having the knowledge of what it is to be good and evil [in order to knowingly be disobedient]. Sorry all.

A question that ties in with the Adam and Eve topic, . . . . did god want them to "eat of this tree"?

Greetings, Deavonreye!

You've heard before (I am sure) that Spiritual things are understood by the action of the Holy Spirit. The fact that you consider this is encouraging and means (to me) that the Lord is drawing you. When Christians speak about theology in depth (as I am prone to do) we sometimes forget that it is a public forum and that all are welcome and able to listen and take part.

You've stated, "It is illogical to have a tree that gives the knowledge of good and evil," and with that I would agree. Note though, if you would, that God did not say that the tree was evil. Looking on the tree was not sin. Heck, even picking the fruit and having a KnowledgeoGood&Evil snowball fight wasn't a problem. It wasn't even the fruit that was evil or good. Adam disobeyed God and that disobedience came from eating the fruit. Is it so illogical to think that God spoke to him (and us) about things that were yet to be fully understood? Only one man, Jesus -- who is called the 2nd Adam, rightly understood Him.

God wanted man to be happy and immediately after he spoke to Adam about being able to eat from EVERY TREE (save one) he went about bring the animals to the Reddish Man of the Earth to point to the one thing He saw as "Not Good," ---> It was not good that man should be alone. God did not look upon what had been made to declare it "not good" but upon something that was yet to be made, "So Adam gave names to all cattle, to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper comparable to him. [Genesis 2:20 NKJV]

Why does the Bible speak in mysteries?
Jesus explained it to his disciples, thousands of years ago, and it remains true today:

And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

[Matthew 13:15-17 KJV] - For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous [men] have desired to see [those things] which ye see, and have not seen [them]; and to hear [those things] which ye hear, and have not heard [them].

But I am not persuaded this of you, Deavonreye because what I see is that you continue to come to people and continue to frankly discuss things that may be at first difficult to understand. It is entirely possible that you will hear, and what is conceived in you will bring forth abundantly. That is the hope we all share.

~Sparrow

[John 20:29 KJV] - Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed.

 

[Vic C.]

I've heard this several times from within the law community:

Ignorance of the law is no excuse. :yes

Whether or not one wants to apply that to the story in Genesis is up to the reader and how they understand and interpret scripture.

I do know of a simple truth:

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Deavonreye, you mentioned Matthew 5:28:

But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

This verse says a lot, but a closer look at the Sermon on the Mount ( from which this verse comes) really puts it into perspective and tells us how much in need of a Savior we are.

The bulk of the Sermon is not just to show us how to live a righteous life in the eyes of our God; it shows us that sin is SO ingrained into our very being, it is impossible to live up to that righteous standard on our own.

Sin is so much a part of who we our, we don't always realize when we are sinning sometimes until it is pointed out to us. We blur the lines between our thoughts and our actions that we begin to rationalize the thoughts.

You asked if God actually wanted them to sin. Well, I don't know but I believe nothing is done outside the knowledge and will of God and all is done for His glory. :yes

 

[stovebolts]

Sparrow, I hear [and know] what you're saying. I just look at "the tree" different than common christian doctrine/dogma. If the tree gives the knowledge OF good and evil, then logically, before one "eats its fruit", the knowledge of what IS "good or evil" is unknown to them. They wouldn't be able to even comprehend what "disobey" means.

I know you directed this to Sparrow, but I just can't help but respond. I know Sparrow will also respond, but I just have to address this.

Forget about the christian dogma and doctrine surrounding the event and just read it for what's there.

And the LORD God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

I don't see where the tree gives knowledge, only experience and then additional knowledge through the experience. If I tell you, don't touch that stove or you'll get burnt you have the knowledge of being burnt, but you don't have the experience of being burnt.

Knowledge was given to Adam when he was told, and Adam understood what was meant by "do not touch".

But it looks like your putting your focus on the "fruit" as if it took the doing for them to understand what sin was. To think such a way is to miss the point because the sin was disobedience by way of wanting to "be like God" and thus, disregarding what was clearly understood.

Do not eat.. and they ate. That was the outward visible sin which started within and simply became manifest through their own desires and disobedience.

Scripture is clear that they understood "Do not eat" by Eve's reply to the serpent when she added to God's word, "and you must not touch it, or you will die"

From scripture, we do not see God telling them that they could not touch it, only that they could not eat it. And isn't that in our nature to put hedges around God's commands just to make sure we remain "safe".

