Bible Study Why did Jesus need to be Baptized ?

[wavy]

Now Wavy has contended that this understanding of Christ's baptism is "mystical," and that the bible doesn't go there.

Yeah, except the entire book of Revelation, Daniel, and Ezekiel, not to mention the remaining prophetic scriptures that I shall not name.

Christianity itself is a mystical understanding of the Hebrew scriptures, as any Jew will point out- and argue against.

Then by definition, I am not a Christian according to you, because I do not see the scriptures as you do (from this "mystical" viewpoint). Ezekiel, Daniel, Revelation, and the ones you "shall not name" have little do with anything you said about Messiah and his baptism...

But if you find it problematic to understand that the Pure One purifies that which He enters, then consider this: The Baptism of Christ was the beginning of His being revealed to the world
"Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world"
"This is my Beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased...listen to Him."

This is irrelevant to anything. You've misapplied the scripture. The justification is vague, imo. Sorry I do not have super-spiritual lapse periods where my mind wanders in mysticism until I've figured out the true answer...although it is suprisingly absent from scripture.

 

[Solo]

If you have been born again (born of God) you are a Christian, and if you are not born again (born of God), you are not a Christian.

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Why was Jesus baptized, he was without sin , but when he came to Jhon he said this. Matthew 3:13-15 Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him. 14 And John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?†15 ( But Jesus answered and said to him, “Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.â€Â) Then he allowed Him." Why do you think he had to be baptized? Since many think it is not nessasary for us to be baptized.


Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the children of God.

He was baptised to fulfill ALL righteousness.

 

[Imagican]

Funny guys, but the only historical accounts of Christ's childhood, (other than His trip to Jerusalem), are noted in books that are not contained in the Bible. If you were to read these accounts it's kind of like Jesus as a child was certainly NOT without sin as applies to our lives.

If you discredit the reference that I make then we have absolutely no historical information of who or what Jesus was as a child. I ask you guys the same question that was asked by Greyfeather on this thread but a step further. What is the significance of our being told of the event. Why were we told that the Spirit of God descended upon Him like a dove and a voice from heaven was heard to say, this is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased. Please, explain to this ignorant soul why, if Christ were indeed God, this was offered in the Word.

And the ONLY account that is offered in the Word, (KJV), is Jesus telling His parents, "Didn't you know that I would be in the house of my Father. Was God the Father of Christ or was He only the Father of Jesus? Was there a difference between Jesus of Nazareth and Jesus the Christ? And if Jesus were the I am upon His birth, wouldn't He have known it? And when satan was tempting Jesus, didn't satan tell Jesus to call upon His Father to send an angel to protect Him? That would be an indication that satan himself recognized Jesus as the Son of God.

 

[eprom]

From Article:
http://www.faith-friends.com/index.php? ... &Itemid=48

"To delve deeper into this question, we need to have a better view of biblical background and geographic landscape of John’s baptism:
1) Biblical Background - Messianic scholars point to the traditional of Mikvah as a significant aspect of John’s baptism, which was the ancient practice of consecrating priests with living water to prepare them for their work of ministry, and cleansing the animals with living water before their sacrifice. During Jesus time, Mikvah was the formal way Gentiles converted to Judaism, so those who were being baptized submitted to a rite that identified them as one who was no better off than a gentile – an act of genuine humility and repentance.

2) Geographic Landscape - It states in the gospel of John 1:27 that John was baptizing in Bethabara or Bethany beyond the Jordan, where Bethabara signifies “The House of Passageâ€Â, and beyond the Jordan suggests they were on the eastern side of the Jordan River. So John’s baptism wasn’t just carried out anywhere he could find water, he was baptizing people in the Jordan. Like Abraham being called a Hebrew, or like Jacob being renamed Israel, those who were being baptized made their way across this river into the promised land as new and consecrated people. The fact that Matthew’s gospel explicitly states in 3:13 that Jesus came to be baptized in the Jordan River suggests that he too was identifying with this symbolic rite of passage across the river.

