Why did God create humans with the freewill to sin only to re-create glorified humans without the ability to sin?

[childeye]

I believe Paul did have a choice. Jesus had a plan for Saul but He knew what he would choose. He chose life in Jesus but he could still have chosen otherwise. Good thing for all of us that he did as he did.

Respectfully your post doesn't make sense to me. The events that happen throughout time would need to be inexorably interlinked so that the inevitable outcome will ultimately serve the end purpose of the Almighty. Hence there would be no believers in the Gospel if the Gospel was never preached nor heard. As Saul, and under the power that sought to silence the Gospel, he was already convinced that those spreading the Gospel were the enemies of God, or else he would not have been hunting them down and having them stoned to death with any righteous conviction. So to assume that he could have just as easily chosen to spread the Gospel rather than kill those preaching the Gospel is nonsensical.

As this is the case for Saul, then we must interpret the scripture as describing his conversion to Paul, as attributable to a higher power apart from himself, capable of changing his heart, mind and soul, and subsequently his will.

 

[WIP]

Respectfully your post doesn't make sense to me. The events that happen throughout time would need to be inexorably interlinked so that the inevitable outcome will ultimately serve the end purpose of the Almighty. Hence there would be no believers in the Gospel if the Gospel was never preached nor heard. As Saul, and under the power that sought to silence the Gospel, he was already convinced that those spreading the Gospel were the enemies of God, or else he would not have been hunting them down and having them stoned to death with any righteous conviction. So to assume that he could have just as easily chosen to spread the Gospel rather than kill those preaching the Gospel is nonsensical.

As this is the case for Saul, then we must interpret the scripture as describing his conversion to Paul, as attributable to a higher power apart from himself, capable of changing his heart, mind and soul, and subsequently his will.

If I understand you correctly then, Saul's conversion and how it happened was just for show to those who were with him when Jesus appeared otherwise there is no purpose or value in transforming Saul as Jesus did and I am finding what you're saying to be nonsensical just the same.

 

[MarkT]

The entire Bible reveals we are being tested. Those who pass will enter into Heaven, those who do not pass will never enter into Heaven. Let me rephrase "go with Satan" in a better way. "God is testing everyone to see if they will follow God or choose to follow satan" Your master is to whom you choose to obey, says Scriptures. But with this generation, how many SAY Jesus is their Master, yet they willingly choose to do those things which they know full well are sinful? Those who do such things, Fail to understand the Word of God that plainly teaches "your master is to whom you obey"



Are you suggesting that God would not be a Tyrant if God forced people to worship Him? Is it not commonly known that anyone who forces people to worship them, is considered a Tyrant? Therefore the statement i made that God is not a Tyrant is a True statement. God is not a tyrant and is not going to force anyone to serve Him, if they do not want to serve Him. Those who do not want to serve Him will not be allowed into Heaven, because He is not a Tyrant and is not going to MAKE anyone serve Him, if they don't want to serve Him.



This is True. But i am not referring to those who do not believe in Christ. i am talking to those who proclaim to be Christian, yet choose to obey His enemy and knowingly and willingly commit sin. Every time a person is tempted to commit sin, they choose to either obey God or obey satan (who is the one doing the tempting). God is saying "Don't do it, it is sinful, it is against ME, do the right thing, do the Godly thing". satan is saying "Do it, sure it is wrong, but just repent of it afterwards like you do all the time, you want to do it, just do it. Repent later" Who you choose to obey reveals who your master is.



lol, if that were True, then Jesus would have never said "A new commandment I give unto you, LOVE ONE ANOTHER" Sounds to me like Jesus thought is was something that you choose to do. He even commands us to do it. A man on the corner of the road with a sign asking for food. you choose to love him and help him, or you choose to judge him and not love him. You choose to give to this or that charity. You choose to help someone in need. You choose to give to the poor. You choose to LOVE.




What makes a person Righteous is doing that which is righteous.

1Jn_2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

Everyone that doeth righteousness is Righteous and born of Him. Woe to them who think they are Righteous yet do that which is UNrighteous while proclaiming with their lips they are Righteous. Those who Do righteousness are Righteous, those who do unrighteousness are unrighteous. simple really.

1Jn_3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous.



Devil worshipers show kindness to their own, devil worshipers show empathy for one of their own friends suffering in the world, devil worshipers feel joy and pain of others, devil worshipers love their own.