As per the second question about "whether god wanted them to eat this fruit", . . . why even make it something that was desireable? Why not make it a "stinking bog of the knowledge of good and evil"? There is a great YouTube video that hits on this point about "Adam and Eve Take 1". God's plan was for them to fall, so there must have been a temptation placed in the garden for them to be tempted with, as well as allowing "the serpent" in it.

Again, it wasn't that this fruit had a particular drawing attraction like perhaps a set of diamond earnings or such.

The text simply reads,
When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it.

So we see just like every other tree in the garden, it was good for food. And how do we know this? Because of what's in chapter 2.
The LORD God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food.

Her lust was for gaining wisdom... to be like God.

When you were a child, do you remember a time when you wanted to be just like your Dad? And your Dad told you not to do something that he himself was doing probably because it was unsafe for you to do? And you wanted to be so much like him you disobeyed and tried to do it too? It's really almost the same thing here.

 

[Deavonreye]

I think there is a disconnect here that won't be overcome. I do not see the passages as you all are saying they mean. A child may be able to repeat something a parent says to them, but they still do not KNOW what it means. Once again, and the last time I say it, the "knowledge of good and evil" can only be what it is. I see no reason to read it as "a partial knowledge".

I think this thread has come to an impass. Too many inconsistencies. For example, why Eve would feel the need to "be more than she was". Believing some created being more than god. Why? What deficiency was there in her mind? Why was she not happy with the perfect garden? Why allow the epitome of sin in the garden? Why a tree that WOULD [not could, but would] bring death?

Anyway, I have said all that I care to say . . . You all are more than welcome to continue discussing the story. Later.

 

[Sparkey]

When you were a child, do you remember a time when you wanted to be just like your Dad? And your Dad told you not to do something that he himself was doing probably because it was unsafe for you to do? And you wanted to be so much like him you disobeyed and tried to do it too? It's really almost the same thing here.

My sweet red-headed son, at the tender age of three, was playing in my car while it was parked in the driveway. He knew better. Did that save him from the crash that happened after he released the parking brake and slipped it out of gear? Was I able to save him when I woke from my nap to what sounded to me an earthquake? The car had collided with the wall by which I was sleeping.

I burst through the front door amidst the sound of his mother screaming in hysterics. Barefoot but fleet of foot I leaped over the shrubs and center garden to try to open the car door and save the child. The door was locked. If it were not for the TREE that stopped him, the car would have continued, through the neighbor's carport and through another city block of downslope into traffic. I watched helpless as my son bounced off the seat and fell beneath the dashboard. The window was shattered in the collision and the door was opened to reveal my son unharmed.

Now there's one tree that I am glad of. The car was totaled.

When you were a child, do you remember a time when you wanted to be just like your Dad? And your Dad told you not to do something that he himself was doing probably because it was unsafe for you to do? And you wanted to be so much like him you disobeyed and tried to do it too? It's really almost the same thing here.

Good analogy. I've just got 3 more gray hairs. :shocked!

 

[handy]

Just wanted to weigh in with the fact that this has been one of the best discussions I've had in Apologetics and Theology in a long time. :D God probably didn't make the tree the "stinking bog of the knowledge of good and evil" because He knew there would be a stinking bog of Apologetics and Theology and didn't want to confuse things. Seriously, I don't often weigh in on things here in A/T simply because it gets so nasty so quickly. This has been a great discussion, Deavonreye!

Sparrow, I hear [and know] what you're saying. I just look at "the tree" different than common christian doctrine/dogma. If the tree gives the knowledge OF good and evil, then logically, before one "eats its fruit", the knowledge of what IS "good or evil" is unknown to them. They wouldn't be able to even comprehend what "disobey" means.

As per the second question about "whether god wanted them to eat this fruit", . . . why even make it something that was desireable? Why not make it a "stinking bog of the knowledge of good and evil"? There is a great YouTube video that hits on this point about "Adam and Eve Take 1". God's plan was for them to fall, so there must have been a temptation placed in the garden for them to be tempted with, as well as allowing "the serpent" in it.

It might be better to base one's understanding of Christian theology in the Bible rather than YouTube videos! ;)

The fact is, no one knows why God created man, gave him the ability to fail, and went through this whole shebang. Anyone who is saying that they have the answer on this, is mistaken, deluded or just plain lying. The Scriptures relate the fact that He did, not necessarily why He did so.