For many of you, the significance of Jesus’ baptism is just coming into focus for the very first time, but we can’t stop here as water is only starting to wash over our ankles at this point. To connect these two ideas of the Jordan crossing and Mikvah together, it’s essential to point out at this time that the formal name Adam never appears in the original Hebrew text of Genesis. The name Adam was first transliterated directly from Hebrew into Greek around the third century BC in what would become known as the Septuagint. Every time you read Adam in the Old Testament, know that the proper translation of the Hebrew term “'adam†should be understood as “the manâ€Â. This fact brings considerable light into the habitually used phrase Jesus identifies himself with, which was the “son of manâ€Â. 30 times in Matthew, 16 times in Mark, 27 times in Luke, and 11 times in the gospel of John, Jesus calls himself the “son of manâ€Â. This is also a term that’s used over 100 times in the Old Testament, and is particularly associated to the Messiah in Daniel 7:13. In fact, every genealogy listing in the Bible directly tiesesus together with his father Adam through the two terms “the man†and “the son of a manâ€Â."

Lots more on this here

 

[greyfeather]

eprom,

I have a question on a part of your post. You said that in hebrew the word adam means the man. I remembered something in Genesis 5 and it occurred to me how odd that that would make the word adam. This is what I mean it says this......Genesis 5

1This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

2Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.


Of course that in itself is confusing that this is yet another account of creation of man and women , the 3rd to be exact.

Sorry this is off topic but something I need to show you. I have also heard on the history chanell that adam in hebrew meant people.

 

[protos]

Funny guys, but the only historical accounts of Christ's childhood, (other than His trip to Jerusalem), are noted in books that are not contained in the Bible. If you were to read these accounts it's kind of like Jesus as a child was certainly NOT without sin as applies to our lives.

Could you please name these extra-Biblical sources and how they supposedly suggest Jesus as a child was not without sin.

 

[Terral]

The Holy Spirit Moving From Tabernacle To Tabernacle

Hi GreyFeather:

Thank you for asking this very good question.

GreyFeather >> Why was Jesus baptized, he was without sin, but when he came to John he said this. (snip) Why do you think he had to be baptized? Since many think it is not necessary for us to be baptized.

The answer is difficult to explain, so please bear with me. Consider that an unbroken thread exists between the “Spirit†of Genesis 1:2 moving across the waters and the “Spirit†saying “come†in Revelation 22:17 running all the way through God’s Living Word. Imagine that this same “Spirit†is represented by the “tree of life†(Gen. 2:9), the Spirit of the Holy of Holies in the Tabernacle of Moses and Temple and the same Spirit that would descend like a dove upon Christ in the Jordan River (Matt. 3:15+16). Note carefully that Christ is said to be “full of the Holy Spirit†(Luke 4:1) just after this baptism from John. This is the same Holy Spirit of the Temple, when Zacharias entered there in Luke 1:5-9 and the same Holy Spirit with which John was Baptized in his mother’s womb (Luke 1:15). Then compare those truths to what John the Baptist says about God who sent him (John 1:6) and His precise instructions:

“I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me (John 1:6) to baptize in water said to me, 'He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.' "I myself HAVE SEEN, and have testified that this is the Son of God." John 1:33+34.

John the Baptist is the ‘messenger’ (Isa. 40:3) sent to prepare the way for the Lord (Mal. 3:1) coming to His Temple, which is the house of the Lord built for the purpose of housing the same “Spirit†being passed from John the Baptist to Christ like the runners in a relay race passing a baton. Note carefully that John said “He must increase, but I must decrease†(John 3:30), as the Holy Spirit baton was passed from God’s witness (spirit) to the witness of water and blood (1John 5:6). Jesus Christ would tell His Disciples later of the same exact baton handing process that would also include them, saying,

"But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper (Holy Spirit) will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.†John 16:7.

Christ had to leave the equation here on earth in similar fashion to John the Baptist, before the Holy Spirit would fall on them at Pentecost. The Holy Spirit baton would be passed again from the prophetic kingdom ‘bride’ (John 3:29) to the mystery ‘body’ (Eph. 5:30+32) and from Peter’s “apostleship to the circumcised†(Gal. 2:8) to Paul’s apostleship “to the Gentiles†of the same verse. Peter’s kingdom church (Matt. 16:16-19) became those ‘cut off’ (Rev. 20:4) who will judge over Israel (Luke 22:30), but our mystery church shall judge the world and the angels (1Cor. 6:2+3). Therefore, Christ’s baptism by John the Baptist was about the Son offering the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ (Matt. 4:23, 9:35, etc.) during the Four Gospels just like John the Baptist (Matt. 3:1-6), just like the Twelve would continue doing (Matt. 24:14) into the Book of Acts by the same “Holy Spirit†in their bodies.