Just because a person has that Spirit in them, does not mean they are forced to choose to LOVE. i have the Spirit of Love in me, it does not MAKE me do anything at all. It merely prompts me to LOVE, the choice is mine to make. i see a bum on the street corner asking for money or food. Does the Spirit of Love force me to give to that bum, or does that Spirit prompt me to Love him and help him out? The choice is mine to make. No spirit, good or bad, can FORCE you to do anything at all (save possession cases) You choose which one you will listen to and which one you will deny. Know you not that when Good is present evil is present to (on Earth right now) Where evil is there is also good. When you have an opportunitity to help a bum on the corner, that would a be a good thing, but evil is present also telling you not to give to the bum. Whether you Love or fail to Love, it is most certainly a choice you make. That is why Jesus COMMANDED us Christians to "Love One Another" to "Love our enemies" to "Do good to those who do bad to you" You choose to Love or choose not to Love.



Can Atheists have goodness towards one another? Can Atheists Love One Another. Love is not exclusive to only Christians. Yes Love is a Spiritual force for goodness towards one another, i agree. But it is not limited to only Christians. Just because the Holy Ghost resides in a professed Christians does not mean that person will be overflowing with LOVE for others now does it? Because we choose to Love or not to Love, even if we have the Holy Ghost residing in us. When a person chooses not to Love and that person has the Holy Ghost, that is when the Holy Ghost is grieved. The Holy Ghost in us, does not MAKE us Love, as it seems childeye is saying, which i could be wrong.



True, but even demons are His children, they are fallen children.



No matter how you slice it, you still choose to worship or not worship. NOBODY worships or praises God without choosing to do so, Even when a person is moved by the Holy Ghost, they still choose to do that which they are moved to do, they are NOT moved by the Holy Ghost, They choose to act upon what the Holy Ghost is moving them to do.



Tyrant = a cruel and oppressive ruler.

God is not a Tyrant = True Statement.
God does not force anyone to worship Him = True Statement.

We most certainly decide whether or not we worship God or praise Him, it is called Free Will. NOBODY worships God without choosing to do so.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

I disagree. I don't think anyone would be able to enter the kingdom if it was left up to us to choose, because man is inherently evil, as the Scripture says, 'for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth Gen. 8:21

So there must be some supernatural force, call it God's will, at work in a man that makes him believe.

Fortunately we were found. God didn't leave it up to us to find our way in the dark.

 

[WIP]

I disagree. I don't think anyone would be able to enter the kingdom if it was left up to us to choose, because man is inherently evil, as the Scripture says, 'for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth Gen. 8:21

So there must be some supernatural force, call it God's will, at work in a man that makes him believe.

Fortunately we were found. God didn't leave it up to us to find our way in the dark.

This is a good point. Now, reconcile this for us with all the Scripture that warns us to live by the Spirit, work out our own salvation, repent, believe on Jesus, and so on. If it was God working in us even though our desire is for evil, then all of Jesus' warnings and direction to live righteously are of no value.

 

[chessman]

reconcile this for us with all the Scripture that warns us to live by the Spirit, work out our own salvation, repent, believe on Jesus, and so on.

And God said _____ and there was _____.

And God said, “Let there be light!” And there was light.​

Genesis 1:3 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Genesis 1:3&version=LEB

And falling to the ground, he heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” So he said, “Who are you, Lord?” And he said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting! But get up and enter into the city, and it will be told to you what you must do.”​

Acts 9:4-6 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Acts 9:4-6&version=LEB

But the Lord said to him, “Go, because this man is my chosen instrument to carry my name before Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel. For I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.”​

Acts 9:15-16 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Acts 9:15-16&version=LEB

And immediately he began proclaiming Jesus in the synagogues: “This one is the Son of God!” And all who heard him were amazed, and were saying, “Is this not the one who was wreaking havoc in Jerusalem on those who call upon this name, and had come here for this reason, that he could bring them tied up to the chief priests?” But Saul was increasing in strength even more, and was confounding the Jews who lived in Damascus by proving that this one is the Christ.​

Acts 9:20-22 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Acts 9:20-22&version=LEB

 

[WIP]

And God said _____ and there was _____.