Her lust was for gaining wisdom... to be like God.

Now Jeff, there you go, blaming the woman again...seems as if I remember some other man always blaming the woman...who was that again? Oh yeah, I remember now..."The woman, who YOU gave to me, gave me the fruit." Boy, male chauvisnism goes back a bit doesn't it! :p

 

[handy]

I think there is a disconnect here that won't be overcome. I do not see the passages as you all are saying they mean. A child may be able to repeat something a parent says to them, but they still do not KNOW what it means. Once again, and the last time I say it, the "knowledge of good and evil" can only be what it is. I see no reason to read it as "a partial knowledge".

I think this thread has come to an impass. Too many inconsistencies. For example, why Eve would feel the need to "be more than she was". Believing some created being more than god. Why? What deficiency was there in her mind? Why was she not happy with the perfect garden? Why allow the epitome of sin in the garden? Why a tree that WOULD [not could, but would] bring death?

Anyway, I have said all that I care to say . . . You all are more than welcome to continue discussing the story. Later.

Ahh, this was posted while I was composing my last post and I was just saying how much I've enjoyed the conversation.

It just doesn't seem as if this needs to be an impasse. I really think that the key here is this:

A child may be able to repeat something a parent says to them, but they still do not KNOW what it means.

This is true, but it doesn't necessarily mean that a child cannot simply obey what the parent said. Adam was not even a child, he was a fully intelligent adult. He might not have known about good or evil, but he knew that God said not to take the fruit.

As for Eve, all the jesting with Jeff aside, it is really important to remember that Eve DID NOT SIN!!! I cannot stress this enough. She most likely was perfectly happy in the garden with her husband. The thing is, she was being lied to, and she believed the lie. Her husband, who apparently was standing right there was not deceived, but decided to disobey God. However, the Bible does not relate why he did so, just that he did.

I'm not sure where you are getting the "partial knowledge" from, but a lot has been posted in the past few hours that I haven't read through. However, I think if you could but understand that the tree was not the significant part of the sin, it was the disobedience to God that was, then it becomes much clearer.

At any rate, this has been a good discussion and I hope that you will remain open to seeking after the Scriptures and what they say. I mean, You Tube videos are entertaining and all that, but sometimes we just need to crack open the Bible and really study what it actually says, not just listen to what others are saying that it's saying.

 

[Sparkey]

The fact is, no one knows why God created man, gave him the ability to fail, and went through this whole shebang. Anyone who is saying that they have the answer on this, is mistaken, deluded or just plain lying. The Scriptures relate the fact that He did, not necessarily why He did so.

Now Jeff, there you go, blaming the woman again...seems as if I remember some other man always blaming the woman...who was that again? Oh yeah, I remember now..."The woman, who YOU gave to me, gave me the fruit." Boy, male chauvisnism goes back a bit doesn't it! :p

What is the mystery?
Contrary to what is said, knowing the mystery that has been hidden does not mean delusion, deceit nor mistake. We are given hinds feet. Take joy!
______________________________________________________


[Mark 4:11 KJV] - And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables:

[Romans 16:25 KJV] - Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

[1 Corinthians 2:7 KJV] - But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

[1 Corinthians 15:51 KJV] - Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

[Ephesians 3:3 KJV] - How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

[Ephesians 5:32 KJV] - This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

[Ephesians 6:19 KJV] - And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,

[Colossians 1:26-27 KJV] - [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

[Colossians 2:2 KJV] - That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

[1 Timothy 3:9 KJV] - Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.

[Revelation 10:7 KJV] - But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

 

[stovebolts]

A child may be able to repeat something a parent says to them, but they still do not KNOW what it means.

While this may be partially true, it is not the case within the narrative we are discussing.

God said, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”

Here is the disconnect Deavon.

The command was for them not to eat from the tree. Clearly they understood what the command meant and even hedged it by saying that they could not even touch the tree. Let's be crystal clear. They knew what it meant when God said don't eat from that tree.

Your argument does not rest on the clear command that they not eat from that tree to which Adam and Eve clearly understood as attested by the narrative. Rather, your argument rests on the understanding of what is meant by understanding the "knowledge of good and evil".

By way of your own logic, if I told you not to take crack or your life would get all messed up, could you understand this, or would you have to experience for yourself what it was like to be on crack for you to really know what was meant by, "don't do crack"?