The part of this story folks rarely ask about concerns the sin of John the Baptist and how he was never baptized by any other human being; because his was done by the Holy Spirit Himself in the womb of his mother (John 1:15). Christ was also formed in the womb by the overshadowing of the Holy Spirit (Luke 1:35) by the ‘power of the Most High (Father),’ but the passing of the Holy Spirit from the spirit witness (John the Baptist) to the blood witness (Son of God) has nothing to do with anything related to ‘sin.’ 2Cor. 5:21.

Thank you again for asking this very good question,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[Bick]

Why did Jesus need to be baptized?

Interesting thread, with lots of ideas. And not all have the scriptures to back them. Let's reason from the Scriptures. Many of these have been quoted:

All four Gospels have this account in them. One must put them all together to get the full picture: Quotes are from the AV:

Matt.3:15-17: "Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness....And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

OK, John must have known Jesus was a righteous man not needing to confess his sins and be baptized. Because, when we read from John's Gospel, we learn that while John the Baptizer knew ahead of time, that there was one coming after him, whose shoe latchet he was not worthy to unloose, etc, John 1:27; but he hadn't identified him.

Another reason Jesus allowed John to baptize Him, was that He should be made manifest to Israel. John 1:31, "And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing."

The HS decending like a dove and remaining on Jesus after He stepped out of the water, must have been seen, not only by Jesus and John, but to the multitudes. If they heard and understood the voice from heaven, it doesn't say, but I believe they did. John 1:33, "And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God." And there is the account of the voice from heaven.

So, John only knew certain things ahead of time; but the HS descending as a dove and remaining on Jesus, was the sign to John who Jesus was, ie, the Son of God. Another reason why Jesus was baptized.

In reading through all the accounts, no where do I find that after His being baptized, that He was 'filled with the Holy Spirit,' or given 'a special portion'. I believe He was already full of the HS as Luke 4:1 tell us, "And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from the Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness."

John 3:34 says, "For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him." God did not limit how much of the Spirit he gave Jesus. It was over flowing, to use my words.

In Luke 2:40 we read, concerning Jesus as a boy: "And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom, and the grace of God was upon him."

After his being baptized, he was driven by the Spirit into the wilderness, to fast for 40 days. And we know he was tested by the devil, and was victorious. "And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about."

Maybe it's after we have withstood the trials of the devil, that we too, can be specially endued with the Spirit's power.

God bless, Bick

 

[Terral]

Christ Received The Holy Spirit Baton From John The Baptist

Hi Bick:

Thank you for the good post above. We are in agreement on most of what you said, but you steered off course here:

Bick >> In reading through all the accounts, no where do I find that after His being baptized, that He was 'filled with the Holy Spirit,' or given 'a special portion'. I believe He was already full of the HS as Luke 4:1 tell us, "And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from the Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness."

If you will turn in your Bible back to Luke 3, you will find the same account as Matthew 3:15-16 where Christ is just baptized by John. He is said to be ‘full of the Holy Spirit’ AFTER His baptism and the Holy Spirit fell on Him at the Jordan.

“Now when all the people were baptized, Jesus was also baptized, and while He was praying, heaven was opened, and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came out of heaven, "You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased." Luke 3:21-22.

The key here is that the Holy Spirit baton is being passed from John the Baptist to Christ, as this marks the moment that Christ began to increase and John decreased (John 3:30). This transfer of the Helper (John 14:16) from John the Baptist (spirit witness of the kingdom) to Christ (blood witness of the kingdom) would take place again between Christ and the Twelve (water witnesses of the Kingdom) on the Day of Pentecost. Christ prophesies and says to them,

"But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.†John 16:7.

We can see a thread running from Genesis 1:2 to Revelation 22:17 where the same Spirit is in the garden as the ‘tree of life,’ in the Tabernacle of Moses above the Ark, in the Temple and with Zacharias (Luke 1) and John the Baptist (Luke 1:15). Christ calls Himself the ‘Son of Man’ only after receiving the Holy Spirit from John the Baptist to begin His ministry, which I described in the post above yours.

Thank you for writing,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[Bick]

Why did Jesus need to be baptized?