And God said, “Let there be light!” And there was light.​

Genesis 1:3 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Genesis 1:3&version=LEB

And falling to the ground, he heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” So he said, “Who are you, Lord?” And he said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting! But get up and enter into the city, and it will be told to you what you must do.”​

Acts 9:4-6 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Acts 9:4-6&version=LEB

But the Lord said to him, “Go, because this man is my chosen instrument to carry my name before Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel. For I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.”​

Acts 9:15-16 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Acts 9:15-16&version=LEB

And immediately he began proclaiming Jesus in the synagogues: “This one is the Son of God!” And all who heard him were amazed, and were saying, “Is this not the one who was wreaking havoc in Jerusalem on those who call upon this name, and had come here for this reason, that he could bring them tied up to the chief priests?” But Saul was increasing in strength even more, and was confounding the Jews who lived in Damascus by proving that this one is the Christ.​

Acts 9:20-22 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Acts 9:20-22&version=LEB

I am not catching what your tossing my way. Can you provide a laymen's explanation? Thanks.

 

[chessman]

Can you provide a laymen's explanation?

As a Bible believer, we believe God’s word is truth. Whatever God says will happen, that’s what happens.

Example #1:

And God said, “Let there be light!” And there was light.​

Prior to there being light, God said “Let there be light” and that’s exactly what happened. Because He said so, it happened.

Example #2 (fast-forward to God speaking to Saul of Tarsus, persecutor of the first Christians):

But get up and enter into the city, and it will be told to you what you must do.”​

Acts 9:6

Prior to there even being an apostle for Christ called Paul, God said to Saul “It will be told to you what you must do” and that’s exactly what happened for the rest of Saul’s life, just like Jesus said it must.

So the reconciliation of God always saying what must happen prior to it actually happening in the rest of Scripture with that of a creature’s will/choice to sometimes will otherwise (live against the Spirit), seems simple enough. God knew the truth about Saul’s future (what he must do) before it happened and said so, affirming it to happen.

So how does it reconcile with Scripture when a Christ follower desires to follow desires against the Spirit???

And having come opposite Mysia, they were trying to proceed into Bithynia and the Spirit of Jesus did not allow them.​

Acts 16:7 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Acts 16:7&version=DLNT

 

[WIP]

As a Bible believer, we believe God’s word is truth. Whatever God says will happen, that’s what happens.

Example #1:

And God said, “Let there be light!” And there was light.​

Prior to there being light, God said “Let there be light” and that’s exactly what happened. Because He said so, it happened.

Example #2 (fast-forward to God speaking to Saul of Tarsus, persecutor of the first Christians):

But get up and enter into the city, and it will be told to you what you must do.”​

Acts 9:6

Prior to there even being an apostle for Christ called Paul, God said to Saul “It will be told to you what you must do” and that’s exactly what happened for the rest of Saul’s life, just like Jesus said it must.

So the reconciliation of God always saying what must happen prior to it actually happening in the rest of Scripture with that of a creature’s will/choice to sometimes will otherwise (live against the Spirit), seems simple enough. God knew the truth about Saul’s future (what he must do) before it happened and said so, affirming it to happen.

So how does it reconcile with Scripture when a Christ follower desires to follow desires against the Spirit???

And having come opposite Mysia, they were trying to proceed into Bithynia and the Spirit of Jesus did not allow them.​

Acts 16:7 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Acts 16:7&version=DLNT

So then what is all about? God created us to do exactly as He would have us do. God tells us that if we do not believe we are condemned by our unbelief. God tells us to walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh. God tells us to avoid sin. God tells us to repent. God tells us to follow His commands. God tells us that those of us that do not believe will be cast into the lake of fire.

But what I hear you saying to me is that God is the author of our actions, our choices, our decisions, our fate. Therefore..., what is the purpose of telling us to repent when we are not the ones that determine if or when we will repent? What is the purpose of telling us to believe when it is God that will decide if and when we will believe? What is the purpose of telling us to walk in the Spirit when it is God that will decided if and when we will walk in the Spirit? What is the purpose of telling us to follow His commands when it is God that will decide if and when we follow His commands. What is the purpose of evangelists, preachers, teachers, and prophets? Their work is useless because God directly controls everyone.

Based on what you're saying we are nothing but mindless puppets and I might be inclined to just chuck it all and live my life without caring whether or not I am living the life God would have for me because in the end, God has already determined my fate and it doesn't matter if I listen to His warnings, commands, and even His desires. But how can I do that if God controls me in that way. So, if I decide right now to throw Christianity out the window, leave my wife and family, and begin a life with carefree abandon, drinking, carousing, engaging in orgies of all kinds, it is not me that would actually be choosing to do so but God himself?