It sounds as if your saying we all need to take crack just so we can truly know what is meant by "Say no to crack or a piece of our life will die". Sometimes we just have to trust that the other guys looking out for us, and if we don't do the things were told not to do, we'll be better off for it. It's about trusting, and I don't understand why you can't see that

 

[stovebolts]

Now Jeff, there you go, blaming the woman again...seems as if I remember some other man always blaming the woman...who was that again? Oh yeah, I remember now..."The woman, who YOU gave to me, gave me the fruit." Boy, male chauvisnism goes back a bit doesn't it! :p

6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.

:D:D:D

But what a sad response from Adam huh?
The man said, “The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it.â€

Before he said, “This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh;

Where they were once one, they now are separated and for the first time, their differences where held against each other, thus, so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

My wife still can't get me to eat them Brussel Sprouts, nope, won't even touch em

 

[handy]

What is the mystery?
Contrary to what is said, knowing the mystery that has been hidden does not mean delusion, deceit nor mistake. We are given hinds feet. Take joy!
______________________________________________________


[Mark 4:11 KJV] - And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables:

[Romans 16:25 KJV] - Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

[1 Corinthians 2:7 KJV] - But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

[1 Corinthians 15:51 KJV] - Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

[Ephesians 3:3 KJV] - How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

[Ephesians 5:32 KJV] - This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

[Ephesians 6:19 KJV] - And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,

[Colossians 1:26-27 KJV] - [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

[Colossians 2:2 KJV] - That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

[1 Timothy 3:9 KJV] - Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.

[Revelation 10:7 KJV] - But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

I see what you are saying Spar, but I don't think that God has yet revealed to the saints the mystrey of why He created man, knowing that man would fall and many would die in hell for eternity. I think this is what Deavon was getting at in his reference to a You Tube video which seems to assert that God purposely intended for Adam to sin.

Jeff, good post! Deavon, Jeff is really being as clear as can be in his example about the "Don't do crack."

When I was a little girl, it was quite common for there to be a red skull and crossbones symbol on harmful things. My mother showed it to me and told me to never, ever eat or drink anything that had that symbol on it. It was on all sorts of things from DDT (readily available back then) to Draino. I did not need to understand what was within each container or understand what effect any of the products would have on my system. All I needed to do was to listen to Mom and obey her and not eat or drink anything that came from a container that had a red skull and crossbones symbol on it.

 

[stovebolts]

When I was a little girl, it was quite common for there to be a red skull and crossbones symbol on harmful things. My mother showed it to me and told me to never, ever eat or drink anything that had that symbol on it. It was on all sorts of things from DDT (readily available back then) to Draino. I did not need to understand what was within each container or understand what effect any of the products would have on my system. All I needed to do was to listen to Mom and obey her and not eat or drink anything that came from a container that had a red skull and crossbones symbol on it.

Hey, do you remember Mr. YUK? Wow, talk about jogging the memory

 

[stovebolts]

Welcome Asyncritus :waving

Great study you've done on this topic. I hope you don't mind, but I've moved it to the Bible Study forum.

http://www.christianforums.net/f34/adam-eve-serpent-32741/

I would encourage others to take a look at your very thought prevoking study.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Adam and Eve sinned because they were sinners, but just had not transgressed yet. Upon their creation they had not the ability to keep Gods Law perfectly as required of God, and the temptation of satan proved it..

 

[Deavonreye]

By way of your own logic, if I told you not to take crack or your life would get all messed up, could you understand this, or would you have to experience for yourself what it was like to be on crack for you to really know what was meant by, "don't do crack"?

I hear what you're saying with this analogy. So, what you're saying is that they actually did know that "being disobedient was wrong", but wouldn't understand it until they actually "took that bite".

Therefore, the "tree" should have been called the "tree of the understanding of good and evil".

I would like to focus on handy's notion of "Eve not having sinned". I'm not sure how you can say that. Perhaps you could explain a bit further. She was deceived, but still was ultimately "disobedient" as well, right?

 

[handy]

I would like to focus on handy's notion of "Eve not having sinned". I'm not sure how you can say that. Perhaps you could explain a bit further. She was deceived, but still was ultimately "disobedient" as well, right?

Yeah, Jeff was questioning me on this as well. Here is my answer to him:

... about the closest one get's to reading that Eve sinned is 1 Timothy 2:14 in which the word parabasis is used. Parabasis is far often translated as trangression rather than sin, and is defined (by Strong's at least) as a "going over" or a "breach" of the law, rising to a consciousness of sin and a desire for redemption.