Hi Terral: Yes, it says in Luke 4:1 that 'Jesus, full of Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan, and was led by the Spirit in the desert...' But, to assume Jesus wasn't 'given the spirit without measure' already, and now is going to get more Spirit, doesn't make sense. And nowhere does it say the Holy Spirit 'fell on Him.' The Spirit of God, as a dove descended out of heaven and lighted on Him. As a bird, it flew, it didn't fall.

I don't understand how you came up with the idea of John passing the 'Holy Spirit baton' to Christ. The 'paraclete', 'the Helper', was to come from the Father, not from John. Read John 14:16 and 25. And after Christ ascended would He send it. Read John 15:26 and 16:7.

Quoting John 4:29,30 from the NIV, "The bride belongs to the bridegroom. The friend who attends the bridgroom waits and listens for him, and is full of joy when he hears the bridegroom's voice. That joy is mine, and it is now complete. He must becoming greater; I must becoming less."

John the Baptist joy was complete when he heard Jesus voice and knew He was the bridegroom. Then, John said "He must be becoming greater; I must becoming less." Not after Jesus was baptized and HS, as a dove descended and lighted on Him.

It is true that Jesus referring to himself as 'the son of man' was after his being baptized, and being manifested to Israel. But I find no connection. Are you making too much of Jesus being baptized?

God bless you, Bick

 

[starbyfar]

Now I wonder, Imagican, if John was filled with the Holy Spirit from the beginning of his life, but Jesus wasn't, why it isn't John the Forerunner that was caled Messiah

Christ was baptized to provide an example to us. Baptism is an outward expression of how we as Christians were buried and resurrected with Christ. I don't believe that baptism is what saves, but I do believe it is a mandatory condition of discipleship.

But, this is a really good question. I was always under the notion that no one recieved the Holy Spirit until pentecost.. I never took the time to look at the instance where the bible speaks of John the Baptist as being filled since birth

 

[LEGO]

That's interesting too, orthodox, but it seems a little too abstract, not particularly supported by scripture, and just the product of some one's imagination.

Not to be mean or offensive. Really, it's just that seems to get into to too much mysticism, when really, the scriptures don't seem to go down that path.

AMEN!

Any question regarding the "fall" of the earth along with Adam, (if you believe that sort of thing) was settled in Genesis in the account of Noah. If you believe that the earth "fell" then you would also have to believe that God "healed" the earth when He declared His covenant with the earth and with Noah "Never again will I destroy the earth... I have set My rainbow in the clouds and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and the earth." and earlier God says, "As long as the earth endures, seed time and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, night and day will never cease." "NEVER AGAIN will I curse the ground because of man..." Seems pretty clear that not only had the earth not "fallen" with Adam, but that God at that moment declared His separation of earth and man in that the earth would be held blamless from that point on and not lumped into any curse upon man for his sins.

The thought that Jesus had to be baptised because He was going out to preach doesn't really agree either. John was there baptising EVERYONE. They weren't all going to be preists or teachers, they hadn't even heard the word of Jesus yet. Why would priesthood have anything to do with the general population? It just doesn't fit. People were being baptised before Jesus came so they weren't doing it for the preisthood, and they weren't doing it (at that time) to follow Christ's example so the preisthood had nothing to do with it.

Christ was sinless. As man however He had to "show" His human equivalent to us as example. Identifying with us in His fully human aspect. It is interesting to note that the word used here for righteousness is, dikaiosune Pronounced dik-ah-yos-oo'-nay, and means equity, (of character or act) - Strongs Number 1343.

Christ never says He NEEDS to be baptized. Did Christ need to suffer? Did Christ need to die? No. It was to have a "High Priest" who was fully experienced in a visible way to the rest of us, as to the not only the sufferings of man and the temptations of man, but as to the way man should live as well. To fulfill ALL righteousness, to be fully equal with man (and straighten us out on a few things along the way) in ALL things, yet sinless.

Three, at least three, basic aspects of Christ are always that what He did or said was to -

Be equal to man - birth, baptism, life, temptations, suffering, death

Show man how to live - teaching and examples and new instruction

show man what was possible through faith - miracles

Christ didn't need to be baptised. He didn't "Holy Spiritize" the water (there's no mention of John or anyone following Christ into the water being filled with this Holy Spirit that Christ filled the water with). He did it, like everything He did, as part of His perfect gift to us.

yours in Christ