I'm having a difficult time buying this. The whole of Scripture doesn't come together for me with this line of thinking. At least not today.

Edit: Just want to let you know, chessman, I am not trying to debate with you but rather want to understand the theology you are presenting. I shared the above because that is what I am hearing from what you've written and I am asking for your help in understanding your point of view accurately.

 

[MarkT]

On a recent STR Ask podcast, Greg Koukl was asked: “Since we will presumably have free will in Heaven and yet be unable to sin, why didn’t God just make things that way in the first place?”

Greg’s response: “I think that is one of the most difficult questions to answer and I have a general answer but it’s not one I am certain of because this is another one of those; 'Why did God … kind of questions.” Greg's typically response to those kind of questions (Why did God…do such and such) is; If the Bible doesn’t say why God did such and such, then we are guessing at the answer, and likely wrong.

Given the unsubstantiated assumption made in the questioner’s question (we will be unable to sin in Heaven), how would you answer the question? I have some thoughts to post later.


https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/strask-with-greg-koukl/id1030958668?mt=2&i=1000409237166

Did God give us freewill so we can sin? I don't think so. But there's the suggestion that unless you can sin, you're not really free. I would argue that slavery is not freedom.

So there won't be any cause of sin in his kingdom. Mt. 13:41 RSV All causes of sin and all evildoers will be gathered out of his kingdom and thrown into the furnace of fire.

 

[Edward]

This answers the original question. I think the Holy Spirit made me click on this.

 

[chessman]

But what I hear you saying to me is that God is the author of our actions,......

I didn’t say that God is the author of our actions nor do I believe that

But what I hear you saying to me is that God is the author of ...our choices, ...

I didn’t say that nor do I believe that

But what I hear you saying to me is that God is the author of ... our decisions ...

I didn’t say that nor do I believe that

Based on what you're saying we are nothing but mindless puppets ...

Again, I didn’t say the things above that you understood me to be saying. Want to correct that(Your choice)

what I hear you saying to me is that God is the author of ... our fate.

I didn’t say that either but I do believe that

Because He set a day on which He is going to judge the world in righteousness by a Man Whom He designated, having granted a proof to everyone— having raised Him up from the dead”.​

Acts 17:31 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Acts 17:31&version=DLNT

QUOTE="WIP, post: 1480838, member: 1127"]I am asking for your help in understanding your point of view accurately.[/QUOTE]
Okay, here goes. My point of view is:

For in Him we live and move and exist, ... ‘For we are indeed the One’s offspring’.​

Acts 17:28 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Acts 17:28&version=DLNT

Therefore..., what is the purpose of telling us to repent

So that we might find Him.

And He made from one man every nation of mankind, that they should dwell upon all the face of the earth, having determined the times having been appointed for them and the boundaries of their dwelling-places; that they should seek God— if perhaps indeed they might grope-for Him and find Him, though indeed He being not far from each one of us. ...​

So indeed, having overlooked the times of ignorance, God, as to the present things, is commanding people that everyone everywhere should repent.​

Acts 17:26-30 DLNT

Note, those who are judged righteous dwell with Him. Our time is “appointed”, like Paul’s was in Damascus:

What is the purpose of telling us to believe ...

So that whoever does believe in Him has eternal life and dwells in Him and indeed with Him:

And Crispus, the synagogue-official, believed in the Lord with his whole household. And many of the Corinthians hearing were believing and being baptized. And the Lord said to Paul during the night through a vision, “Do not be afraid, but be speaking and do not be silent— because I am with you, and no one will set-upon you to harm you; because there is a large people for Me in this city”. And he sat for a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.​

Acts 18:8-11 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Acts 18:8-11&version=DLNT

And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying “Behold— the dwelling of God is with mankind. And He will dwell with them. And they themselves will be His peoples. And God Himself with them will be their God.​

Revelation 21:3 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 21:3&version=DLNT


Hope that helps explain example #2:

Example #2 (fast-forward to God speaking to Saul of Tarsus, persecutor of the first Christians):

But get up and enter into the city, and it will be told to you what you must do.”Acts 9:6

Prior to there even being an apostle for Christ called Paul, God said to Saul “It will be told to you what you must do” and that’s exactly what happened for the rest of Saul’s life, just like Jesus said it must.

 

[WIP]

Okay, here goes. My point of view is:

For in Him we live and move and exist, ... ‘For we are indeed the One’s offspring’.​

Acts 17:28 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Acts 17:28&version=DLNT


So that we might find Him.