Nowhere do we see a statement that Eve outright sinned, in the deliberate disobedience that Adam committed.

The word applied to Adam's disobedience is hamartano, which is translated as sin. It's interesting to do a word study on both. I've done so, and it leads me to believe that Eve's transgression, born out of deception was not a sin leading to death (see 1 John 5:16), but Adam's, born out of disobedience, was.

..............

Eve transgressed, yes, but, to my mind transgression is a bit softer than sin...sort of the difference between when my child does something wrong out of ignorance than when my darling child is standing in front of me, looking me straight in the eye and saying "NO! I WON'T!!!" (I have a teenager, if you have one you'll know what I mean.) Since the Scriptures use two different words, with similar but yet different meanings to describe the actions of Eve and the actions of Adam, I believe it is good for us to do so as well. It helps in the understanding.

We do not see in 1 Timothy, Romans 6 or even in Genesis 3 that the consequences of sin came until after Adam ate.

 

[Deavonreye]

So, one could say that "believing a well crafted statement that was less than the truth [yet with some truth added in]", can't really be concluded to be "a sin", because the person honestly believes it to be truthful.

 

[handy]

So, one could say that "believing a well crafted statement that was less than the truth [yet with some truth added in]", can't really be concluded to be "a sin", because the person honestly believes it to be truthful.

Yes, one could say that....

Not wanting to get into the politics, but let me use this comparison:

Remember the whole "Bush lied" thing? The premise was that when W. told us that there were WMD's in Iraq, he lied.

Now, there are two possibilities of what is actually truth here:

A: Bush lied. Bush knew darn well there were no WMD's but wanted to go to war so he lied.

B: Bush was misled. The intelligence officers, whose job it is to give accurate and complete information to the president, didn't give accurate or complete information. But, Bush, trusting his IO's to be doing their job the way they were supposed to, believed them, because they are supposed to be telling the truth.

If A is true, then Bush is guilty of lying.

If B is true, then Bush is not guilty of lying.

Now, the serpent told Eve some things...and we know that she believed him, because the Scriptures tell us that she did so. There is no sin in believing someone is telling you the truth, if you do not know that they are lying. We know that the serpent was lying...and we know that Adam didn't believe him, but chose to disobey God. But, we know that Eve was deceived. She did not sin in her belief of the lie, but was led into transgression because of it.

 

[Deavonreye]

handy, thank you for your input. I can see what you're saying here.

 

[Asyncritus]

Yeah, Jeff was questioning me on this as well. Here is my answer to him:

... about the closest one get's to reading that Eve sinned is 1 Timothy 2:14 in which the word parabasis is used. Parabasis is far often translated as trangression rather than sin, and is defined (by Strong's at least) as a "going over" or a "breach" of the law, rising to a consciousness of sin and a desire for redemption.

Nowhere do we see a statement that Eve outright sinned, in the deliberate disobedience that Adam committed.

The word applied to Adam's disobedience is hamartano, which is translated as sin. It's interesting to do a word study on both. I've done so, and it leads me to believe that Eve's transgression, born out of deception was not a sin leading to death (see 1 John 5:16), but Adam's, born out of disobedience, was.

..............

Eve transgressed, yes, but, to my mind transgression is a bit softer than sin...sort of the difference between when my child does something wrong out of ignorance than when my darling child is standing in front of me, looking me straight in the eye and saying "NO! I WON'T!!!" (I have a teenager, if you have one you'll know what I mean.) Since the Scriptures use two different words, with similar but yet different meanings to describe the actions of Eve and the actions of Adam, I believe it is good for us to do so as well. It helps in the understanding.

We do not see in 1 Timothy, Romans 6 or even in Genesis 3 that the consequences of sin came until after Adam ate.

Eve was the decent being in that whole miserable and evil scenario.

Her husband : the less said the better.

She 'became involved' in the transgression, says Paul. She suffered the fallout or collateral damage, as they say these days, and died as a consequence.

She was 'deceived' as she says, 'beguiled' as Paul says and is decidedly not the principal player in the drama.

I've put up what I think is a careful examination of the probabilities of what happened, with some speculation in it, in an effort to make sense of the big problems in the narrative, many of which have been raised here.

Have a look and let me have some comments.