And He made from one man every nation of mankind, that they should dwell upon all the face of the earth, having determined the times having been appointed for them and the boundaries of their dwelling-places; that they should seek God— if perhaps indeed they might grope-for Him and find Him, though indeed He being not far from each one of us. ...​

So indeed, having overlooked the times of ignorance, God, as to the present things, is commanding people that everyone everywhere should repent.​

Acts 17:26-30 DLNT

Note, those who are judged righteous dwell with Him. Our time is “appointed”, like Paul’s was in Damascus:


So that whoever does believe in Him has eternal life and dwells in Him and indeed with Him:

And Crispus, the synagogue-official, believed in the Lord with his whole household. And many of the Corinthians hearing were believing and being baptized. And the Lord said to Paul during the night through a vision, “Do not be afraid, but be speaking and do not be silent— because I am with you, and no one will set-upon you to harm you; because there is a large people for Me in this city”. And he sat for a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.​

Acts 18:8-11 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Acts 18:8-11&version=DLNT

And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying “Behold— the dwelling of God is with mankind. And He will dwell with them. And they themselves will be His peoples. And God Himself with them will be their God.​

Revelation 21:3 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 21:3&version=DLNT


Hope that helps explain example #2:

Thanks for your reply. I know you didn't say the exact words that I used, which you quoted above, but as I read through your previous postings, what I was gathering from them was that God determines what each of us will do.

In our weekly prayer breakfast this morning, we read from Deuteronomy 13 and the first five verses say the following.

1 “If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods’—which you have not known—‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice; you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him. 5 But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has spoken in order to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of bondage, to entice you from the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall put away the evil from your midst.

After reading this the first thought that came to my mind is if, as indicated in verse 3, God was the cause of the prophet arising and saying, "Let us go after other gods" then why does God hold this prophet responsible and require that he be stoned to death?

This is related to Isaiah 45:7 (NKJV) which reads as follows.

I form the light and create darkness,
I make peace and create calamity;
I, the Lord, do all these things.’


The KJV renders it this way.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

So, what my question is, if God determines what each of us will do and God is the creator of evil, why then does God hold us responsible for our own sin?

 

[chessman]

So, what my question is, if God determines what each of us will do and God is the creator of evil, why then does God hold us responsible for our own sin?

I don’t understand why this would be questionable. You said it was “our sin”, right?

If the law says you may only turn right at a red stop light after stopping and only if there is no oncoming traffic and you turn right into oncoming traffic, is it not right for you to be held responsible to the law? If the law giver created the stop light and the turn right on red law, does that somehow make the law responsible?

Let’s look at a specific Biblical example (Herod and Pilate):

For in accordance with [Your] truth, both Herod and Pontius Pilate together with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel were gathered-together in this city against Your holy servant Jesus Whom You anointed, to do all-that Your hand and Your purpose predestined to take place.​

Acts 4:27-28 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Acts 4:27-28&version=DLNT

Who’s responsible for the sin of executing Jesus , in your opinion, them or God?

 

[WIP]

I don’t understand why this would be questionable. You said it was “our sin”, right?

If the law says you may only turn right at a red stop light after stopping and only if there is no oncoming traffic and you turn right into oncoming traffic, is it not right for you to be held responsible to the law? If the law giver created the stop light and the turn right on red law, does that somehow make the law responsible?

Let’s look at a specific Biblical example (Herod and Pilate):

For in accordance with [Your] truth, both Herod and Pontius Pilate together with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel were gathered-together in this city against Your holy servant Jesus Whom You anointed, to do all-that Your hand and Your purpose predestined to take place.​

Acts 4:27-28 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Acts 4:27-28&version=DLNT

Who’s responsible for the sin of executing Jesus , in your opinion, them or God?

Your analogy doesn't compare apples to apples. In your analogy, I am the one choosing to disobey the law. Your analogy would be more accurate to my question if it was the justice system that forced me to disobey the law and then that same justice system held me responsible.

 

[chessman]

Your analogy doesn't compare apples to apples.

Granted, but with a sample size of One God, I’m not sure how anyone could come up with a perfect analogy. What you and I are discussing is two of the most complex of all Theological issues (The ‘Problem’ of Evil and creaturely ‘free’ will). Just trying to simplify things a little and it was just something I’d thought of to that end.

In your analogy, I am the one choosing to disobey the law.

And the problem with that is ....??? Again, it is not my understanding of ANY Scripture (you’d asked for reconciliation of Scripture) that men (Saul/Paul, Herod, Pilate, you, me) are not choosing things.

Your analogy would be more accurate to my question if it was the justice system that forced me to disobey the law and then that same justice system held me responsible.

The justice system (legal system) sets moral standards before people who then choose to either obey those standards or not. Their choice. In my mind, that’s pretty analogous to God’s Law. Thus I think it helps me understand the reconciliation you’d asked about.

Anyway, after precisely reading Acts 4:27-28, what do you think; Who’s responsible for the sin of executing Jesus, in your opinion, them or God?

 

[WIP]

Granted, but with a sample size of One God, I’m not sure how anyone could come up with a perfect analogy. What you and I are discussing is two of the most complex of all Theological issues (The ‘Problem’ of Evil and creaturely ‘free’ will). Just trying to simplify things a little and it was just something I’d thought of to that end.

And the problem with that is ....??? Again, it is not my understanding of ANY Scripture (you’d asked for reconciliation of Scripture) that men (Saul/Paul, Herod, Pilate, you, me) are not choosing things.

The justice system (legal system) sets moral standards before people who then choose to either obey those standards or not. Their choice. In my mind, that’s pretty analogous to God’s Law. Thus I think it helps me understand the reconciliation you’d asked about.

Anyway, after precisely reading Acts 4:27-28, what do you think; Who’s responsible for the sin of executing Jesus, in your opinion, them or God?

I agree with you completely that this is a very complex thing to grasp.

With regard to Acts 4, I don't know if the question is who is responsible so much as who does God hold responsible? If God holds Herod and Pilot responsible then my question is, "Why, since it was predetermined by God that they would do exactly what they did because it was what He purposed?"

It would be similar to me telling one of my children to steal something and then punishing them for stealing it.

 

[chessman]

With regard to Acts 4, I don't know if the question is who is responsible so much as who does God hold responsible?

If God holds them responsible... well... they are the ones responsible.

If God holds Herod and Pilot responsible then my question is, "Why, since it was predetermined by God that they would do exactly what they did because it was what He purposed?"

This Text is not silent on this issue. Notice:

The kings of the earth took-their-stand, and the rulers were gathered-together at the same place against the Lord, and against His Anointed- One’.​

Acts 4:26 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Acts 4:26&version=DLNT

They made their choice (took their stand). And it was “their” stand. Nothing even remotely resembling a puppet in this Text. I simply see zero conflict with their choices and God’s predestined purpose for them. It’s like Joseph’s brothers choice and God’s purposes for them.

It would be similar to me telling one of my children to steal something and then punishing them for stealing it.

God (through Jesus’ signs and miracles) gave them ample instruction on what was right. I’m unaware of any Text whereby God told Herod and Pilate to execute Jesus.

 

[atpollard]

It would be similar to me telling one of my children to steal something and then punishing them for stealing it.

It would be more like one of your children being addicted to opiates. So you bail them out and drive them home. You now have two choices, you can lock them in the house or you can allow them outside where they will find and use more drugs. You do not need to “tell” your child to take drugs, they will do that on their own. You only have a choice about whether you will prevent them from acting on their darker nature or grant them the freedom to do wrong.

God is not the source of evil. God is the invisible hand of restraint ... until he lifts that hand of restraint.

[Romans 1:24, 26, 28 NIV]
24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts ...
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts...
28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind ...

Notice what God did not do, and what God did do. God told no one to sin. God forced no one to sin. God released his hand of restraint and allowed them the freedom to sin ... to obey their hearts and flesh and mind.

 

[MarkT]

This is a good point. Now, reconcile this for us with all the Scripture that warns us to live by the Spirit, work out our own salvation, repent, believe on Jesus, and so on. If it was God working in us even though our desire is for evil, then all of Jesus' warnings and direction to live righteously are of no value.

I don't see any conflict. We're talking about two different things. I'm talking about believing Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God and I'm saying believing is the work of God. And when a man is born again, according to the teaching of our Lord, the Father and the Son will make their home with the man. John 14:23 RSV So God is working in us.

 

[Hermit]

...“Since we will presumably have free will in Heaven and yet be unable to sin, why didn’t God just make things that way in the first place?”
...

So we can learn free-will unconditionality.
Think about it. If you question it, then you still don't understand.